Fire Bloom .

[jacksonianmarch]

Posted this in the game thread, but more appropriate here. I have been a Bloom admirer through his first two seasons. Last year was an absolute nuke of a year and this year is looking worse. It is time for a change at the top

 

Bloom was brought in to rebuild a dead farm system. Look at the big prospects. Rafaela, Mata, Bello, Casas. Brought in by Dombrowski. Bloom brought in Bleis and lucked into Mayer. He’s mostly whiffed thereafter. He watched Bogey, Eovaldi, and JD walk when he should have gotten a trade haul. The Betts deal didn’t work out. He finds a diamond in the rough in Renfroe and deals him off for JBJ who fails. I’m sorry, but the Sox have an ok farm thanks to DD and an awful team. Bloom needs to go

[moonslav59]

Posted this in the game thread, but more appropriate here. I have been a Bloom admirer through his first two seasons. Last year was an absolute nuke of a year and this year is looking worse. It is time for a change at the top

 

Bloom was brought in to rebuild a dead farm system. Look at the big prospects. Rafaela, Mata, Bello, Casas. Brought in by Dombrowski. Bloom brought in Bleis and lucked into Mayer. He’s mostly whiffed thereafter. He watched Bogey, Eovaldi, and JD walk when he should have gotten a trade haul. The Betts deal didn’t work out. He finds a diamond in the rough in Renfroe and deals him off for JBJ who fails. I’m sorry, but the Sox have an ok farm thanks to DD and an awful team. Bloom needs to go

 

He did add Whitlock, who was technically a prospect when added, but your point stands. Winckowski is about the only other Bloom added prospect that has done anything, so far. (It does take time for prospects to mature and then make an impact.)

 

After 3 drafts and IFA signing periods, one would expect more of our top prospects to be Bloom's, although it's not uncommon for it to take 2-3 years for most prospects to shine.

 

soxprospects: (Casas should now be graduated)

1. Mayer

3. Bleis

6. Yorke

7. Romero

11. Anthony

12. Drohan

15. Valdez (via trade)

16. E R-C

18. Jordan

19. Hickey

20. Kavadas

21. Alcantara

23. Coffey

24. Abreu (via trade)

25. Guerrero

26. Hamilton (via trade)

26. Kelly (miLFA)

Koss, McDonough, Meidroth, Brannon...

 

[dgalehouse]

To this day, I don't know why Dombrowski was fired. Chaim Bloom took over a very talented team that needed pitching , especially in the bullpen. He has systematically dismantled that team and rebuilt it his way. The results have not been good. And that is putting it mildly.

[moonslav59]

To this day, I don't know why Dombrowski was fired. Chaim Bloom took over a very talented team that needed pitching , especially in the bullpen. He has systematically dismantled that team and rebuilt it his way. The results have not been good. And that is putting it mildly.

 

If you think keeping DD would have caused JH to open his wallet for 2020 and 2021, I'm not sure why you think that.

 

Also, that 2020 lost Sale and ERod for the whole season. DD would have had to grossly overspend to make up for that, while still paying Betts and full Price.

 

Do you really think it was Bloom's choice to massively slash the 2019 budget?

[jad]

To be fair, he mentioned letting JBJ and Vaz go, not letting Betts and Bogey go. There's a big difference between keeping those tiers of players.

 

I've been out on Henry ever since they let Mookie go. Not extending Bogey after 2021 was a HUGE mistake.

 

If the FO has a plan, it's not obvious what it is.

 

Well, ok. But he did mention Betts, justifying trading him because what he offered?: "It was a fair deal." Fair? Fair is market value. JH did NOT offer that.

That's why he traded him for Verdugo and a bag of balls.

 

And what do long-term or even short term fans care about owner finances and profits? We want some indication that ownership cares about the product on the field, and cares about the fact that fans (some of us) believe players are human beings, not characters in a fantasy league. As long as there is no salary cap, the owner has unlimited funds and is still turning a profit, why should I take heart in frugality?

 

When you go to a movie, do you say: I know this would have been better with Nicolas Cage, but I appreciate the fact that the producers wanted to save money.

