Fire Bloom .

[notin]

There's about a quintet of people here on TalkSox that are already raising the sea levels.

 

Just don’t forget the unicorns this time!!

[moonslav59]

This is a fair assessment. The only thing I question is what defines "unrealistic expectations."

 

While it's unreasonable to expect World Series teams every year -- especially with limited prospect capital for trades and budget limits -- is it really unrealistic for loyal hoards of fans of a big-market club that charges top-of-the-industry spectator fees to expect the franchise to invest enough each year to legitimately contend for a postseason berth?

 

To be honest, considering basically no farm help for 5 years, a mandated trade of Betts w Price, massive new spending budget cuts for 3 years (counting 2019) and declining production or a ton of IL time from just about every vet- even some still in prime, how can expectations be higher than what the team gave us in 2019 (84-78?) One could argue coming close would be a surprise.

 

I do think, starting with the Story signing, expectations should have risen, somewhat. With still no contributing farm help until this year, I'm not sure 84-78 should have been the expectation, either.

 

Looking at the results and lower expectations, I don't think grading Bloom would be as harsh as we see here. The 2021 season, to me, was a big plus. 2022 was a let down, but to me, not by as much as '21 was a plus. 2023 is still an incomplete grade.

 

All in all I would not say Bloom has not done a good job on the MLB roster, but he hasn't been horrible, either- within the context I brought up. I'd give a C, maybe.

The farm grade is tougher to call, but it looks like a pretty solid B, to me. We've already seen Whitlock, Wink and Wong from Bloom's farm, despite mostly HS draftees.

The long term budget looks way better than it did in 2019, 2020, 2021 and 2022, so I have to give a grade higher than C. Of course, Story could be a bust, and Yoshida and Devers could be letdowns, but it looks better than Price, Sale, Porcello and others.

 

[Dipre]

The Story signin is my one true gripe with this regime. And we can't be sure it wasn't ownership mandated to "keep the product relevant". But Bloom has demonstrated weak aptitude filling the edges of the roster through FA, and it makes sense, since that wasn't his MO with the Rays anyway.

[moonslav59]

Bloom is staying, and they won't spend until they're sure that they can sustain a winner over a long period of time, like the Dodgers and Astros. Everyone can cry until their tears flood the world like the tale of Noah's Ark, but that's what's going to happen.

 

That's how I have seen it since the salary dump before 2020.

 

I had hopes we'd think that time was 2023, but we decided to reset. Had we not gone over in 2022, maybe we might have splurged.

 

I'm not going to say 2024 should be the year, and maybe we wait for Mayer to go large and long. That might be 2025.

[Hugh2]

To switch from being a Sox fan to another team?

 

Wow! I'm not hearing that on New England radio talk shows.

 

There are two types of people. Those who analyze everything Bloom does and recognize each move separately, there's good and there's bad. Obviously, when you have more bad you have bad results.

 

Then there are those who just say "team bad Bloom bad everything bloom do bad bloom do thing so things must be bad because Bloom bad, bad bad Bloom bad" Which is fine, but don't tell the rest of us that we are Bloom lovers just because we don't hate every single thing the team does by default.

[moonslav59]

The Story signin is my one true gripe with this regime. And we can't be sure it wasn't ownership mandated to "keep the product relevant". But Bloom has demonstrated weak aptitude filling the edges of the roster through FA, and it makes sense, since that wasn't his MO with the Rays anyway.

 

I thought the Story signing made sense, even figuring he might miss a year, as I felt they knew all along Bogey was not coming back.

 

Story at SS from 2022-2024 maybe missing a season with elbow surgery.

Story at 2B from 2025-2027 as Mayer takes SS.

 

$140M/5 would not have been bad, if Story hit okay and fielded close to GG levels at SS or 2B.

 

All in all, it looks like a bust out of the gate. It was his first big signing, and he missed.

 

Yoshida looks okay, despite him likely being best used as a DH.

 

Devers is looking more questionable, but I still like the move, especially in light of losing Betts and Bogey.

 

[Dipre]

Devers is half a season into a massive contract and has recovered nicely from a brutal stretch. In a couple of years, his contract will look like a bargain, even if he has to be moved off of 3B, because of his offensive profile.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

To be honest, considering basically no farm help for 5 years, a mandated trade of Betts w Price, massive new spending budget cuts for 3 years (counting 2019) and declining production or a ton of IL time from just about every vet- even some still in prime, how can expectations be higher than what the team gave us in 2019 (84-78?) One could argue coming close would be a surprise.

