Fire Bloom .

[moonslav59]

Sorry won't wash. All they needed to do was have one of them get on the charter to Houston. I't ain't rocket science.

 

Stop putting words in poster's mouths, especially mine. It is a bad habit you have. Of the six members of the FO staff, four are direct reports to Bloom and O'Halloran. Bloom and O'Halliran are "top brass". The rest are not. There should always be at least one member of the FO staff traveling with the team to see the team play. There absolutely should have been one member traveling with the team to be with them at the trade deadline. I am sorry you come off as naive too because I know you're not. Putting naïveté aside does not leave attractive options to consider.

 

What words did I put in your mouth?

 

Honestly, I did not know it was standard procedure to always have a member of the top brass at every road game.

 

Plus, even if it is, and I'm not sure it is, I don't think it's a big deal not to do it, especially at the trade deadline, when quick decisions need to be made, and having everyone in close proximity is not an illogical thing to do.

 

I'm just not getting why it's such a big deal. I'm not playing naive. (I don't claim to be an expert on every area of MLb operations. I often defer to others in some areas- like MVP on prospects and players from other teams.)

 

If it's not rocket science, explain to me why it is essential, and maybe show me where it is such a no-no for a MLB team to do this.

[Elktonnick]

I do not know nor care if anyone on this forum.has expressed that view in the past. This forum represents an infinitesimal percentage of Red Sox fans and analysts. It is a point of view that is being expressed by some hosts and callers on sports radio. Quite frankly I have not formed my opinion on the matter since I have not heard or read enough to substantiate that point of view.

I posted it only because it is a point of view that has some currency in certain quarters and I.think it is worthy of discussion.

[moonslav59]

Why don't we just cut to the chase. Has Beane in Oakland with all his spread sheets or Bloom in Tampa ever won the World Series?

 

They are both using efficiency modeling. Efficiency modeling gets you .....efficiency.....sometimes. It does not appear to yield champions.

 

One of the major reasons we turned the franchise around and won in 2004 and 2007 was, at least in part, to the change in philosophy towards looking at OBP, forcing SP'ers to go deep into counts and other "spread sheet" aspects not greatly considered before the first ring.

[jung]

What words did I put in your mouth?

 

Honestly, I did not know it was standard procedure to always have a member of the top brass at every road game.

 

Plus, even if it is, and I'm not sure it is, I don't think it's a big deal not to do it, especially at the trade deadline, when quick decisions need to be made, and having everyone in close proximity is not an illogical thing to do.

 

I'm just not getting why it's such a big deal. I'm not playing naive. (I don't claim to be an expert on every area of MLb operations. I often defer to others in some areas- like MVP on prospects and players from other teams.)

 

If it's not rocket science, explain to me why it is essential, and maybe show me where it is such a no-no for a MLB team to do this.

 

I never said "top brass" had to be there for every game. You more than implied that I did. I purposefully distinguished between top brass and direct reports something you appear to have completely ignored. Again I really cannot suggest naïveté on your part as the cause of your oversight. Further while I did not say that "top brass" had to be there for every game if I am not mistaken Dave Dumbrowski was there for every game, road and home.

Edited August 4, 2022 by jung

[Elktonnick]

The Rays have something we don't and can't match for young players.....Kevin Cash

 

I never said "top brass" had to be there for every game. You more than implied that I did. Further while I did not say that "top brass" had to be there for every game if I am not mistaken Dave Dumbrowski was there for every game, road and home.

He wss at every game I attended. Sat two rows behind at one game. Great seats!

[moonslav59]

I never said "top brass" had to be there for every game. You more than implied that I did. I purposefully distinguished between top brass and direct reports something you appear to have completely ignored. Again I really cannot suggest naïveté on your part as the cause of your oversight. Further while I did not say that "top brass" had to be there for every game if I am not mistaken Dave Dumbrowski was there for every game, road and home.

 

Okay, I thought someone from the FO and "top brass" were pretty interchangeable, but you are right. There is a clear distinction. I did not intend to change the meaning of your post. I'm sorry.