[moonslav59]

Well, ok. But he did mention Betts, justifying trading him because what he offered?: "It was a fair deal." Fair? Fair is market value. JH did NOT offer that.

That's why he traded him for Verdugo and a bag of balls.

 

And what do long-term or even short term fans care about owner finances and profits? We want some indication that ownership cares about the product on the field, and cares about the fact that fans (some of us) believe players are human beings, not characters in a fantasy league. As long as there is no salary cap, the owner has unlimited funds and is still turning a profit, why should I take heart in frugality?

 

When you go to a movie, do you say: I know this would have been better with Nicolas Cage, but I appreciate the fact that the producers wanted to save money.

 

You can view it as apologizing for Bloom, but he was told to trade Betts and include half-Price. Nobody in their right mind looks and says verdugo is as good as Betts, but look at the context. Price was part of the deal, and there were not many offers being made. Should Bloom have told JH, sorry, I refuse to follow your orders, because I can't stomach the return I can get for Betts & Price?

 

Call us "apologists" all you want, but I really don't see it that way. Bloom was forced to do something none of us liked or wanted. Has Betts accepted the $300M offer, would that have made Bloom a genius? If the budget mandates stayed the same, he'd have had to trade a ton of other players to reach JH's demands.

 

It was not his choice. That's not apologizing, it's just stating facts.

 

Yes, JBJ, Vaz, beni and ERod are another tier, but the point made seemed to be we should keep our fan favorites for as long as possible, even if they begin to decline or even suck (like JBJ.) It was a critique of the team philosophy of taking away pretty much all of our longterm fan faves, except Devers with the hint that he was next, because this is the new way brought on by Bloom, or at least he being the most responsible for it.

 

No doubt, Bloom has blundered. I listed many of them and what I felt were the major 3. There is no apologizing for that, from me.

 

It's easy to sit back and proclaim, "Bloom should have gotten much better than verdugo for Betts and half-Price." Most leave out the mention of Price, because it helps their narrative. It was a big part of the reduced return value, IMO.

 

Choosing Downs as part of the package was really bad. There is no sugar-coating that.

 

As for frugality- I choose to think Bloom is not the decision maker on that. He did to convince JH to spend less, so no, I don't blame him for budget cutting. I do blame him for making the wrong signings on the money he did have to spend.

[jad]

You can view it as apologizing for Bloom, but he was told to trade Betts and include half-Price. Nobody in their right mind looks and says verdugo is as good as Betts, but look at the context. Price was part of the deal, and there were not many offers being made. Should Bloom have told JH, sorry, I refuse to follow your orders, because I can't stomach the return I can get for Betts & Price?

 

Call us "apologists" all you want, but I really don't see it that way. Bloom was forced to do something none of us liked or wanted. Has Betts accepted the $300M offer, would that have made Bloom a genius? If the budget mandates stayed the same, he'd have had to trade a ton of other players to reach JH's demands.

 

It was not his choice. That's not apologizing, it's just stating facts.

 

Yes, JBJ, Vaz, beni and ERod are another tier, but the point made seemed to be we should keep our fan favorites for as long as possible, even if they begin to decline or even suck (like JBJ.) It was a critique of the team philosophy of taking away pretty much all of our longterm fan faves, except Devers with the hint that he was next, because this is the new way brought on by Bloom, or at least he being the most responsible for it.

 

No doubt, Bloom has blundered. I listed many of them and what I felt were the major 3. There is no apologizing for that, from me.

 

It's easy to sit back and proclaim, "Bloom should have gotten much better than verdugo for Betts and half-Price." Most leave out the mention of Price, because it helps their narrative. It was a big part of the reduced return value, IMO.

 

Choosing Downs as part of the package was really bad. There is no sugar-coating that.

 

As for frugality- I choose to think Bloom is not the decision maker on that. He did to convince JH to spend less, so no, I don't blame him for budget cutting. I do blame him for making the wrong signings on the money he did have to spend.