 

I do think, starting with the Story signing, expectations should have risen, somewhat. With still no contributing farm help until this year, I'm not sure 84-78 should have been the expectation, either.

 

Looking at the results and lower expectations, I don't think grading Bloom would be as harsh as we see here. The 2021 season, to me, was a big plus. 2022 was a let down, but to me, not by as much as '21 was a plus. 2023 is still an incomplete grade.

 

All in all I would not say Bloom has not done a good job on the MLB roster, but he hasn't been horrible, either- within the context I brought up. I'd give a C, maybe.

The farm grade is tougher to call, but it looks like a pretty solid B, to me. We've already seen Whitlock, Wink and Wong from Bloom's farm, despite mostly HS draftees.

The long term budget looks way better than it did in 2019, 2020, 2021 and 2022, so I have to give a grade higher than C. Of course, Story could be a bust, and Yoshida and Devers could be letdowns, but it looks better than Price, Sale, Porcello and others.

 

 

I'm still going back to actual fan expectations, not analysis of a CBO's inherited system or ownership mandates/restrictions.

 

The expectations for the six-state region of New England baseball fans should always be for their Red Sox to contend for a playoff spot. Not .500 or just over .500...

 

... and for the people who run the team to use resources -- every year -- to at least sustain that goal. Without the BS. You think New York fans ever disagree with the Yankees signing expensive free agents or trading prospects or going over the competitive balance tax?

[Bellhorn04]

Bloom is staying, and they won't spend until they're sure that they can sustain a winner over a long period of time, like the Dodgers and Astros. Everyone can cry until their tears flood the world like the tale of Noah's Ark, but that's what's going to happen.

 

Yes, I believe you're right.

[Bellhorn04]

Devers is half a season into a massive contract and has recovered nicely from a brutal stretch. In a couple of years, his contract will look like a bargain, even if he has to be moved off of 3B, because of his offensive profile.

 

Probably, although a couple of years after that couple of years, it might not.

 

(I have no problem with that signing at all, was very happy they got it done.)

[sk7326]

The Story signin is my one true gripe with this regime. And we can't be sure it wasn't ownership mandated to "keep the product relevant". But Bloom has demonstrated weak aptitude filling the edges of the roster through FA, and it makes sense, since that wasn't his MO with the Rays anyway.

 

Meh. The Story signing was okay in that you don't anticipate his arm would fall off his body.

 

The team doesn't want to spend until they can sustain a winner - but is there evidence they are spending on the infrastructure to make that so? Going to the Tampa example, they spend a TON on their scouting ... largest pro scouting staff in baseball. Now this stuff is harder to know - but you'd like to see evidence the Red Sox are using their financial muscle somewhere.

[Dipre]

Meh. The Story signing was okay in that you don't anticipate his arm would fall off his body.

 

The team doesn't want to spend until they can sustain a winner - but is there evidence they are spending on the infrastructure to make that so? Going to the Tampa example, they spend a TON on their scouting ... largest pro scouting staff in baseball. Now this stuff is harder to know - but you'd like to see evidence the Red Sox are using their financial muscle somewhere.

 

The way their drafting strategy is being executed, I think there's evidence to this being the exact case. They're drafting athletes with profiles that would allow them to play in up-the-middle positions and whose tools have mostly outperformed their initial scouting reports (Mayer's ability to hit the other way with authority, Rafaela's defensive profile and arm, Yorke's HIT tool profiling as elite). They're doing a ton of work on these kids, and I've even seen it recognized from people who work with young baseball prospects here in DR, who think the Sox will be very good for years if they keep the course. Not industry opinions, but they have some value.

[notin]

The way their drafting strategy is being executed, I think there's evidence to this being the exact case. They're drafting athletes with profiles that would allow them to play in up-the-middle positions and whose tools have mostly outperformed their initial scouting reports (Mayer's ability to hit the other way with authority, Rafaela's defensive profile and arm, Yorke's HIT tool profiling as elite). They're doing a ton of work on these kids, and I've even seen it recognized from people who work with young baseball prospects here in DR, who think the Sox will be very good for years if they keep the course. Not industry opinions, but they have some value.