 

To be totally honest, I was never aware teams always send a member of the FO to every road game. I did not know DD attended every game or sent someone in his place. It does make some sense, I guess, but I don't see it as a significant mistake or something to bring up.

 

I'm not saying I know better than you or others, especially on issues like this, but it's not something I really pay attention to or think it matters all that much. If someone enlightens me on to why it is an essential thing to do, I can be persuaded to think it was a mistake. I will say, I doubt I'll e ver be convinced it was a big enough mistake to bring up.

 

I'd like to see the question posed to Bloom to hear his answer.

[sk7326]

Why don't we just cut to the chase. Has Beane in Oakland with all his spread sheets or Bloom in Tampa ever won the World Series?

 

They are both using efficiency modeling. Efficiency modeling gets you .....efficiency.....sometimes. It does not appear to yield champions.

 

Bloom's model appears to be biased toward pitching which I suspect is a good thing. Likely how Tampa got to two WS. Still has not won one of these things.

 

Who is running the Dodgers?

[jung]

Who is running the Dodgers?

 

Who cares....the Dodgers are run like a big market team....which is how the Red Sox used to be run and should be run.

[jung]

Dare I say we can't help but get runs out of this

[sk7326]

Who cares....the Dodgers are run like a big market team....which is how the Red Sox used to be run and should be run.

 

Now - I agree with you. But the Dodgers are using the same spreadsheets the Rays do. It ain't the spreadsheets - it's leveraging the money hammer.

[jung]

Now - I agree with you. But the Dodgers are using the same spreadsheets the Rays do. It ain't the spreadsheets - it's leveraging the money hammer.

 

Bloom has never had the money hammer before, likely does not know how to use it and I seriously doubt Henry brought him here to use it now.

 

Funny, Cherries did not know how to use the money hammer well either but was the opposite of Bloom IMO. Cherries spent like a drunken sailer and he did it quickly but not well.

[notin]

Notin, I will be direct with you. You have been doing exactly the same thing to posters with whom you disagree for years. Sometimes you do it just to be snarky. Sometimes you are clever sometimes you are not. But to call out others for behavior you have exhibited ever since I can remember is exactly why I wrote "It was pot calling the kettle black." I was referring to you my snarky friend.

Oh by the way I am not saying you should stop. It is too hot and humid to play golf today and your snark is a good way to stay amused and pass an otherwise boring day

 

I could probably defend plenty of my comments in this regard, but certainly I can cross the line. Overall I can call that criticism fair…

[notin]

And diplomatic. Well done, Elk. There will be no return volley…

[sk7326]

Bloom has never had the money hammer before, likely does not know how to use it and I seriously doubt Henry brought him here to use it now.

 

Funny, Cherries did not know how to use the money hammer well either but was the opposite of Bloom IMO. Cherries spent like a drunken sailer and he did it quickly but not well.

 

I think when you get to a certain $$ level - it really has more to do with ownership. Ownership asked Cherington to get the top available position player FAs in a particular offseason and he did - they were both extremely high risk but the boss wants you to do it, you do whatever.

 

For the most part the Sox GMs have all done pretty good jobs within the framework of what ownership asked of them.

[moonslav59]

Who is running the Dodgers?

 

Who is running the Astros?

[moonslav59]

Who cares....the Dodgers are run like a big market team....which is how the Red Sox used to be run and should be run.

 

That's the whole point. Bloom is not choosing to go stingy. Henry is, and before you wish he'd be replaced, think again.

[Elktonnick]

And diplomatic. Well done, Elk. There will be no return volley…

In the spirit of bonhomme I admit that I am guilty too.

[Old Red]

That's the whole point. Bloom is not choosing to go stingy. Henry is, and before you wish he'd be replaced, think again.

 

Everyone knows that JH has the checkbook, but Bloom is the one making the deals.

[sk7326]

That's the whole point. Bloom is not choosing to go stingy. Henry is, and before you wish he'd be replaced, think again.

 

The questions I have about the big market is less about FA and whatever - the Sox are not the only ownership who treat the tax limit like a hard cap. That was the whole point of the lockout after all.

