Fire Bloom .

[dgalehouse]

I guess you mean me (among others). Here's another version of why I defend Bloom--

 

1. His stewardship of the Rays, who still are the best franchise in MLB at finding and developing skilled players who can win in the toughest division in MLB while spending the lowest amount per win. He was an innovator.

 

2. His system--the one he developed over a period of 11 years. In 2008 he took over all aspects of the Rays' minor league systems, including player evaluation and assignments, expansions of video, strength and conditioning, mental skill initiatives. Chaim Bloom wrote the "Ray's Way" player development manual. I would be remiss if I didn't point out that in 2008 the Rays went to the World Series, so it's clear Chaim Bloom wasn't the only architect of their success.

 

3. The fact that the Rays have been especially good at developing good pitching, the exact thing the Sox have been horrible at.

 

4. The challenge of trying to bridge the immense gap between the Sox way of doing things and the "Ray's Way." For example, DD was hugely successful in creating the 2018 Sox juggernaut (the best Sox team ever) because he basically could buy the missing pieces, which pretty much was the pitching staff, so he went out and bought Price, Sale, Porcello, and Kimbrel. I think John Henry hired Bloom because he wanted a better system for developing players vs. buying them. He has already demonstrated a reluctance to re-sign Manny Ramirez, Jon Lester, Mookie Betts, maybe Bogey and Devers, and probably some others I've forgotten.

 

5. Most of the criticism of Bloom is on specific acquisitions (and non-retentions), which I regard as missing the point even though I myself didn't like losing Renfroe and Schwarber and Iglesias from last year's team, didn't like bringing JBJ back, didn't like how the Barnes caper turned out, etc.

 

6. The view that DD, all by himself and after inheriting a team that had absolutely no talent, singlehandedly assembled the greatest Sox team ever--most of which is bs. He did fix the pitching simply by spending megabucks for it. However, that exact same team won 22 fewer games the very next year and was even worse in 2020, not because Chaim Bloom took over, but because DD's stewardship had been so lousy.

 

7. Bloom's first real season, 2021, was a huge success, despite the truncated Sale season (and his lousy performance in the postseason) and the departures of Kimbrel, Price, and Betts. Unlike DD's first two seasons, 2016 and 2017, the 2021 Sox knew how to win in the postseason--although I hasten to add that, while Bloom did a good job putting it together, DD was the guy who hired Alex Cora.

 

8. I agree this year has been a mess. I think it's because of all of the injuries, but there is also the question of whether the system that Bloom developed so brilliantly for the Rays will work for the Sox--or whether Bloom can create a hybrid of the two systems. The other unknown is how much is John Henry willing to spend on players like Bogey and Devers.

 

Max , I'm just guessing , but my thinking is that you knew nothing about Bloom when he was with the Rays. Probably never even heard of him most of that time. My problem with Bloom is that the Red Sox are in last place , 17 games behind the Yankees. I don't think that is too good.

[dgalehouse]

Do you ever talk baseball anymore or just dwell endlessly on the fact that others have different viewpoints?

 

Notin , If you look back , you will find that my post was in response to Elktonnick . He had posted that this board was very pro Bloom and folks took umbrage with anything that was critical of Bloom. Of course I talk baseball. Are you just trying to goad me ? Why ?

[JDavis76]

Max , I'm just guessing , but my thinking is that you knew nothing about Bloom when he was with the Rays. Probably never even heard of him most of that time. My problem with Bloom is that the Red Sox are in last place , 17 games behind the Yankees. I don't think that is too good.

 

Bingo!!

[moonslav59]

 

7. Bloom's first real season, 2021, was a huge success, despite the truncated Sale season (and his lousy performance in the postseason) and the departures of Kimbrel, Price, and Betts. Unlike DD's first two seasons, 2016 and 2017, the 2021 Sox knew how to win in the postseason--although I hasten to add that, while Bloom did a good job putting it together, DD was the guy who hired Alex Cora.

 

 

Bloom did hire him back after his suspension.

[moonslav59]

Max , I'm just guessing , but my thinking is that you knew nothing about Bloom when he was with the Rays. Probably never even heard of him most of that time. My problem with Bloom is that the Red Sox are in last place , 17 games behind the Yankees. I don't think that is too good.

 

I never want to speak for Max. He does a well enough job, as it is, but I'm sure he and other supporters of Bloom or much of what Bloom has done don't think last place is good either.