 

Rafaela isn’t a good example as he was signed by DD as an IFA and not drafted by Bloom. But Mikey Romero and Roman Anthony might help make your point…

[Bellhorn04]

To be honest, considering basically no farm help for 5 years

 

Wouldn't you say there's farm help in Bloom's Year 4?

[Maxbialystock]

I'm still going back to actual fan expectations, not analysis of a CBO's inherited system or ownership mandates/restrictions.

 

The expectations for the six-state region of New England baseball fans should always be for their Red Sox to contend for a playoff spot. Not .500 or just over .500...

 

... and for the people who run the team to use resources -- every year -- to at least sustain that goal. Without the BS. You think New York fans ever disagree with the Yankees signing expensive free agents or trading prospects or going over the competitive balance tax?

 

I think any Yankees fan with half a brain is disgusted that, since John Henry arrived, the Sox have won four WS to the Yankees one. I agree they don't mind ownership "going over the competitive balance tax," but also believe they think ownership is stupid for not getting better results.

 

Since John Henry arrived, it's clear the Sox have ownership/leadership have been smarter. I've even willing to admit that bringing in DD to get that amazing 2018 season was smart.

 

But for the same reason I also think dumping him after the disaster of the 2019 season, combined with Mookie becoming a free agent, was the right move. Love Mookie, but it's a fact that one great player--see Mike Trout of the LA Angels who has contributed way more to the Angels than Mookie ever will for the Sox and Dodgers combined--does not make a team.

 

I've been a steady Sox fan since 1949, so I also disagree that Sox fans have always insisted that ownership spend top dollar for players. In fact, for most of the 86 year drought, we weren't that unhappy with a winning season. Winning four WS in 20 years was unthinkable. You, sir, are spoiled rotten by the John Henry era and are now--and this boggles the mind--turning on it.

[Dipre]

Rafaela isn’t a good example as he was signed by DD as an IFA and not drafted by Bloom. But Mikey Romero and Roman Anthony might help make your point…

 

But he has been developed by Bloom. When a certain subsect of prospects all have certain tools that have outperformed their initial projections, it speaks to a solid development system.

[Dipre]

I think any Yankees fan with half a brain is disgusted that, since John Henry arrived, the Sox have won four WS to the Yankees one. I agree they don't mind ownership "going over the competitive balance tax," but also believe they think ownership is stupid for not getting better results.

 

Since John Henry arrived, it's clear the Sox have ownership/leadership have been smarter. I've even willing to admit that bringing in DD to get that amazing 2018 season was smart.

 

But for the same reason I also think dumping him after the disaster of the 2019 season, combined with Mookie becoming a free agent, was the right move. Love Mookie, but it's a fact that one great player--see Mike Trout of the LA Angels who has contributed way more to the Angels than Mookie ever will for the Sox and Dodgers combined--does not make a team.

 

I've been a steady Sox fan since 1949, so I also disagree that Sox fans have always insisted that ownership spend top dollar for players. In fact, for most of the 86 year drought, we weren't that unhappy with a winning season. Winning four WS in 20 years was unthinkable. You, sir, are spoiled rotten by the John Henry era and are now--and this boggles the mind--turning on it.

 

Preach, brother, preach!

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I think any Yankees fan with half a brain is disgusted that, since John Henry arrived, the Sox have won four WS to the Yankees one. I agree they don't mind ownership "going over the competitive balance tax," but also believe they think ownership is stupid for not getting better results.

 

Since John Henry arrived, it's clear the Sox have ownership/leadership have been smarter. I've even willing to admit that bringing in DD to get that amazing 2018 season was smart.

 

But for the same reason I also think dumping him after the disaster of the 2019 season, combined with Mookie becoming a free agent, was the right move. Love Mookie, but it's a fact that one great player--see Mike Trout of the LA Angels who has contributed way more to the Angels than Mookie ever will for the Sox and Dodgers combined--does not make a team.

 

I've been a steady Sox fan since 1949, so I also disagree that Sox fans have always insisted that ownership spend top dollar for players. In fact, for most of the 86 year drought, we weren't that unhappy with a winning season. Winning four WS in 20 years was unthinkable. You, sir, are spoiled rotten by the John Henry era and are now--and this boggles the mind--turning on it.

 

And you didn't read my posts -- or just took lines out of context. I never said the Red Sox should win the World Series every year or even spend top dollar to try to win it all every year.

 

Expectations in Red Sox Nation should always be to "contend for a playoff spot." Not pretend.