 

Well, you are distinguishing Bloom from Henry. But I don't know any evidence that allows fans to do that. Maybe it exists; I just haven't seen it. Start with the major assertion: Henry told BLoom to trade Betts and get rid of Price. Thus it's not Bloom's fault. I don't dispute that, but I don't know whose decision that was, but if JH actually made that statement, please provide the soruce.

[iortiz]

To be fair, he mentioned letting JBJ and Vaz go, not letting Betts and Bogey go. There's a big difference between keeping those tiers of players.

 

I've been out on Henry ever since they let Mookie go. Not extending Bogey after 2021 was a HUGE mistake.

 

If the FO has a plan, it's not obvious what it is.

 

This 100%

[iortiz]

Well, you are distinguishing Bloom from Henry. But I don't know any evidence that allows fans to do that. Maybe it exists; I just haven't seen it. Start with the major assertion: Henry told BLoom to trade Betts and get rid of Price. Thus it's not Bloom's fault. I don't dispute that, but I don't know whose decision that was, but if JH actually made that statement, please provide the soruce.

 

Playing devil's advocate, all I have seen and read is that Bloom has had fully freedom to do whatever he wanted to do to get the job done.

 

I don't see at this point what the plan is, when you see the signings of Devers and Yoshida.

Edited April 13, 2023 by iortiz

[notin]

To this day, I don't know why Dombrowski was fired. Chaim Bloom took over a very talented team that needed pitching , especially in the bullpen. He has systematically dismantled that team and rebuilt it his way. The results have not been good. And that is putting it mildly.

 

 

You don’t think building a quarter billion dollar team that finished 12 games behind the second wild card had anything to do with it?

[Bellhorn04]

If you think keeping DD would have caused JH to open his wallet for 2020 and 2021, I'm not sure why you think that.

 

Also, that 2020 lost Sale and ERod for the whole season. DD would have had to grossly overspend to make up for that, while still paying Betts and full Price.

 

Do you really think it was Bloom's choice to massively slash the 2019 budget?

 

Without a doubt hiring Bloom was all part and parcel of JH's desire to rein in the payroll.

 

You have to wonder if JH is liking the results right now.

[iortiz]

I have understood that Bloom is not a Mickey Mouse GM or whatever the title is at this point.

[iortiz]

You don’t think building a quarter billion dollar team that finished 12 games behind the second wild card had anything to do with it?

 

well Bloom hasn't won anything yet and only God knows how many more years he'll be around.

[Bellhorn04]

You don’t think building a quarter billion dollar team that finished 12 games behind the second wild card had anything to do with it?

 

It shouldn't have, when the team won the division the 3 prior years and won a title. 1 bad year out of 4 gets you the axe?

[iortiz]

SS and C are the most important positions in a baseball team and we have but utility players playing there.

 

Really, how do we expect to win going like this?

[iortiz]

It shouldn't have, when the team won the division the 3 prior years and won a title. 1 bad year out of 4 gets you the axe?

 

Phillies haven't done bad.

[Bellhorn04]

SS and C are the most important positions in a baseball team and we have but utility players playing there.

 

Really, how do we expect to win going like this?

 

It's kind of shocking that after such a crap year last year, the mission seemed to be to make the team even worse. Henry didn't let Bloom spend a whole lot, and the returns on what he did spend on are slim so far.

[jad]

Playing devil's advocate, all I have seen and read is that Bloom has had fully freedom to do whatever he wanted to do to get the job done.

 

I don't see at this point what the plan is, when you see the signings of Devers and Yoshida.

 

I don't think we disagree. I just don't see the clear evidence distinguishing Henry/Bloom. Thus I treat them together. It's perfectly reasonable to assume: OK. Henry wanted to try the Tampa way: small budget, good success. So he hired Bloom, and told him to cut the budget and that he would have free rein to do anything he wanted. Reasonable, yes. But evidence for it? I have none.

 

Given that this is all speculation, I also assume that as an arrogant CEO/owner, Henry decided that all he had to do was hire the top guy (because, you know, worker bees and other such rabble don't really count). And that we are all now discovering that the Tampa Way wasn't the product of some 'boy genius' at all, but was the result of serious grunt work by the no-account analytics guys and scouts. Does anyone here know how many of those guys Bloom brought with him? I assume almost none. Which would go a long way to explaining why nothing has worked since the Bloom hire.

