Fire Bloom .

[mvp 78]

Mark Reynolds was a pretty successful swisher, wasn't he?

 

I always wanted the Sox to bring Dunn to Fenway. He had more career HR, RBI, K and BB than either Davis or Reynolds. I believe Dunn is third all time behind Reggie and Thome in K's, but has a higher k%. Dunn has the highest k% of anyone in the top 10 all time in k's, but also second highest bb %.

 

462 HR

1168 RBI

2379 K

1317 BB

[moonslav59]

I know. You have a fondness for dabbling in hypotheticals that I don't really share. I find making sense of reality hard enough, without bringing all the "what-ifs" into it LOL

 

I guess my point is about trying to make a point about batters who K a lot. Many of the batters who have K'd 200+ times in a season still had productive seasons, to some extent, and some had very productive seasons.

 

To me, if a guy gets on base enough times and or drives in enough runs, I don't care how many times he Ks. I think the whole productive out thing is over-rated. Those who K very little might have 5-15 "productive outs" per season but might also have 5-15 GIDP the high K batters have less of. It might be close to a wash.

 

Now, a sucky batter who is on pace for over 200 Ks is usually benched before he reaches 200 Ks.

[moonslav59]

Yes, especially since they most likely were going to lose Vaz at the end of the year and they were GRACIOUS to allow Vaz a PLAYOFF run where he could catch a no hitter in the World Series. They could have held onto him and forced him to stick it out on a horrible last place team. Nope, they released him from this misery. Though so people on here would claim that the Sox did him dirty...

 

That's how I see it. It was basically 2 months of Vaz, 1.3 years of Diekman plus prospect Groome for everything we got.

[Bellhorn04]

I guess my point is about trying to make a point about batters who K a lot. Many of the batters who have K'd 200+ times in a season still had productive seasons, to some extent, and some had very productive seasons.

 

To me, if a guy gets on base enough times and or drives in enough runs, I don't care how many times he Ks. I think the whole productive out thing is over-rated. Those who K very little might have 5-15 "productive outs" per season but might also have 5-15 GIDP the high K batters have less of. It might be close to a wash.

 

It's certainly something that bears analysis. The guy who hits a lot of hard grounders instead of K's will hit into more DP's, but will also presumably get more hits, productive outs and reached by error.

 

Another interesting point is that guys who hit into a lot of DP's are also usually productive hitters. Jim Rice has the two highest season totals in history, 36 in 1984 and 35 in 1985.

[mvp 78]

Now, a sucky batter who is on pace for over 200 Ks is usually benched before he reaches 200 Ks.

 

Well, if you lowered it to 190, you'd get Chris Davis in 2018 having a -2.6 fWAR.

[moonslav59]

Well, if you lowered it to 190, you'd get Chris Davis in 2018 having a -2.6 fWAR.

 

It's amazing how a 49 OPS+ guy can get 522 PAs, like he did, that year.

[moonslav59]

It's certainly something that bears analysis. The guy who hits a lot of hard grounders instead of K's will hit into more DP's, but will also presumably get more hits, productive outs and reached by error.

 

Another interesting point is that guys who hit into a lot of DP's are also usually productive hitters. Jim Rice has the two highest season totals in history, 36 in 1984 and 35 in 1985.

 

Yes, most batters who hit the ball hard more often will get more hits and probably more "productive outs," as well as maybe more GIDPs.

 

All things being equal, like OBP and BA, I'm just saying a guy who might K 220 times, have just 5 productive outs and 5 GIDP is as good or better than someone with 80 Ks, 15 productive outs and 20 GIDPs. Many hit more HRs, so their SLG could be higher and make them better, too.

 

Maybe they have a lower BA but higher SLG.

 

I'm not really a fan of high K batters, but I don't write them off, just because they K a lot.

 

The 2013 Napoli was pretty helpful.

[mvp 78]

It's amazing how a 49 OPS+ guy can get 522 PAs, like he did, that year.

 

49 is higher than the amount of wins the O's had that year.

[moonslav59]

49 is higher than the amount of wins the O's had that year.

 

49 is 11 points below JBJ's OPS+ with the Sox, this season.

 

JBJ had plus D and only lasted 290 PAs with us.

[Bellhorn04]

It's amazing how a 49 OPS+ guy can get 522 PAs, like he did, that year.

 

Because they were paying him a fortune, and they stunk anyway.

[jad]

I'm just happy we don't have to put up with watching these stiffs like Mookie, Kyle Schwarber, and Vasquez any more. Hopefully, Bogey, JD, and Devers will be gone as well, and we can finally get some consistency with the RS.

[moonslav59]

I'm just happy we don't have to put up with watching these stiffs like Mookie, Kyle Schwarber, and Vasquez any more. Hopefully, Bogey, JD, and Devers will be gone as well, and we can finally get some consistency with the RS.

 

Very well said.

 

[Bellhorn04]

I'm just happy we don't have to put up with watching these stiffs like Mookie, Kyle Schwarber, and Vasquez any more. Hopefully, Bogey, JD, and Devers will be gone as well, and we can finally get some consistency with the RS.

 

Still running neck and neck with 5 Gloves for 2022's Oozing Sarcasm of the Year Award.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I'm just happy we don't have to put up with watching these stiffs like Mookie, Kyle Schwarber, and Vasquez any more. Hopefully, Bogey, JD, and Devers will be gone as well, and we can finally get some consistency with the RS.

 

Once all those guys are history, I got your consistency right here... in the cellar.

 

I was going to say finished basement, but Bloom's was unfinished this season. Remember he told us he was going to install a woodstove, and drilled the hole for the stovepipe, but it never came. Sam Kennedy had to ducktape it, but is still telling us they have every intention of staying warm this winter.