 

I don't think those critical of Bloom were not upset when we had the 3rd best record in the AL, back in June.

 

Thye season is not over.

 

Context is needed, IMO, but certainly finishing in last place is not a feather in Bloom's cap or legacy.

[notin]

Pot calling kettle black.

 

No. His potshots at me are direct and succinct…

[jung]

So here is something I touched on yesterday that gnaws at me the more I think about it.

 

There was not one single representative of the Sox Front Office in Houston with the team at THE TRADE DEADLINE.

 

There was a representative of Sox PR there...no shocker that....after all It's the Red Sox. But there are four people listed in that Sox Front office under Bloom and O'Halloran. Not one of the six could be in Houston with the team at the trade deadline? These would be direct reports to O'Halloran who reports to Bloom. So we are not even talking about the rest of Sox administration.

 

Lets see, why could that be?:

- hot in Texas this time of year. My Starbucks Frappaccino would melt before I could finish it

- too busy looking at spread sheets

- welcoming the next no account, can't play prospect to the organization

- they scheduled the FO unity party this week

- my laptop broke

 

What?????? Why????????

Edited August 4, 2022 by jung

[notin]

Notin , If you look back , you will find that my post was in response to Elktonnick . He had posted that this board was very pro Bloom and folks took umbrage with anything that was critical of Bloom. Of course I talk baseball. Are you just trying to goad me ? Why ?

 

No.

 

I’m trying to stop the endless drivel of criticism and potshots of other posters who don’t agree with someone. It’s ridiculous. You don’t like how the current Sox are faring. We get that. You prefer to look at each season as an individual bubble. I don’t agree but also don’t make it personal or try to paint everyone who looks at it that way with a broad brush. (Not counting media; they’re fair game for all.)

 

That Elktonnick did the same thing or if someone posted a pro-Bloom post is not an excuse. Disgree? Absolutely fine and no one will deny you that. If they counter with reasons, legitimate or not, that becomes the basis for discussion.

 

But the endless calling out people for a GM you don’t like or labeling the Bloom Appreciation Society or whatever can go and go fast. It’s older than the boys down at Clancy’s…

[moonslav59]

So here is something I touched on yesterday that gnaws at me the more I think about it.

 

There was not one single representative of the Sox Front Office in Houston with the team at THE TRADE DEADLINE.

 

There was a representative of Sox PR there...no shocker that....after all It's the Red Sox. But there are four people listed in that Sox Front office under Bloom and O'Halloran. Not one of the six could be in Houston with the team at the trade deadline?

 

Lets see, why could that be?:

- hot in Texas this time of year. My Starbucks Frappaccino would melt before I could finish it

- too busy looking at spread sheets

- welcoming the next no account, can't play prospect to the organization

- they scheduled the FO unity party this week

- my laptop broke

 

What?????? Why????????

 

Who cares?

[jung]

Who cares?

 

Great answer. Thank you for your contribution. Honestly, I have never heard of such a thing before. Maybe you have. I haven't and having nobody there makes ZERO sense. Sorry, if you don't get it and don't care.

 

Actually there should always be somebody from the FO with the team TO SEE THE TEAM PLAY. Ya' see, it's a game played on the field by real players. its not a computer game.

Edited August 4, 2022 by jung

[Elktonnick]

No.

 

I’m trying to stop the endless drivel of criticism and potshots of other posters who don’t agree with someone. It’s ridiculous. You don’t like how the current Sox are faring. We get that. You prefer to look at each season as an individual bubble. I don’t agree but also don’t make it personal or try to paint everyone who looks at it that way with a broad brush. (Not counting media; they’re fair game for all.)

 

That Elktonnick did the same thing or if someone posted a pro-Bloom post is not an excuse. Disgree? Absolutely fine and no one will deny you that. If they counter with reasons, legitimate or not, that becomes the basis for discussion.

 

But the endless calling out people for a GM you don’t like or labeling the Bloom Appreciation Society or whatever can go and go fast. It’s older than the boys down at Clancy’s…

Notin, I will be direct with you. You have been doing exactly the same thing to posters with whom you disagree for years. Sometimes you do it just to be snarky. Sometimes you are clever sometimes you are not. But to call out others for behavior you have exhibited ever since I can remember is exactly why I wrote "It was pot calling the kettle black." I was referring to you my snarky friend.