[Bellhorn04]

Given that this is all speculation, I also assume that as an arrogant CEO/owner, Henry decided that all he had to do was hire the top guy (because, you know, worker bees and other such rabble don't really count). And that we are all now discovering that the Tampa Way wasn't the product of some 'boy genius' at all, but was the result of serious grunt work by the no-account analytics guys and scouts. Does anyone here know how many of those guys Bloom brought with him? I assume almost none. Which would go a long way to explaining why nothing has worked since the Bloom hire.

 

That does seem to be the case.

[jung]

I don't see any evidence that Bloom has attempted to build an organization under him that is the equivalent of what the Rays have. Why not? Is he afraid to see it get around that he is not the genius behind how the Rays are constructed year after year....that it is actually a total organizational effort? Bloom was disallowed from talking to Rays staff and offer any of them jobs till 2021. But its 2023 now. Still nothing that I have seen.

 

It looks to me like the Sox Brass bought in on Bloom and not on the Rays systemic methodology and I simply do not think Bloom is some sort of baseball genius. DD is a pure baseball guy. If you buy in on DD he will rape your farm system, spend lots of your money and give you a genuine shot at the title. Does not make DD a genius either but it does make him a guy with a proven track record for championships. I don't think Bloom can give you a reasonable shot at a title and I don't think he can do what Tampa does without the entire top to bottom organization that Tampa has or at least a very reasonable facsimile of it.

 

Worth noting that Tampa has no titles. Didn't before....don't have any now. But they play an exciting brand of baseball that keeps you watching. Had they a decent baseball market in Tampa I expect they would pack the place out especially with the rules changes. Maybe they have no titles because it takes big important players doing their thing in big moments in the post season to actually win one of these things and maybe that is where the Rays deficiencies come home to roost. But the more accepted thinking is that you get to the post season and the hottest team wins the thing. Not sure I have ever really agreed with that. But that is the accepted thinking. I do think the Rays can adapt to the rules changes faster than other teams. That might help put them over the top.

 

And actually I don't think its money that has prevented Bloom from achieving some measure of success here as much as its an inability of the Sox brass to actually make a definitive decision beyond bringing in one guy....Bloom. Bloom maybe does not have his hands tied by a lack of money but an unwillingness on his part to let us see behind the curtain and recognize that what was making and does make the Rays the Rays is the organization in total....NOT BLOOM himself.

 

So from my seat, we are four years into Bloom's reign. He has done nothing that I can see that is even an effort to build a baseball ops effort that is a reasonable facsimile of what the Rays have. He does not have a team that is a reasonable facsimile of the Rays team. The younger players we have that we developed that were anything are gone other than Rafi. What we have left for young talent seems painfully lacking and the ML team seems rather old, well onto the back 9 and past it. So none of that feels particularly promising.

 

IMO if what we headed into post Bloom's hiring is not a 5 year plan but a 10 year plan with the team neither playing exciting baseball nor winning championships, that is a problem. I think the canary in the coal mine for this tweener mentality (neither the DD Sox nor the Rays) is not paying Xander and having to watch what we are forced to toss out there at SS without him.

Edited April 13, 2023 by jung

[moonslav59]

Well, you are distinguishing Bloom from Henry. But I don't know any evidence that allows fans to do that. Maybe it exists; I just haven't seen it. Start with the major assertion: Henry told BLoom to trade Betts and get rid of Price. Thus it's not Bloom's fault. I don't dispute that, but I don't know whose decision that was, but if JH actually made that statement, please provide the soruce.

 

You think Bloom came in and talked JH into slashing the budget. I don't see any evidence that allows fans to believe that. Please provide a source.

 

I ask, which do you think is more likely?

 

As fans, we can believe what we want to believe or choose to not take either position.

[notin]

It shouldn't have, when the team won the division the 3 prior years and won a title. 1 bad year out of 4 gets you the axe?

 

Obviously it was.