 

I've been a fan for most of the same decades you have, and you know what spoiled me? Not John Henry's rings, but the fact that the Sox were just about always good -- with a chance to be great -- with homegrown stars they paid to keep that fans could identify with and root for, from '67 to the end of last century. In that timeline -- my life as a fan -- Boston didn't finish dead last six times like they have in the past dozen years, nor floundered for as long as they have in the Bloom Era, with his revolving roster of mediocrity.

[Maxbialystock]

And you didn't read my posts -- or just took lines out of context. I never said the Red Sox should win the World Series every year or even spend top dollar to try to win it all every year.

 

Expectations in Red Sox Nation should always be to "contend for a playoff spot." Not pretend.

 

I've been a fan for most of the same decades you have, and you know what spoiled me? Not John Henry's rings, but the fact that the Sox were just about always good -- with a chance to be great -- with homegrown stars they paid to keep that fans could identify with and root for, from '67 to the end of last century. In that timeline -- my life as a fan -- Boston didn't finish dead last six times like they have in the past dozen years, nor floundered for as long as they have in the Bloom Era, with his revolving roster of mediocrity.

 

Good answer. I didn't see/read about the expectation of contending--with which I do not disagree. However, "dead last" means something a little different these days because it's just 5th place in the toughest division in MLB.

 

Also, as I have said before, I don't count the 2020 season, so this is Bloom's 3d season. His first real season, 2021, the Sox made it to the ALCS. It took DD three seasons and a ton of spending to get to the ALCS in 2018.

 

Last year, Bloom's 2d, the Sox bombed: not just last in the AL East, but a losing season.

 

This season, on the other hand, is far from over. Plus injuries have been severe and never more so than right now with Sale, Houck, Whitlock, Schreiber, Story, and Chang out.

 

On the other hand, we have also seen Dugo improve, especially in RF, as well as Duran and Casas step up--to say nothing of Paxton's 9 starts for the first time since 2019, Yoshida's .861 OPS (highest on the team), and Wong's emergence as one of the best defensive catchers in MLB.

 

So, despite the injuries and playing in the toughest division in the history of MLB divisions, the Sox are 1 game over .500, definitely in contention for a wild card slot, and looking forward to the return of Story, Chang, Whitlock, Houck, and Schreiber by 1 August and very possibly Sale by early August. Just in time for the crucial final two months of this season.

 

I think one of us sees the glass as half full and the other half empty.

[dgalehouse]

I do give Bloom credit for improving the bullpen this year. That had been a glaring weakness for the past four seasons. But overall, the unhappiness with Bloom is justified and understandable. He has reshaped the team to his liking and the results have not been good. That is the plain truth. Baseball is a game. The object is to win. No amount of spin can change that.

[Dipre]

No one here is spinning the fact that this team is not well built, and has underperformed. Refer me to one post by anyone here that has stated that please.

[moonslav59]

Good answer. I didn't see/read about the expectation of contending--with which I do not disagree. However, "dead last" means something a little different these days because it's just 5th place in the toughest division in MLB.

 

Also, as I have said before, I don't count the 2020 season, so this is Bloom's 3d season. His first real season, 2021, the Sox made it to the ALCS. It took DD three seasons and a ton of spending to get to the ALCS in 2018.

 

Last year, Bloom's 2d, the Sox bombed: not just last in the AL East, but a losing season.

 

This season, on the other hand, is far from over. Plus injuries have been severe and never more so than right now with Sale, Houck, Whitlock, Schreiber, Story, and Chang out.

 

On the other hand, we have also seen Dugo improve, especially in RF, as well as Duran and Casas step up--to say nothing of Paxton's 9 starts for the first time since 2019, Yoshida's .861 OPS (highest on the team), and Wong's emergence as one of the best defensive catchers in MLB.

 

So, despite the injuries and playing in the toughest division in the history of MLB divisions, the Sox are 1 game over .500, definitely in contention for a wild card slot, and looking forward to the return of Story, Chang, Whitlock, Houck, and Schreiber by 1 August and very possibly Sale by early August. Just in time for the crucial final two months of this season.

 

I think one of us sees the glass as half full and the other half empty.

 

I expected dead last in 2020, maybe 4th in ‘21. The good ‘21 season got me overly excited about what bloom and Cora had done and we’re doing, but if you asked me what our combined record would be back before 2020 and for the next 4 years, I’d probably have said about .500 would be good, as long as the farm, foundation and budget were looking better. If I knew the spending would be like it was, I’d have said under but near .500 would be a plus.