Oh by the way I am not saying you should stop. It is too hot and humid to play golf today and your snark is a good way to stay amused and pass an otherwise boring day

[dgalehouse]

No.

 

I’m trying to stop the endless drivel of criticism and potshots of other posters who don’t agree with someone. It’s ridiculous. You don’t like how the current Sox are faring. We get that. You prefer to look at each season as an individual bubble. I don’t agree but also don’t make it personal or try to paint everyone who looks at it that way with a broad brush. (Not counting media; they’re fair game for all.)

 

That Elktonnick did the same thing or if someone posted a pro-Bloom post is not an excuse. Disgree? Absolutely fine and no one will deny you that. If they counter with reasons, legitimate or not, that becomes the basis for discussion.

 

But the endless calling out people for a GM you don’t like or labeling the Bloom Appreciation Society or whatever can go and go fast. It’s older than the boys down at Clancy’s…

 

The boys down at Clancy's send their regards. They are not too happy with things either.

[moonslav59]

Great answer. Thank you for your contribution. Honestly, I have never heard of such a thing before. Maybe you have. I haven't and having nobody there makes ZERO sense. Sorry, if you don't get it and don't care.

 

Actually there should always be somebody from the FO with the team TO SEE THE TEAM PLAY. Ya' see, it's a game played on the field by real players. its not a computer game.

 

Get what?

 

I've never heard that every team always has a member of the top brass at every road game. Maybe I'm wrong on this.

 

Maybe they had planned on one b eing there, but an emergency came up.

 

I'm sorry, if I come off as naive, but really, I don't care, and don't care that others do or don't.

 

It seems to me that posters are graspin g at anything and everything possible to find wrong with team management.

Edited August 4, 2022 by moonslav59

[Elktonnick]

Get what?

 

I've never heard that every team always has a member of the top brass at every road game.

 

Maybe they had planned on one b eing there, but an emergency came up.

 

I'm sorry, if I come off as naive, but really, I don't care, and don't care that others do or don't.

 

It seems to me that posters are graspin g at anything and everything possible to find wrong with team management.

The overwhelming stream of reporting has indicated that before the trade deadline team morale was very low. We all saw that low morale demonstrated by the sloppy play on the field. Henry Bloom and Co have been repeatedly been criticized by clumsy handling of these personnel issues. Allegedly Vaz was singled out because he was the front offices most vociferous critic for failure to make the needed improvements over the off season.

This is a case of once again of a failure to read the room.

Bloom needs to get a handle on this or he is in a real mess in the coming months.

[dgalehouse]

It's now reported that they had a team meeting today with Bloom in attendance.. Apparently trying to clear the air. So , obviously there were problems in the clubhouse.

[Elktonnick]

It's now reported that they had a team meeting today with Bloom in attendance.. Apparently trying to clear the air. So , obviously there were problems in the clubhouse.

Good first step

[cukes]

Max , I'm just guessing , but my thinking is that you knew nothing about Bloom when he was with the Rays. Probably never even heard of him most of that time. My problem with Bloom is that the Red Sox are in last place , 17 games behind the Yankees. I don't think that is too good.

 

The Rays have something we don't and can't match for young players.....Kevin Cash

[cukes]

Good first step

 

I have been saying all along there is dissension and no morale but everybody defends Cora and this is where it starts

[cukes]

It's only a few posters, but they are very prolific. They almost take any criticism of Bloom personally. I have never seen such blind loyalty shown to any GM, manager or player. It is strange. They are very willing to throw anyone under the proverbial bus to defend Bloom. The Sox performance during his tenure so far does not warrant any praise or loyalty. It's just odd.

 

you are what your record says you are, period, no excuses, we don't even make a showing

[Elktonnick]

I have been saying all along there is dissension and no morale but everybody defends Cora and this is where it starts

I said the same...There is however another school of thought that says Cora did not have the discretion that he has had in the past regarding the lineup. The analytics boys told him who to play.

[Old Red]

Get what?

 

I've never heard that every team always has a member of the top brass at every road game. Maybe I'm wrong on this.

 

Maybe they had planned on one b eing there, but an emergency came up.

 

I'm sorry, if I come off as naive, but really, I don't care, and don't care that others do or don't.

