Fire Bloom .

[notin]

I generally agree with your assessment.

 

Although I do not necessarily say I believe, it but word going around Beantown is that Vazquez was traded because he was Bloom's most vociferous critic in the clubhouse. Has anyone else heard that one?

 

 

If that’s the buzz on the Internet, how could it possibly be false?

 

I imagine every team has players who criticize the GM. Praising is probably more difficult to come by. But I would bet the overwhelming majority are neutral and just play. Probably because we as fans see team weaknesses, but players are probably a lot more hesitant to throw teammates (or themselves) under the same bus. And, let’s face it, complaining is more in our human nature than praising. That’s why yelp.com exists.

 

Of course, this is just a theory.

[Kimmi]

Wasn't trying to speak negatively of you. You are just the most pro-Bloom poster on here and I have zero problem with it. Most other posters have done their fair share of criticizing.

 

I will gladly and proudly carry the title of most pro-Bloom poster on here.

[notin]

Max.B. starts a reply to Old Red with , " Hey Dummy " and you say nothing. All the condescending and smart ass stuff from a few on here and you say nothing. But I'm taking shots at folks who have given up on the season already ? Give me a.break Bellhorn.

 

To be fair, while Max is certainly guilty of what you say, he isn’t calling out posters in one post and then telling others not to in another…

[Elktonnick]

Can we get back to the real world please?

As if MLB is the "real world". The reason we enjoy it is because it isn't!

[Kimmi]

I generally agree with your assessment.

 

Although I do not necessarily say I believe, it but word going around Beantown is that Vazquez was traded because he was Bloom's most vociferous critic in the clubhouse. Has anyone else heard that one?

 

I have not heard that. While it's possible, I have a hard time buying it.

[Bellhorn04]

Max.B. starts a reply to Old Red with , " Hey Dummy " and you say nothing. All the condescending and smart ass stuff from a few on here and you say nothing. But I'm taking shots at folks who have given up on the season already ? Give me a.break Bellhorn.

 

Denny, you've been tearing a strip off Bloom supporters for quite a while now, and even made up a joke name for them as a group. So your "let's stick to baseball" statement seems a little hollow.

 

As for Old Red, I think he's only here for pissing matches, so I finally put him on Ignore.

[Kimmi]

Personally I'm happy they haven't given up on 2022.

 

I get what others are saying about not adding a reliever, though I imagine the prices were high.

 

100%. I was very happy when the deadline passed and JD and Eovaldi were still on the team.

 

There's a lot of work for the team to do, but they have a shot.

[Kimmi]

Coming from Bogey was a good thing, and I’m sure he was speaking for the whole clubhouse. I’m also sure that Bogey, and his teammates will give everything they got to win DESPITE BLOOM as they should.

 

It was not a good thing, IMO. That's not the type of thing that you air publicly. You suck it up and you play your hardest every day.

[Old Red]

It was not a good thing, IMO. That's not the type of thing that you air publicly. You suck it up and you play your hardest every day.

 

We’ll have to agree to disagree on that, because I’m with Bogey 100%, and it is what’s felt in that clubhouse that matters most, and not what you, or I think. It was pretty well know anyway, so it wasn’t like they were letting any cat out of the bag.

[Old Red]

Denny, you've been tearing a strip off Bloom supporters for quite a while now, and even made up a joke name for them as a group. So your "let's stick to baseball" statement seems a little hollow.

 

As for Old Red, I think he's only here for pissing matches, so I finally put him on Ignore.

 

Everything’s a pissing match on here if you have a different opinion. Circle the wagons, and deny, deny, accuse.

[Elktonnick]

Everything’s a pissing match on here if you have a different opinion. Circle the wagons, and deny, deny, accuse.

Amen

[notin]

I think Cora said very early on that it would be a platoon in right.

 

Cora definitely likes his platoons, for better or worse.

 

I don’t want to re-write history, but if he said this pre-Story, when Suzuki was on the alleged radar, that’s a different matter and an Arroyo-Bradley platoon made sense and worked out defensively.