 

(I still got two months of '22 to go, right Bellhorn?)

[Bellhorn04]

Once all those guys are history, I got your consistency right here... in the cellar.

 

I was going to say finished basement, but Bloom's was unfinished this season. Remember he told us he was going to install a woodstove, and drilled the hole for the stovepipe, but it never came. Sam Kennedy had to ducktape it, but is still telling us they have every intention of staying warm this winter.

 

(I still got two months of '22 to go, right Bellhorn?)

 

Yes...well, close to two months.

[S5Dewey]

I'm just happy we don't have to put up with watching these stiffs like Mookie, Kyle Schwarber, and Vasquez any more. Hopefully, Bogey, JD, and Devers will be gone as well, and we can finally get some consistency with the RS.

 

I think it's a crime that we didn't somehow get rid of our entire 26 man roster rather than put them through the humiliation of playing for a last place team. There are guys playing for the WooSox and the Pawsox who would have liked living like Major Leaguers even though they were finishing last. And that doesn't even begin to think about the money saved!

[moonslav59]

I think it's a crime that we didn't somehow get rid of our entire 26 man roster rather than put them through the humiliation of playing for a last place team. There are guys playing for the WooSox and the Pawsox who would have liked living like Major Leaguers even though they were finishing last. And that doesn't even begin to think about the money saved!

 

Think of how great our farm would have been had we traded those 26!

[mvp 78]

I think it's a crime that we didn't somehow get rid of our entire 26 man roster rather than put them through the humiliation of playing for a last place team. There are guys playing for the WooSox and the Pawsox who would have liked living like Major Leaguers even though they were finishing last. And that doesn't even begin to think about the money saved!

 

They should have at least traded the guys on expiring contracts like JD, Eovaldi, Wacha, Hill, etc. There was no reason to keep them around. They were 50-52 on July 30th. It was a sinking ship. After the 3-13 stretch from 7-3 to 7-24 was when everyone should have just been unloaded.

[mvp 78]

Think of how great our farm would have been had we traded those 26!

 

Keith Law would have still been down on it.

[Bellhorn04]

They should have at least traded the guys on expiring contracts like JD, Eovaldi, Wacha, Hill, etc. There was no reason to keep them around. They were 50-52 on July 30th. It was a sinking ship. After the 3-13 stretch from 7-3 to 7-24 was when everyone should have just been unloaded.

 

Horsefeathers.

[Bellhorn04]

The 2021 World Series champs were 52-54 on July 31, 2021.

 

Bloom did the right thing this year. Sucks how it turned out, but that's baseball.

[moonslav59]

They should have at least traded the guys on expiring contracts like JD, Eovaldi, Wacha, Hill, etc. There was no reason to keep them around. They were 50-52 on July 30th. It was a sinking ship. After the 3-13 stretch from 7-3 to 7-24 was when everyone should have just been unloaded.

 

I totally agree and not just in hindsight.

 

The '22 team had a way different feel to it than '21's.

[mvp 78]

Horsefeathers.

 

If that's all they could have gotten for JD and Eovaldi, then fine... At least they would've gotten under the cap.

[Bellhorn04]

I totally agree and not just in hindsight.

 

The '22 team had a way different feel to it than '21's.

 

GM's can't really go on "feel". They have to pay more attention to things like being 3 games out of the playoffs with 2 months to go and having a bunch of guys expected back from the IL etc.

[Bellhorn04]

If that's all they could have gotten for JD and Eovaldi, then fine... At least they would've gotten under the cap.

 

I see it differently. I think the front office was upholding its pledge to try to be competitive.

 

Don't get me wrong, you and moonslav are obviously right that a fire sale would have been much better on a go forward basis.

[mvp 78]

The 2021 World Series champs were 52-54 on July 31, 2021.

 

Bloom did the right thing this year. Sucks how it turned out, but that's baseball.

 

On July 30th, the Red Sox starting lineup had 5 players with an OPS under 700. Was that going to win them a WS?

 

Excluding the pitcher, the '21 Braves had 1 player with an OPS under 700 on 7/30/21 starting.

 

Do we really want to go down the lineup and compare position by position and say why the two teams are very dissimilar?

[mvp 78]

I totally agree and not just in hindsight.

 

The '22 team had a way different feel to it than '21's.

 

The 21 team struggled at times, but showed a lot of fight. The 22 team only played well in June. Aside from that, they were pretty unwatchable.

[mvp 78]

I see it differently. I think the front office was upholding its pledge to try to be competitive.

 

Don't get me wrong, you and moonslav are obviously right that a fire sale would have been much better on a go forward basis.

 

I have said that I understand why they went that route, I just disagree with it. I disagreed with it from before the season even began so maybe I was biased from the jump?

[Old Red]

GM's can't really go on "feel". They have to pay more attention to things like being 3 games out of the playoffs with 2 months to go and having a bunch of guys expected back from the IL etc.

 

Agree 100%. Seems like this subject has beaten to death many times. I was never for the fire sale before the season ever started, or at the trade deadline when Bloom made his famous looking for that 3rd option at the fork in the road. Like I’ve said many times you don’t give up on a season when you are still mathematically still in it, and I think a majority of fans feel that way. If it doesn’t work it doesn’t work, and then you go from there to try, and fix things. I’m not going to worry if poor JH has to pay a little tax. He’ll just pass it on to the fans anyway.

[mvp 78]

GM's can't really go on "feel". They have to pay more attention to things like being 3 games out of the playoffs with 2 months to go and having a bunch of guys expected back from the IL etc.

 

"Expected" back. Can't go on "expectations." Gotta go on what you actually know. Being below .500. Knowing your team has a bunch of guys injured and unproductive.