[moonslav59]

No one here is spinning the fact that this team is not well built, and has underperformed. Refer me to one post by anyone here that has stated that please.

 

I’ve asked for one name countless times. It’s total strawman.

 

Many assume by trying to add context you are praising Sox leadership.

 

IMO, Bloom was given 3 major tasks:

1. Rebuild the farm and establish a continually replenishing farm system. Grade: incomplete, although I did not expect results like Whitlock, Wink and Wong, so quickly.

2. Fix the budget and phase out long term deadweight deals. Grade: incomplete, although the Story signing looks like it could go that way.

3. Put reasonably competitive teams on the field, starting in 2022- not ring teams but decent teams fans should want to watch. Grade D, although the 2021 surprise brings it up to a C, to me.

 

I had thought 2023 would show more improvement than it has, so far, but we are just half way through the season. Looking at all the injuries, almost exclusively in just two areas: P and SS, I think .500 seems reasonable.

 

This is not taking Bloom off the hook. Despite the reset mandate, he has enough resources and finally some help from the farm to expect a little better than .500.

[Old Red]

And you didn't read my posts -- or just took lines out of context. I never said the Red Sox should win the World Series every year or even spend top dollar to try to win it all every year.

 

Expectations in Red Sox Nation should always be to "contend for a playoff spot." Not pretend.

 

I've been a fan for most of the same decades you have, and you know what spoiled me? Not John Henry's rings, but the fact that the Sox were just about always good -- with a chance to be great -- with homegrown stars they paid to keep that fans could identify with and root for, from '67 to the end of last century. In that timeline -- my life as a fan -- Boston didn't finish dead last six times like they have in the past dozen years, nor floundered for as long as they have in the Bloom Era, with his revolving roster of mediocrity.

 

Well said, and more in line with was is thought, and said in many other parts in Red Sox Nation.

[Hugh2]

But he has been developed by Bloom. When a certain subsect of prospects all have certain tools that have outperformed their initial projections, it speaks to a solid development system.

 

Personally I think GM/Presidents/whatever title you want to give the director of operations get WAY too much credit for player development. Aside from special cases like Yoshida, Ohtani, Dice-K or the first pick in a draft they probably never heard of half these guys until they're signed.

 

I will say this however, people were very quick to give Dave D. credit for "not trading" the right prospects which he inherited. E.G. Devers, Benintendi. If that holds true in a balanced world, shouldn't Bloom get credit for "holding" on to Bello????

[Old Red]

Personally I think GM/Presidents/whatever title you want to give the director of operations get WAY too much credit for player development. Aside from special cases like Yoshida, Ohtani, Dice-K or the first pick in a draft they probably never heard of half these guys until they're signed.

 

I will say this however, people were very quick to give Dave D. credit for "not trading" the right prospects which he inherited. E.G. Devers, Benintendi. If that holds true in a balanced world, shouldn't Bloom get credit for "holding" on to Bello????

 

NO!

[Hugh2]

NO!

 

If that’s fair, and perhaps it is. The only moves Dave is really good for is Kimberly and Sale. And he extended Sale.

 

Dave didn’t build this team, he put the cherry on top.

[Old Red]

If that’s fair, and perhaps it is. The only moves Dave is really good for is Kimberly and Sale. And he extended Sale.

 

Dave didn’t build this team, he put the cherry on top.

Sale, and Kimbrel were big trades that good prospects got traded for. What big trades has Bloom made that a prospect like a Bello would get traded for?

[Bellhorn04]

If that’s fair, and perhaps it is. The only moves Dave is really good for is Kimberly and Sale. And he extended Sale.

 

Dave didn’t build this team, he put the cherry on top.

 

JD Martinez. 2018 deadline trades for Eovaldi and Pearce were golden. Kinsler was actually a good move too, but of course everyone remembers the error in Game 3 of the WS.

 

Pomeranz wasn't great but he wasn't awful. The trades for Thornburg and Smith went bust but were not bad ideas.

 

Dave was actually responsible for the great Ryan Brasier too.

[notin]

But he has been developed by Bloom. When a certain subsect of prospects all have certain tools that have outperformed their initial projections, it speaks to a solid development system.

 

If you like, but the subject was the drafting under Bloom, which was why Rafaela didn’t belong…