 

After Story was signed, it looks like Cora was just forcing square pegs. Like I said, there are arguments for and against it, but I don’t agree with the ones for it…

[Maxbialystock]

The Sox didn't do much , but Pham and Hosmer are an improvement from what we have seen. Just a couple.of more wins and the quitters and doubting Thomases will be climbing back on board the wild card train.

 

This isn't the post, but somewhere else on this thread you quoted my "hey, dummy" to Old Red. You were right to call me out. Someone else did too. Talksox should tolerate all kinds of disagreement, but not name-calling.

[Maxbialystock]

Fair. I think we all, myself included, should try to stop taking shots at those who don't agree with us. While Denny's post didn't really bother me other than my strong disagreement to it, we don't want this turning into an 'us versus them' situation like you mentioned in a previous post. Sawxheads 2.0.

 

You don't "take shots." But I did and should have been called out.

[dgalehouse]

Denny, you've been tearing a strip off Bloom supporters for quite a while now, and even made up a joke name for them as a group. So your "let's stick to baseball" statement seems a little hollow.

 

As for Old Red, I think he's only here for pissing matches, so I finally put him on Ignore.

 

Discussing the pros and cons of Bloom , Cora , Dombrowski , etc. is " baseball stuff ". Saying " Hey Dummy " or calling folks " clowns " is not . It's the personal insults that I was referring to. They have nothing to do with baseball. There is a difference between personal insults and a little back and forth about Sox management. Moonslav saying he has " disdain " for a player is okay. A little needling of Bloom and his supporters is not okay. Just trying to understand your ground rules . By the way , I enjoy Old Red's contributions . I don't have anyone on ignore . I am not easily offended . I won't be offended at all if you put me on ignore . Have a nice day.

[JDavis76]

I think his biggest mistake was not getting at least one bullpen arm.

 

I’m pretty anti-Hosmer, but his contract is a non-factor and he’s Keith Hernandez compared to Cordero…

 

I think his biggest mistake was not maximizing the return on the expiring contracts such as eovaldi and jd (and bogey if you are not going to meet his contract demands)

 

To me he basically swapped hosmer and some middling prospects for vaz. Basically treading water.

[notin]

Discussing the pros and cons of Bloom , Cora , Dombrowski , etc. is " baseball stuff ". Saying " Hey Dummy " or calling folks " clowns " is not . It's the personal insults that I was referring to. They have nothing to do with baseball. There is a difference between personal insults and a little back and forth about Sox management. Moonslav saying he has " disdain " for a player is okay. A little needling of Bloom and his supporters is not okay. Just trying to understand your ground rules . By the way , I enjoy Old Red's contributions . I don't have anyone on ignore . I am not easily offended . I won't be offended at all if you put me on ignore . Have a nice day.

 

 

Absolutely true, and you were right to point it out. Max was wrong to do it but right to cop to it and not defend it.

 

And it’s fine to disagree on baseball and how to run a team. But when you start talking about the Bloom Aporeciation Society or whatever, and say they’ll justify anything and everything he does, how is that any better? Are t you essentially labeling people as mindless drones?

[JDavis76]

100%. I was very happy when the deadline passed and JD and Eovaldi were still on the team.

 

There's a lot of work for the team to do, but they have a shot.

 

That certainly hurt your dreams of "long term sustainability".......

[mvp 78]

As if MLB is the "real world". The reason we enjoy it is because it isn't!

 

The games that are played with wins and losses and associated box scores can count as real world IMO.

[Elktonnick]

Games are not real world.

[JDavis76]

In my defense, I have acknowledged mistakes made by Bloom.

 

His overall philosophy, however, is spot on.

 

Well, his "philosophy" combined with his recent actions are very cloudy.

[Maxbialystock]

The case for Bloom--

 

1. He's not only very smart, he basically wrote the book for the Rays who year after year are competitive in the toughest division in MLB--despite a salary base (driven by having a small fan base in Tampa Bay) in the bottom third of MLB teams.

 

2. His predecessor DD was hugely successful mostly because he convinced JH to shell out big bucks for talent and to allow DD to give up prospects as well. 2018 was probably the Sox best season ever and mostly the creation of DD. However, by 2019 the wheels were coming off, and JH fired him and brought in Chaim Bloom, knowing that Bloom's approach would be very different.

