Fire Bloom .

[notin]

Nobody knows for sure. There was talk about a lack of communication or whatever.

 

And we don't know what really went down with Betts.

 

It's omerta, man.

 

And let's not forget these are the same guys who disposed of Epstein, Francona and Cherington in the 8 years before they did it to DD.

 

 

It is worth wondering why Sale, injured at the time, managed to get a better deal than Bogaerts. If you flip those deals (i.e. sign Bogaerts for 5 years $145mill and Sale for 6 years $120 mil), the Sox likely still have both players…

[moonslav59]

I don't see any evidence that Bloom has attempted to build an organization under him that is the equivalent of what the Rays have. Why not? Is he afraid to see it get around that he is not the genius behind how the Rays are constructed year after year....that it is actually a total organizational effort? Bloom was disallowed from talking to Rays staff and offer any of them jobs till 2021. But its 2023 now. Still nothing that I have seen.

 

It looks to me like the Sox Brass bought in on Bloom and not on the Rays systemic methodology and I simply do not think Bloom is some sort of baseball genius. DD is a pure baseball guy. If you buy in on DD he will rape your farm system, spend lots of your money and give you a genuine shot at the title. Does not make DD a genius either but it does make him a guy with a proven track record for championships. I don't think Bloom can give you a reasonable shot at a title and I don't think he can do what Tampa does without the entire top to bottom organization that Tampa has or at least a very reasonable facsimile of it.

 

Worth noting that Tampa has no titles. Didn't before....don't have any now. But they play an exciting brand of baseball that keeps you watching. Had they a decent baseball market in Tampa I expect they would pack the place out especially with the rules changes. Maybe they have no titles because it takes big important players doing their thing in big moments in the post season to actually win one of these things and maybe that is where the Rays deficiencies come home to roost. But the more accepted thinking is that you get to the post season and the hottest team wins the thing. Not sure I have ever really agreed with that. But that is the accepted thinking. I do think the Rays can adapt to the rules changes faster than other teams. That might help put them over the top.

 

And actually I don't think its money that has prevented Bloom from achieving some measure of success here as much as its an inability of the Sox brass to actually make a definitive decision beyond bringing in one guy....Bloom. Bloom maybe does not have his hands tied by a lack of money but an unwillingness on his part to let us see behind the curtain and recognize that what was making and does make the Rays the Rays is the organization in total....NOT BLOOM himself.

 

So from my seat, we are four years into Bloom's reign. He has done nothing that I can see that is even an effort to build a baseball ops effort that is a reasonable facsimile of what the Rays have. He does not have a team that is a reasonable facsimile of the Rays team. The younger players we have that we developed that were anything are gone other than Rafi. What we have left for young talent seems painfully lacking and the ML team seems rather old, well onto the back 9 and past it. So none of that feels particularly promising.

 

IMO if what we headed into post Bloom's hiring is not a 5 year plan but a 10 year plan with the team neither playing exciting baseball nor winning championships, that is a problem. I think the canary in the coal mine for this tweener mentality (neither the DD Sox nor the Rays) is not paying Xander and having to watch what we are forced to toss out there at SS without him.

 

When the major part of the plan is to rebuild the farm, and I'm not saying Bloom has done a good job at that, either just what "evidence" should we see after 3 drafts and IFA signing periods, especially when you consider we added mostly HS players?

 

Devers was fast-tracked and still played more in the minors in his 3rd year (2017) than the bigs.

Mookie did not get more than 340 PAs at any level in the Sox minor and still took 5 years to play more games in MLB than the minors.

Bogey was rushed into MLB action at 3B in 2013, and he too played more games in the minors, year 4 than the bigs.

This is not apologizing for Bloom. It is stating the reality of expectations for getting results from the farm.

 

Did you expect stud prospects to not only get to the bigs in 1-3 years but also mature and be stars, already?

 

It's about expectations by fans. Obviously we had differing ones back in 2020.