 

Maybe he didn’t like the direction Dombrowski was taking the team, signing Price and extending Sale over extending Bogaerts and Betts, for example…

[Bellhorn04]

I don't see any evidence that Bloom has attempted to build an organization under him that is the equivalent of what the Rays have. Why not? Is he afraid to see it get around that he is not the genius behind how the Rays are constructed year after year....that it is actually a total organizational effort? Bloom was disallowed from talking to Rays staff and offer any of them jobs till 2021. But its 2023 now. Still nothing that I have seen.

 

It looks to me like the Sox Brass bought in on Bloom and not on the Rays systemic methodology and I simply do not think Bloom is some sort of baseball genius. DD is a pure baseball guy. If you buy in on DD he will rape your farm system, spend lots of your money and give you a genuine shot at the title. Does not make DD a genius either but it does make him a guy with a proven track record for championships. I don't think Bloom can give you a reasonable shot at a title and I don't think he can do what Tampa does without the entire top to bottom organization that Tampa has or at least a very reasonable facsimile of it.

 

Worth noting that Tampa has no titles. Didn't before....don't have any now. But they play an exciting brand of baseball that keeps you watching. Had they a decent baseball market in Tampa I expect they would pack the place out especially with the rules changes. Maybe they have no titles because it takes big important players doing their thing in big moments in the post season to actually win one of these things and maybe that is where the Rays deficiencies come home to roost. But the more accepted thinking is that you get to the post season and the hottest team wins the thing. Not sure I have ever really agreed with that. But that is the accepted thinking. I do think the Rays can adapt to the rules changes faster than other teams. That might help put them over the top.

 

And actually I don't think its money that has prevented Bloom from achieving some measure of success here as much as its an inability of the Sox brass to actually make a definitive decision beyond bringing in one guy....Bloom. Bloom maybe does not have his hands tied by a lack of money but an unwillingness on his part to let us see behind the curtain and recognize that what was making and does make the Rays the Rays is the organization in total....NOT BLOOM himself.

 

So from my seat, we are four years into Bloom's reign. He has done nothing that I can see that is even an effort to build a baseball ops effort that is a reasonable facsimile of what the Rays have. He does not have a team that is a reasonable facsimile of the Rays team. The younger players we have that we developed that were anything are gone other than Rafi. What we have left for young talent seems painfully lacking and the ML team seems rather old, well onto the back 9 and past it. So none of that feels particularly promising.

 

IMO if what we headed into post Bloom's hiring is not a 5 year plan but a 10 year plan with the team neither playing exciting baseball nor winning championships, that is a problem. I think the canary in the coal mine for this tweener mentality (neither the DD Sox nor the Rays) is not paying Xander and having to watch what we are forced to toss out there at SS without him.

 

Yeah, pretty much.

 

For me the most extraordinary thing about Bloom's 4 years is that he has yet to sign a starting pitcher to a real contract. And it's not like we're stacked with starting pitching prospects. To me this is bordering on madness.

[jad]

You think Bloom came in and talked JH into slashing the budget. I don't see any evidence that allows fans to believe that. Please provide a source.

 

I ask, which do you think is more likely?

 

As fans, we can believe what we want to believe or choose to not take either position.

 

?? Not sure of your first sentence. Did something I said imply that? I thought I said that (I assumed) Henry gave Bloom the charge of cutting payroll. I also said I didn't know anything about bloom's staff, but Jung's statement above seems to confirm what I suspected.

[notin]

Phillies haven't done bad.

 

The Phillies are 4-8.

 

They had a good run in the postseason last year, but they also only got in because of the addition of the third wild card. Any other season, they would have fit the mold of DD’s Detroit teams that had a high payroll, empty farm, and no bullpen. But then most of their payroll last season was inherited and not due to his spending. Ditto the weak farm…

[notin]

Yeah, pretty much.

 

For me the most extraordinary thing about Bloom's 4 years is that he has yet to sign a starting pitcher to a real contract. And it's not like we're stacked with starting pitching prospects. To me this is bordering on madness.

 

I do not get his bizarre addictions to some of his pitchers. Ort, obviously. Never got his infatuation with Martin Perez. And not sure why he refuses to draft pitching except maybe (personal theory here) he prefers the safer position player picks as a way of bolstering the number of blue chips in the farm, thus elevating their ranking…

[Bellhorn04]

Obviously it was.