 

But are the Red Sox pouring money into the areas that are NOT subject to those limits - the analytics staff and the scouting and development budget. The Dodgers advantage is not that they can sign whatever player they want. (and I'll use the Dodgers since the Red Sox as a market - considering size, loyalty and pockets of fan base, owning media - is much more analogous to them than the Astros) But their machine is built because they have found and developed players - even without premium draft picks.

[jung]

That's the whole point. Bloom is not choosing to go stingy. Henry is, and before you wish he'd be replaced, think again.

 

 

Why should not offer some sympathy to Bloom for dancing to Henry's tune and taking home buckets of cash for it. This is not going to yield a team we will like or have any empathy for IMO, nor will it yield a WS Champion IMO. Henry has done well here and has done well by the fans for much of his tenure. It might actually be time for Henry to go.

 

There is one thing I will say for this mess, MLB is governing toward mediocrity.....so it could well be that teams building toward mediocrity is in the same spirit. That said, I don't think the trend is good for baseball and I suspect we are going to end up with teams that have no choice but to hope for mediocrity, teams that plan to mediocrity and teams that plan to greatness. As a fan count me in the plan to greatness crowd. That is not where the Sox are going at this point.

[jung]

The questions I have about the big market is less about FA and whatever - the Sox are not the only ownership who treat the tax limit like a hard cap. That was the whole point of the lockout after all.

 

But are the Red Sox pouring money into the areas that are NOT subject to those limits - the analytics staff and the scouting and development budget. The Dodgers advantage is not that they can sign whatever player they want. (and I'll use the Dodgers since the Red Sox as a market - considering size, loyalty and pockets of fan base, owning media - is much more analogous to them than the Astros) But their machine is built because they have found and developed players - even without premium draft picks.

 

 

IMO, the best baseball organizations from the fans perspective build a decent farm system that they are willing to ravage on occasion but that they for the most part use to develop players. Then if they have the money hammer they use it to bring in the big guns they need to actually have a contending team.

 

My biggest recent disappointment with Sox management was boxing themselves into having no ability whatsoever to keep Mookie. Plus they sort of just stunned themselves at the point of having worked themselves into that mess. Bad enough that we were stunned. But Sox Management sort of just shrugged its shoulders and let it all happen right in front of them.

 

I do think there is something underpinning that decision that is somewhat disconcerting. The Sox were well willing to allow a Latin player, Ortiz be the face of the franchise and the team leader. Not sure they were comfortable with a Black American in that role.

[jung]

Geezus, Mike Hazen's wife Nicole dead at 45 of brain cancer. Just terrible......whenever I hear something like that I seriously question why this old goat Jung is still walking' around. Sympathies to the family. Very sorry to hear it.

[Old Red]

IMO, the best baseball organizations from the fans perspective build a decent farm system that they are willing to ravage on occasion but that they for the most part use to develop players. Then if they have the money hammer they use it to bring in the big guns they need to actually have a contending team.

 

My biggest recent disappointment with Sox management was boxing themselves into having no ability whatsoever to keep Mookie. Plus they sort of just stunned themselves at the point of having worked themselves into that mess. Bad enough that we were stunned. But Sox Management sort of just shrugged its shoulders and let it all happen right in front of them.

 

I do think there is something underpinning that decision that is somewhat disconcerting. The Sox were well willing to allow a Latin player, Ortiz be the face of the franchise and the team leader. Not sure they were comfortable with a Black American in that role.

 

Wow! Interesting take.

[sk7326]

IMO, the best baseball organizations from the fans perspective build a decent farm system that they are willing to ravage on occasion but that they for the most part use to develop players. Then if they have the money hammer they use it to bring in the big guns they need to actually have a contending team.

 

My biggest recent disappointment with Sox management was boxing themselves into having no ability whatsoever to keep Mookie. Plus they sort of just stunned themselves at the point of having worked themselves into that mess. Bad enough that we were stunned. But Sox Management sort of just shrugged its shoulders and let it all happen right in front of them.

 

I do think there is something underpinning that decision that is somewhat disconcerting. The Sox were well willing to allow a Latin player, Ortiz be the face of the franchise and the team leader. Not sure they were comfortable with a Black American in that role.