 

I have no beef with criticizing the free agents he has chosen to sign. He's had more bad than good, and isn't off to a good start, this year. Bloom has not done a good job at turning the big league club into a winner and many feel not even to the level of hoping we can win. I get that.

 

To me, the jury is still out on what I think was his major priority- building the future through farm-building. There is evidence to support this, as DD traded over 20 top 20 prospects to Bloom's 3. Bloom has traded for more prospects than he has traded away. DD was probably at a 10:1 ratio the other way.

 

I may be in a minority, these days, but I think our extended future looks way brighter than it did after 2019, and that was even before Bloom was hired and Betts was traded away. I know I was not alone, back then, thinking the day of reckoning was pending due to the state of the farm (no major prospects since Devers) and the state of the budget and JH's history of cycling from paying the lux tax into re-setting it and going into rebuild mode (as with Ben.)

 

No doubt, Bloom has not done as well as any of us expected or hoped for, in terms of building the 26 man roster into a strong contender, but some of us knew it might take more than 3 years, and that the farm has taken precedence since even DD's last year as GM.

[moonslav59]

It is worth wondering why Sale, injured at the time, managed to get a better deal than Bogaerts. If you flip those deals (i.e. sign Bogaerts for 5 years $145mill and Sale for 6 years $120 mil), the Sox likely still have both players…

 

Just paying Betts a little more and keeping half-Price on the books at full price and no Sale would have done wonders, but if JH asked whoever the GM might be in 2020 to cut the budget to the level it was cut to, I seriously doubt anyone could have created a highly competitive team in 2020. One could argue 2021 was a stretch and ended up being close to a miracle.

 

It's hard to build a winner with a reduced budget and no farm help.

[Bellhorn04]

It is worth wondering why Sale, injured at the time, managed to get a better deal than Bogaerts. If you flip those deals (i.e. sign Bogaerts for 5 years $145mill and Sale for 6 years $120 mil), the Sox likely still have both players…

 

Sale was not actually injured at the time, having closed out the World Series, and he took deferrals.

 

Bogaerts took a team-friendly deal but one that also offered an opportunity to hit the market again in 3 years, which paid off handsomely.

[Bellhorn04]

It's hard to build a winner with a reduced budget and no farm help.

 

Sure it is. Bloom has had a small margin for error, but we thought he was the kind of smart guy who could deal with that, and he really hasn't lived up to that expectation. Story looks like a swing and a miss in his biggest signing. What if Yoshida turns out to be the same? Yikes.

[moonslav59]

Sure it is. Bloom has had a small margin for error, but we thought he was the kind of smart guy who could deal with that, and he really hasn't lived up to that expectation. Story looks like a swing and a miss in his biggest signing. What if Yoshida turns out to be the same? Yikes.

 

I'm not downplaying the fact that he has swung and missed, too often on the here and now acquisitions. I expected more Schreibers and Whitlocks than Marwins and Richards.

 

I do think the need for steady and competent farm infusion is an essential part of building any winning team, and that takes time. It takes more than 3 years, even if you added all your top prospects 3 years ago, which of course did not and does not ever happen in one year.

 

Drafting HS players was Bloom's choice, but it doesn't mean he was wrong. It does, however, mean the wait will be longer for his infusions to occur. Only time will tell, if Bloom did a good job building the farm. I had hopes we'd be ranked higher than we are, by now, so one could argue, he has not been successful there, either.

 

His trades for prospects have been underwhelming, to say the least. Only Wink and maybe one from EValdez, Hamilton or Abreu might work out, but many of his deals for prospects also involved taking on a vet to try and help the here and now, at the same time. This often led to decreased prospect value, although sometimes like the Ottavino & JBJ trades, which were likely meant to increase prospect value in return.

 

If Yoshida sucks, we are screwed, and our whole prospect talent evaluation department will need a total overhaul. Apparently, our scouts have been gah-gah over Yoshida for many years.

[jung]

Sure it is. Bloom has had a small margin for error, but we thought he was the kind of smart guy who could deal with that, and he really hasn't lived up to that expectation. Story looks like a swing and a miss in his biggest signing. What if Yoshida turns out to be the same? Yikes.