 

3. Specifically, Bloom would be a lot more cost-conscious than DD and would likely try to build the farm system vs. trade prospects for known talent. At the same time, however, this team does have a terrific fan base and can afford to spend bucks for talent. Plus, as this thread shows, the Sox fan base can be impatient.

 

4. If we dispense with 2020 as a nonseason because of the pandemic and vastly shortened season, Bloom's first real season was 2021, which turned out really well despite the departures of Mookie and David Price--both of whom went to the Dodgers--and Chris Sale's truncated season (9 games) recovering from TJ surgery. They won 92 games, beat the Yankees ace in the wild card game, beat the 100 win (most in the AL) Rays in the ALDS, and finally lost 4 games to 2 to the Astros. Worth noting: the Sox had no closer in the 2021 postseason, and no saves. The one "blown save" occurred in a 6th inning. Bloom acquisitions Kike Hernandez, Verdugo, Renfroe, Arroyo, Schwarber, Iglesias, Whitlock, Pivetta, and Ottavino definitely helped.

 

5. The 2022 season has definitely been a disappointment--thus the clamor to get rid of the bum in the front office. Good GM's simply don't let this happen. However, I think the boobirds are ignoring some daunting realities--

 

a. By far the most important has been how the rotation was decimated by injuries to Sale, Eovaldi, Whitlock, Wacha, and Hill. How big was this? The Sox team ERA is now 4.25 and ranked 14th out of 15 AL teams--far and away the worst in the John Henry era. And no one on this thread has mentioned that fact. We complain about the bullpen and how Bloom should have fixed it, but ignore that no bullpen can be expected to "save" games in which the starters bombed. On the contrary, what we can expect is that the bullpen will be damaged by having to pitch 2/3 of innings instead of 1/3 of them.

 

b. So was the lineup by injuries to Devers (just 12 games) and Story (now likely to miss July, and August), two of the top three lineup players (the third is Bogey) on the Sox this year. Kike was terrific last year and has missed most of this year. Verdugo was excellent last year and has stunk this year (so some blame accrues to Bloom for acquiring him). Dalbec's OPS was .792 last year and is .647 this year, plus he has yet to master 1b in the field (but looks good lately).

 

c. Bloom's flexibility to fix shortfalls at 1B, in the outfield, and on the pitching staff has been limited by the fact that the budget is already the 6th highest in MLB and includes shelling out $63M for three DD acquisitions (Sale, Price, and Eovaldi) whose combined WAR for the season is a paltry +0.9. Contrast that grim reality with all the griping about paying Story $20M for his so far WAR of +2.1. And I think we can expect Story's hitting to improve.

 

d. Chaim and JH are no doubt still trying to decide how much they want to spend to keep Bogey (who probably wants $250M) and Devers ($500M). Bogey can leave after this season and Devers next season. Both are fan favorites and have played well for the Sox. Bogey had just turned 21 when he had an OPS of .893 in the 2013 postseason (at 3d base). Devers, also at age 21, started all 11 games in the 2018 postseason with an OPS of .734 plus 9 rbi's (4th most on the team). Again, I think I'm the only one who recognizes how difficult these two retention issues are and how they affect other moves Bloom might want to make.

 

e. Story. His WAR for 1/2 of a season (81 games) is +2.1 despite not hitting (OPS .713) as well as he did (OPS .850) for the Rockies. I think he was a good acquisition, even at $20M/year. The Sox were 44-37 with him and 6-12 without.

 

6. Despite all the stuff in 5 above, this Sox team is 1 game over .500 and 2 games from a wild card slot. Last year they were also a wild card team and did well in the postseason.

 

7. Given paras 1-6 above, I frankly do not understand the clamor to dump Bloom and hire someone else. Yes, absolutely, we can gripe about guys we wanted and he didn't get and/or guys he got whom we hate, but the bottom line is that we as fans still have a team to root for as we did last year even though we know that Chaim Bloom, with JH support, is just beginning the process of putting the Sox on a better path than the one DD set (which did, however, produce that fantastic 2018 season and a pretty good 2017 season) which was not sustainable.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Maxbialystock

[Bellhorn04]

Absolutely true, and you were right to point it out. Max was wrong to do it but right to cop to it and not defend it.