 

I actually think the race has very little to do with it here. Betts was the most talented player the team has had since Williams and a real triumph for the scouting and development group. I don't think they would run from that.

 

I think it's much more fundamental - the franchise has largely been VERY reflexive about seasons that were not amazing. The 2010-2012 stretch was the most latent of these examples ... but the 2018-2022 one is up there. Interestingly, the "coolest heads" the team has been after a disappointing season was the 2006-7 offseason and that still involved their GM leaving the team. Now the wounds are sated a bit - he team has clearly had an amazing record turning its playoff appearances into champioships - but there has been a lot of volatility. It is hard not to read the Betts trade in part as ownership's hissy fit because the team did not repeat in 2019. Really the darkly funny part is the team not being able to show Betts the giant bag after cheerfully re-upping Sale, a deal which looked dicey the second the ink was dry.

[sk7326]

Geezus, Mike Hazen's wife Nicole dead at 45 of brain cancer. Just terrible......whenever I hear something like that I seriously question why this old goat Jung is still walking' around. Sympathies to the family. Very sorry to hear it.

 

That is awful. I remember Hazen from the South Shore League All Star Team when he was at Abington High School. (I knew who he was and whatever, I did not "know him")

[jung]

I actually think the race has very little to do with it here. Betts was the most talented player the team has had since Williams and a real triumph for the scouting and development group. I don't think they would run from that.

 

I think it's much more fundamental - the franchise has largely been VERY reflexive about seasons that were not amazing. The 2010-2012 stretch was the most latent of these examples ... but the 2018-2022 one is up there. Interestingly, the "coolest heads" the team has been after a disappointing season was the 2006-7 offseason and that still involved their GM leaving the team. Now the wounds are sated a bit - he team has clearly had an amazing record turning its playoff appearances into champioships - but there has been a lot of volatility. It is hard not to read the Betts trade in part as ownership's hissy fit because the team did not repeat in 2019. Really the darkly funny part is the team not being able to show Betts the giant bag after cheerfully re-upping Sale, a deal which looked dicey the second the ink was dry.

 

Hey I remember arguing with people here who wanted to anoint JD the team leader with Ortiz leaving. I said NOPE, this is Mookie's team. I got lots of pushback on that and don't think Sam Kennedy and the business side of the house were oblivious to that pushback.

[jung]

Hernandez seems to be a feast of famine pitcher. He either has a great inning or gets bombed.

[moonslav59]

The questions I have about the big market is less about FA and whatever - the Sox are not the only ownership who treat the tax limit like a hard cap. That was the whole point of the lockout after all.

 

But are the Red Sox pouring money into the areas that are NOT subject to those limits - the analytics staff and the scouting and development budget. The Dodgers advantage is not that they can sign whatever player they want. (and I'll use the Dodgers since the Red Sox as a market - considering size, loyalty and pockets of fan base, owning media - is much more analogous to them than the Astros) But their machine is built because they have found and developed players - even without premium draft picks.

 

Good question. I hope we are, but who keeps track.

 

The TB model has been brought to LA, HOU and BOS.

 

HOU has not kept several stars, yet they remain on or near the top.

 

Maybe, someday...

[moonslav59]

Hernandez seems to be a feast of famine pitcher. He either has a great inning or gets bombed.

 

The guy has one of MLB's best K/9 rates ever, after a small sample size start to his career, but what good is it?

 

MLB History (80+ IP career) K/9

 

15.4 Josh Hader

14.8 Edwin Diaz

14.8 A Chapman

14.7 Devin Williams

14.6 C Kimbrel

14.5 D Betances

14.4 Karinchak

14.2 DHern

 

 

[MADSTORK]

Why don't we just cut to the chase. Has Beane in Oakland with all his spread sheets or Bloom in Tampa ever won the World Series?

 

They are both using efficiency modeling. Efficiency modeling gets you .....efficiency.....sometimes. It does not appear to yield champions.

 

Bloom's model appears to be biased toward pitching which I suspect is a good thing. Likely how Tampa got to two WS. Still has not won one of these things.

 

Like I said, moneyball or whatever ball these front office nerds are playing hasn’t won a championship