 

Yoshida scares the s*** out of me.

[moonslav59]

Yoshida scares the s*** out of me.

 

He, alone, could be the downfall to Bloom and our scouting department.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

He, alone, could be the downfall to Bloom and our scouting department.

 

We need Yoshida to spray line drives gap to gap and not try to pull high flies off the Pesky Pole or into NY's joke porch. He didn't win batting crowns in Japan swinging from the heels... not when he annually draws more walks than whiffs.

[jad]

I see Vaz is hitting .370. Good thing batting averages don't mean anything.

[Bellhorn04]

They should have kept Vazquez, seriously. It looks like yet another blunder.

[Bellhorn04]

The White Sox traded us McGuire for Jake Freakin' Diekman, for God's sake. That's how anxious they were to unload him.

[notin]

I see Vaz is hitting .370. Good thing batting averages don't mean anything.

 

Ummm …. isn’t McGuire batting .391?

[notin]

The White Sox traded us McGuire for Jake Freakin' Diekman, for God's sake. That's how anxious they were to unload him.

 

Right. They desperately wanted to unload the backup catcher and his burdensome minimum wage contract…

[iortiz]

The Phillies are 4-8.

 

They had a good run in the postseason last year, but they also only got in because of the addition of the third wild card. Any other season, they would have fit the mold of DD’s Detroit teams that had a high payroll, empty farm, and no bullpen. But then most of their payroll last season was inherited and not due to his spending. Ditto the weak farm…

I’m not talking about this season. It’s been 2 weeks of BB. Last year they made f WS out of nowhere. He gave the Phillies a legitime chance to win it all and be contenders in coming years after years of failures. They just signed the best baseball player in planet in my book to keep it going. It’s simply a shame they lost an AllStar and a great player. You can say whatever you want about DD but he is a winner HOF.

[moonslav59]

The White Sox traded us McGuire for Jake Freakin' Diekman, for God's sake. That's how anxious they were to unload him.

 

Did you know this?

 

(Note looking at overall CERA is very misleading. Comparing pitcher by pitcher is the best way to determine who gets the most from a staff.)

 

CWS CERA 2022 (Most PAs with...)

3.38 McGuire (Kopech, Velazquez, Lynn)

4.01 Zavala (Cease, Giolito, Cueto)

4.21 Grandal (Cueto, Gilito, Cease)

4.30 Perez (small sample sizes)

 

TOR 2021 CERA

3.09 Kirk (Ray, Manoah, Matz)

4.10 McGuire (Stripling, Ryu, Manoah)

4.21 Jansen (Ryu, Matz, Ray)

[notin]

I do think McGuire is clearly the issue with this pitching staff. Kluber’s problem is most definitely NOT that his fastball is averaging 88mph. That can’t be it…

[moonslav59]

Since the bottom fell out in 2020, the Sox are 175-162.

 

Of course, 2021 was responsible for the plus.

[notin]

I’m not talking about this season. It’s been 2 weeks of BB. Last year they made f WS out of nowhere. He gave the Phillies a legitime chance to win it all and be contenders in coming years after years of failures. They just signed the best baseball player in planet in my book to keep it going. It’s simply a shame they lost an AllStar and a great player. You can say whatever you want about DD but he is a winner HOF.

 

Did you know that in Dombrowski’s tenure in Philly (2021-22), the Red Sox actually have a better record than the Phillies. And the Phillies are off to a worse start this year. Despite all the complaints on this board about the Sox, I do find it hard to believe the Phillies are excelling at hitting, fielding and pitching on their way to a 4-8 start.

 

Dombrowski inherited a .500 team, and turned it into an 87 win team. They won 5 more games in his second year than before he got there. They had a good postseason run, but they weren’t a great team…

[a700hitter]

Did you know that in Dombrowski’s tenure in Philly (2021-22), the Red Sox actually have a better record than the Phillies. And the Phillies are off to a worse start this year. Despite all the complaints on this board about the Sox, I do find it hard to believe the Phillies are excelling at hitting, fielding and pitching on their way to a 4-8 start.