 

And it’s fine to disagree on baseball and how to run a team. But when you start talking about the Bloom Aporeciation Society or whatever, and say they’ll justify anything and everything he does, how is that any better? Are t you essentially labeling people as mindless drones?

 

That's basically what I'm saying. It's definitely insulting, and it's done on a regular basis.

 

If people think Bloom is great, what's the big deal? Is it offensive?

[Bellhorn04]

Well, his "philosophy" combined with his recent actions are very cloudy.

 

In spite of which, he has more ALCS appearances than the Yankees do since he was hired by the Sox.

[Old Red]

That's basically what I'm saying. It's definitely insulting, and it's done on a regular basis.

 

If people think Bloom is great, what's the big deal? Is it offensive?

 

Nothing wrong with saying Bloom is great if that’s what you believe, and it is not offensive, but on the other hand it’s not wrong to say Bloom is in over his head if that’s what you believe, and that’s not offensive either. Agreeing to disagree on here seems to be the hard thing to do, and just leaving it at that.

[cp176]

The case for Bloom--

 

1. He's not only very smart, he basically wrote the book for the Rays who year after year are competitive in the toughest division in MLB--despite a salary base (driven by having a small fan base in Tampa Bay) in the bottom third of MLB teams.

 

2. His predecessor DD was hugely successful mostly because he convinced JH to shell out big bucks for talent and to allow DD to give up prospects as well. 2018 was probably the Sox best season ever and mostly the creation of DD. However, by 2019 the wheels were coming off, and JH fired him and brought in Chaim Bloom, knowing that Bloom's approach would be very different.

 

3. Specifically, Bloom would be a lot more cost-conscious than DD and would likely try to build the farm system vs. trade prospects for known talent. At the same time, however, this team does have a terrific fan base and can afford to spend bucks for talent. Plus, as this thread shows, the Sox fan base can be impatient.

 

4. If we dispense with 2020 as a nonseason because of the pandemic and vastly shortened season, Bloom's first real season was 2021, which turned out really well despite the departures of Mookie and David Price--both of whom went to the Dodgers--and Chris Sale's truncated season (9 games) recovering from TJ surgery. They won 92 games, beat the Yankees ace in the wild card game, beat the 100 win (most in the AL) Rays in the ALDS, and finally lost 4 games to 2 to the Astros. Worth noting: the Sox had no closer in the 2021 postseason, and no saves. The one "blown save" occurred in a 6th inning. Bloom acquisitions Kike Hernandez, Verdugo, Renfroe, Arroyo, Schwarber, Iglesias, Whitlock, Pivetta, and Ottavino definitely helped.

 

5. The 2022 season has definitely been a disappointment--thus the clamor to get rid of the bum in the front office. Good GM's simply don't let this happen. However, I think the boobirds are ignoring some daunting realities--

 

a. By far the most important has been how the rotation was decimated by injuries to Sale, Eovaldi, Whitlock, Wacha, and Hill. How big was this? The Sox team ERA is now 4.25 and ranked 14th out of 15 AL teams--far and away the worst in the John Henry era. And no one on this thread has mentioned that fact. We complain about the bullpen and how Bloom should have fixed it, but ignore that no bullpen can be expected to "save" games in which the starters bombed. On the contrary, what we can expect is that the bullpen will be damaged by having to pitch 2/3 of innings instead of 1/3 of them.

 

b. So was the lineup by injuries to Devers (just 12 games) and Story (now likely to miss July, and August), two of the top three lineup players (the third is Bogey) on the Sox this year. Kike was terrific last year and has missed most of this year. Verdugo was excellent last year and has stunk this year (so some blame accrues to Bloom for acquiring him). Dalbec's OPS was .792 last year and is .647 this year, plus he has yet to master 1b in the field (but looks good lately).

 

c. Bloom's flexibility to fix shortfalls at 1B, in the outfield, and on the pitching staff has been limited by the fact that the budget is already the 6th highest in MLB and includes shelling out $63M for three DD acquisitions (Sale, Price, and Eovaldi) whose combined WAR for the season is a paltry +0.9.