 

Maybe he didn’t like the direction Dombrowski was taking the team, signing Price and extending Sale over extending Bogaerts and Betts, for example…

 

Nobody knows for sure. There was talk about a lack of communication or whatever.

 

And we don't know what really went down with Betts.

 

It's omerta, man.

 

And let's not forget these are the same guys who disposed of Epstein, Francona and Cherington in the 8 years before they did it to DD.

[jad]

I don't see any evidence that Bloom has attempted to build an organization under him that is the equivalent of what the Rays have. Why not? Is he afraid to see it get around that he is not the genius behind how the Rays are constructed year after year....that it is actually a total organizational effort? Bloom was disallowed from talking to Rays staff and offer any of them jobs till 2021. But its 2023 now. Still nothing that I have seen.

 

It looks to me like the Sox Brass bought in on Bloom and not on the Rays systemic methodology and I simply do not think Bloom is some sort of baseball genius. DD is a pure baseball guy. If you buy in on DD he will rape your farm system, spend lots of your money and give you a genuine shot at the title. Does not make DD a genius either but it does make him a guy with a proven track record for championships. I don't think Bloom can give you a reasonable shot at a title and I don't think he can do what Tampa does without the entire top to bottom organization that Tampa has or at least a very reasonable facsimile of it.

 

Worth noting that Tampa has no titles. Didn't before....don't have any now. But they play an exciting brand of baseball that keeps you watching. Had they a decent baseball market in Tampa I expect they would pack the place out especially with the rules changes. Maybe they have no titles because it takes big important players doing their thing in big moments in the post season to actually win one of these things and maybe that is where the Rays deficiencies come home to roost. But the more accepted thinking is that you get to the post season and the hottest team wins the thing. Not sure I have ever really agreed with that. But that is the accepted thinking. I do think the Rays can adapt to the rules changes faster than other teams. That might help put them over the top.

 

And actually I don't think its money that has prevented Bloom from achieving some measure of success here as much as its an inability of the Sox brass to actually make a definitive decision beyond bringing in one guy....Bloom. Bloom maybe does not have his hands tied by a lack of money but an unwillingness on his part to let us see behind the curtain and recognize that what was making and does make the Rays the Rays is the organization in total....NOT BLOOM himself.

 

So from my seat, we are four years into Bloom's reign. He has done nothing that I can see that is even an effort to build a baseball ops effort that is a reasonable facsimile of what the Rays have. He does not have a team that is a reasonable facsimile of the Rays team. The younger players we have that we developed that were anything are gone other than Rafi. What we have left for young talent seems painfully lacking and the ML team seems rather old, well onto the back 9 and past it. So none of that feels particularly promising.

 

IMO if what we headed into post Bloom's hiring is not a 5 year plan but a 10 year plan with the team neither playing exciting baseball nor winning championships, that is a problem. I think the canary in the coal mine for this tweener mentality (neither the DD Sox nor the Rays) is not paying Xander and having to watch what we are forced to toss out there at SS without him.

 

Thanks. If Henry figured Bloom alone was enough, then both Henry and Bloom snookered each other.

[notin]

Nobody knows for sure. There was talk about a lack of communication or whatever.

 

And we don't know what really went down with Betts.

 

It's omerta, man.

 

We know by 2018, he was making outrageous demands. But it was obvious he was a keeper before then. I’m not sure if it was possible to re-sign him earlier, but I did even say at the time (back in the thread about signing Price) that I’d much rather have seen him extend Betts. If it was obvious to me, it should have been painfully obvious to DD…

[Bellhorn04]

We know by 2018, he was making outrageous demands. But it was obvious he was a keeper before then. I’m not sure if it was possible to re-sign him earlier, but I did even say at the time (back in the thread about signing Price) that I’d much rather have seen him extend Betts. If it was obvious to me, it should have been painfully obvious to DD…

 

Yeah, but you seem to be assuming DD was authorized to offer Betts whatever it took. As we all know, DD has never been shy about spending what he's authorized.