 

Dombrowski inherited a .500 team, and turned it into an 87 win team. They won 5 more games in his second year than before he got there. They had a good postseason run, but they weren’t a great team…

Didn’t he take the Phillies to the World Series already?

[cp176]

Didn’t he take the Phillies to the World Series already?

 

How could that have been possible? lol

[cp176]

Well, ok. But he did mention Betts, justifying trading him because what he offered?: "It was a fair deal." Fair? Fair is market value. JH did NOT offer that.

That's why he traded him for Verdugo and a bag of balls.

 

And what do long-term or even short term fans care about owner finances and profits? We want some indication that ownership cares about the product on the field, and cares about the fact that fans (some of us) believe players are human beings, not characters in a fantasy league. As long as there is no salary cap, the owner has unlimited funds and is still turning a profit, why should I take heart in frugality?

 

When you go to a movie, do you say: I know this would have been better with Nicolas Cage, but I appreciate the fact that the producers wanted to save money.

 

Pretty mcuch how I feel. Simply looking at the product that we put out on to that field day in day out is pathetic. Players out of position, journeymen pros etc. I'm thinking that right now I don't see this huge farm buildup either. I'm a fan who really doesn't even care to pay attention to a team that I have loved for so long. I do not think that bloom has a clue based on what I have seen. Oh and for the record note that I am not comparing him to anyone else. He is responsible for this mess and he needs to own it completely. He has been here long enough. it's his gig.

[Bellhorn04]

Right. They desperately wanted to unload the backup catcher and his burdensome minimum wage contract…

 

I was joking. But yes, his actual profile is run of the mill backup catcher who gets moved from team to team for little return.

[Bellhorn04]

I do think McGuire is clearly the issue with this pitching staff. Kluber’s problem is most definitely NOT that his fastball is averaging 88mph. That can’t be it…

 

Kluber pitched well enough with the Rays last year that Bloom made him our big starting pitching acquisition this year.

 

Any way you look at it, Bloom is responsible for this mess.

[Bellhorn04]

Did you know this?

 

(Note looking at overall CERA is very misleading. Comparing pitcher by pitcher is the best way to determine who gets the most from a staff.)

 

CWS CERA 2022 (Most PAs with...)

3.38 McGuire (Kopech, Velazquez, Lynn)

4.01 Zavala (Cease, Giolito, Cueto)

4.21 Grandal (Cueto, Gilito, Cease)

4.30 Perez (small sample sizes)

 

TOR 2021 CERA

3.09 Kirk (Ray, Manoah, Matz)

4.10 McGuire (Stripling, Ryu, Manoah)

4.21 Jansen (Ryu, Matz, Ray)

 

moon, I know I'm not using CERA numbers correctly. It's just that when numbers look truly bizarre I can't help being fascinated by them.

 

You have to admit that the disparity between McGuire's and Wong's CERA's is crazy stuff, despite the sample size issues.

 

2022 McGuire 6.33

2022 Wong 3.72

 

2023 McGuire 6.79

2023 Wong 4.20

 

Even the most disciplined stat analyzer has to think "Hmmm, that is a bit odd...".

[notin]

I was joking. But yes, his actual profile is run of the mill backup catcher who gets moved from team to team for little return.

 

Like punters in the NFL…

[Bellhorn04]

The bottom line is we were too freakin' cheap to pay Vazquez $30 million, so we go with a couple of guys who cost about a mill each. That's where your 2023 Red Sox are.

[Bellhorn04]

And let's face it, the real Bloom-huggers were delighted by the fact that he saved some bucks at the catching position.

[Bellhorn04]

The Sox did have Reported Interest in bringing back Vaz, though. In the Bloom era we often have to settle for that.

[Bellhorn04]

Didn't want to match the outlandish sum of $3 million for an experienced SS in Andrus, but hey, just for fun, let's try Bobby Dalbec there.

 

Is it possible that Bloom is just clean out of his mind?