 

d. Plus Chaim and JH are no doubt still trying to decide how much they want to spend to keep Bogey (who probably wants $250M) and Devers ($500M). Bogey can leave after this season and Devers next season. Both are fan favorites and have played well for the Sox. Bogey had just turned 21 when he had an OPS of .893 in the 2013 postseason (at 3d base). Devers, also at age 21, started all 11 games in the 2018 postseason with an OPS of .734 plus 9 rbi's (4th most on the team). Again, I think I'm the only one who recognizes how difficult these two retention issues are. That said, JH was more than willing to let Manny Ramirez (on the downside of his career) and then Mookie Betts (still in his prime, age 27) go to the Dodgers when he thought they were overpriced.

 

e. Story. His WAR for 1/2 of a season (81 games) is +2.1 despite not hitting (OPS .713) as well as he did (OPS .850) for the Rockies. I think he was a good acquisition, even at $20M/year. The Sox were 44-37 with him and 6-12 without.

 

His predecessor was and still is one helluva gm. I'm surely willing to give Bloom a shot although to date I'm just confused by his moves. What I really wish is that the small outspoken group of people who whether they will come right out and admit it or not did not like Dave Dombrowski and the way he did his business. it is tiresome to continually here how he ruined the farm system, which I happen to think is a joke even to say. He has been used and abused as a scapegoat long enough. Time to move on. I happen to think that he clearly understood that you need to use all means to build a successful program. I don't know about Bloom at this point. Jury is still out. Personally i might be much more supportive if I had some clue as to what his plan might be. I'm glad for you and the others here who believe that Bloom is the right guy for the job. I hope that you are right. I'm just not convinced at all that what he is doing is going to succeed in Boston. Whatever he does, this is his gig and constantly bringing DD and his moves has nothing to do with what he is doing now. I realize once again that you and others don't agree with that but that really is the way it goes. Real leaders learn from the past, they don't live in it.

[notin]

That's basically what I'm saying. It's definitely insulting, and it's done on a regular basis.

 

If people think Bloom is great, what's the big deal? Is it offensive?

 

Not to mention that zone parole who do overemphasize the farm do so for a couple reasons.

 

Fans like superstar players. Understandable. They help the team and are fun to watch and easy to root for. But there are only 3 ways to get them.

 

1. Develop them

2. Trade for them

3. Sign them as free agents.

 

For all of these, a good farm is essential, whether it’s for having prospects who can become said stars, be traded for said stars, or just become cheap MLB players that enable affording said stars…

[Old Red]

His predecessor was and still is one helluva gm. I'm surely willing to give Bloom a shot although to date I'm just confused by his moves. What I really wish is that the small outspoken group of people who whether they will come right out and admit it or not did not like Dave Dombrowski and the way he did his business. it is tiresome to continually here how he ruined the farm system, which I happen to think is a joke even to say. He has been used and abused as a scapegoat long enough. Time to move on. I happen to think that he clearly understood that you need to use all means to build a successful program. I don't know about Bloom at this point. Jury is still out. Personally i might be much more supportive if I had some clue as to what his plan might be. I'm glad for you and the others here who believe that Bloom is the right guy for the job. I hope that you are right. I'm just not convinced at all that what he is doing is going to succeed in Boston. Whatever he does, this is his gig and constantly bringing DD and his moves has nothing to do with what he is doing now. I realize once again that you and others don't agree with that but that really is the way it goes. Real leaders learn from the past, they don't live in it.

 

Well written, and Bloom has had 3 years to cleanup the so called mess that DD left behind, but what he has done has let a bunch of expiring contracts run out, and unlike the Braves who have their young stars locked up for years to come, but Raffy is still out there twisting in the wind, and getting more expensive everyday.

[JDavis76]

In spite of which, he has more ALCS appearances than the Yankees do since he was hired by the Sox.

 

That's great, do you get a participation trophy for that?

[JDavis76]

The case for Bloom--

 

1. He's not only very smart, he basically wrote the book for the Rays who year after year are competitive in the toughest division in MLB--despite a salary base (driven by having a small fan base in Tampa Bay) in the bottom third of MLB teams.

 

 

Any proof of that? He was never the guy in charge in tampa, so how do we know exactly how much he was responsible for?