 

It seems to me that posters are graspin g at anything and everything possible to find wrong with team management.

 

When a team is in last place you don’t have to do much grasping to find things wrong, but on the other hand you probably have to do more grasping to find what’s right. Read the room.

[Old Red]

I said the same...There is however another school of thought that says Cora did not have the discretion that he has had in the past regarding the lineup. The analytics boys told him who to play.

 

Like the Great Jim Rice just asked a few minutes ago did analytics ever play baseball? I’m sure there will be comments about consider the source as there usually is.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I have been saying all along there is dissension and no morale but everybody defends Cora and this is where it starts

 

But this year it started at the top, before the season, when the front office dissed the team's two best players with below-market contract offers. Old fans who argue that true professionals shouldn't let such factors affect their morale and distract from winning need to remember these are mostly young, egocentric adult males.

[moonslav59]

I have been saying all along there is dissension and no morale but everybody defends Cora and this is where it starts

 

"Everybody?"

 

WOW!!!

[moonslav59]

I said the same...There is however another school of thought that says Cora did not have the discretion that he has had in the past regarding the lineup. The analytics boys told him who to play.

 

Who has made that point?

 

Another prolific poster?

[Old Red]

I never want to speak for Max. He does a well enough job, as it is, but I'm sure he and other supporters of Bloom or much of what Bloom has done don't think last place is good either.

 

I don't think those critical of Bloom were not upset when we had the 3rd best record in the AL, back in June.

 

Thye season is not over.

 

Context is needed, IMO, but certainly finishing in last place is not a feather in Bloom's cap or legacy.

 

Most knowledgeable Red Sox fans knew June was nothing more than a fantasy month, and the real test was coming in July. Seems the Red Sox flunked that test. You bought in, and we’re giving wildcard standings daily, and saying 1 day at a time.

[vegasbob]

The great majority of posters here have had extensive personal and/or observational experience of team sports over multiple decades . It both was and should have been evident that the attitude/morale of the Sox '22 team was a mess. You know what you are seeing, TalkSoxers.

The veterans were looking at the younger players and seeing a serious deficit of talent that was obvious . The FO did not step up timely either in mid March nor April to address some gaping holes . The run in June was an outlier against primarily marginal teams that faded very quickly when July's AL East opponents arrived, and speculation on the buy/sell trade deadline came alive.

 

Good for Bloom if he stood up in the clubhouse and explained his longer term game plan, to the extent there is one. Let's see how they play for this 4 game series and try to see if it made any difference . Yes, this team can still get hot and jump the Orioles (LMFAO even typing that) , and get a WC slot. Not sure if that would resolve a frustrating season to date or make clear where the Sox may be competing in '23/'24.

[jung]

Get what?

 

I've never heard that every team always has a member of the top brass at every road game. Maybe I'm wrong on this.

 

Maybe they had planned on one b eing there, but an emergency came up.

 

 

I'm sorry, if I come off as naive, but really, I don't care, and don't care that others do or don't.

 

It seems to me that posters are graspin g at anything and everything possible to find wrong with team management.

 

Sorry won't wash. All they needed to do was have one of them get on the charter to Houston. I't ain't rocket science.

 

Stop putting words in poster's mouths, especially mine. It is a bad habit you have. Of the six members of the FO staff, four are direct reports to Bloom and O'Halloran. Bloom and O'Halliran are "top brass". The rest are not. There should always be at least one member of the FO staff traveling with the team to see the team play. There absolutely should have been one member traveling with the team to be with them at the trade deadline. I am sorry you come off as naive too because I know you're not. Putting naïveté aside does not leave attractive options to consider.

[vegasbob]

I said the same...There is however another school of thought that says Cora did not have the discretion that he has had in the past regarding the lineup. The analytics boys told him who to play.

 

And if that is true, then Cora can commiserate with Dave Roberts of the Dodgers and Joe Maddon before he got fired . Both of whom made the same complaint.

[jung]

Why don't we just cut to the chase. Has Beane in Oakland with all his spread sheets or Bloom in Tampa ever won the World Series?

 

They are both using efficiency modeling. Efficiency modeling gets you .....efficiency.....sometimes. It does not appear to yield champions.

 

Bloom's model appears to be biased toward pitching which I suspect is a good thing. Likely how Tampa got to two WS. Still has not won one of these things.

Edited August 4, 2022 by jung