Will there be a 2022 season?

[jacksonianmarch]

It's posturing. The players need the money, the owners don't. Manfred was quoted as saying players only need 4 weeks of ST to get ready. If that is the case, the real drop dead date for a full season is March 1

[Bellhorn04]

MLB proposed luxury tax thresholds:

 

214 mill

214

216

218

222

 

But MLB is proposing MONSTER increases in the tax rates.

 

From 20/30/50

 

To 50/75/100 !!!

 

Plus losses of draft picks. You can lose your first-round pick for going over a third time.

 

Yikes.

[Bellhorn04]

It's posturing. The players need the money, the owners don't. Manfred was quoted as saying players only need 4 weeks of ST to get ready. If that is the case, the real drop dead date for a full season is March 1

 

The owners don't need money, but they do like it quite a bit, apparently.

 

Otherwise they wouldn't be fighting so hard for some of these spending disincentives.

[Bellhorn04]

Having read this latest "proposal" by the owners, it's pretty clear they are playing big-time hardball, and this season is very much in trouble.

[S5Dewey]

The owners don't need money.

 

This ^ is speculation. It's speculation because the owners don't have to open their books and therefore we don't have knowledge that it's true. It's speculation that I agree with but it's one of the issues that makes this difficult for fans.

 

According to what I read recently the owners have now requested a mediator.. This was done with the expectation that the PA would reject it but it would put the blame for the work stoppage on the backs of the players. After all, wouldn't the PA welcome a mediator if it would get baseball players on the field again?

 

The PA rejected mediation because 1) negotiations haven't reached an impasse. Negotiations are still ongoing - slow, but ongoing, and 2) if the two sides fail to reach an agreement after mediation the owners (otherwise known as MLB) would have the right to institute their 'most recent and best offer', essentially forcing the players to either go back to work under the old CBA or go on strike.

 

Very possibly the biggest issue now isn't the CBA but instead who's responsible for the work stoppage.

[S5Dewey]

At the risk of resurrecting the discussion about collusion, it's getting more obvious that MLB is the umbrella under which the owners are allowed to collude (hence the anti-trust exemption). If they weren't allowed to collude each team could negotiate independently with its players. Then those teams wishing to play baseball could put a team on the field through individual negotiations.

 

Would it be a cluster..k? Yep! Just the talent level on the teams would be affected, not to mention scheduling, etc. So Yes.

Would both owners and players be hurt by it? Probably.

Would it be capitalism in it's truer form? Yes!

 

This only points out that it's ludicrous to even think that baseball in 2022 is a "series of exhibitions"* and not an interstate business, and that it therefore shouldn't be subject to the anti-trust provisions of the Sherman anti-trust act prohibiting a monopoly.

 

*Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, 1922.

[Old Red]

The owners don't need money, but they do like it quite a bit, apparently.

 

Otherwise they wouldn't be fighting so hard for some of these spending disincentives.

 

Maybe they should switch sides for awhile. The owners could be the players, and the players could be the owners, and see how that works out, and then be locked in a room till this thing gets settled.

[Bellhorn04]

This ^ is speculation. It's speculation because the owners don't have to open their books and therefore we don't have knowledge that it's true. It's speculation that I agree with but it's one of the issues that makes this difficult for fans.

 

According to what I read recently the owners have now requested a mediator.. This was done with the expectation that the PA would reject it but it would put the blame for the work stoppage on the backs of the players. After all, wouldn't the PA welcome a mediator if it would get baseball players on the field again?

 

The PA rejected mediation because 1) negotiations haven't reached an impasse. Negotiations are still ongoing - slow, but ongoing, and 2) if the two sides fail to reach an agreement after mediation the owners (otherwise known as MLB) would have the right to institute their 'most recent and best offer', essentially forcing the players to either go back to work under the old CBA or go on strike.

 

Very possibly the biggest issue now isn't the CBA but instead who's responsible for the work stoppage.

 

The increases in tax rates being asked for by the owners are crazy.

 

Going from 20/30/50 to 50/75/100 - are you kidding me?

 

To me that's a telltale sign this is not going to be settled any time soon.

[Bellhorn04]

With what's going on with NFL owners (like Miami's and Washington's) I am just about ready to join the club that thinks most sports team owners are complete jackasses.

 

But I do not include Henry in that group, because to me he has treated Red Sox fans pretty well from Day One.

[S5Dewey]

The increases in tax rates being asked for by the owners are crazy.

 

Going from 20/30/50 to 50/75/100 - are you kidding me?

 

To me that's a telltale sign this is not going to be settled any time soon.

 

I saw that. It's AMAZING. It shows that the owners aren't serious about getting the season underway.

 

It also could be an indication that the "richer" owners are being held hostage by those owners who want a bigger piece of the CBT pie. That wouldn't be quite so hard to swallow if those owners had already shown signs of using the money to improve their roster.

 

It would almost be laughable to watch the owners while they 'eat one another' if it weren't fans like us who are paying the price for their playground antics.

Edited February 13, 2022 by S5Dewey

[notin]

So if there is no season, do players still get paid? It’s not like they went on strike; the owners imposed a lockout.

 

If these guys still have to pay, say, Corey Seager $32mill to not play baseball, it might be an incentive for them to recoup their expenses…

[notin]

The increases in tax rates being asked for by the owners are crazy.

 

Going from 20/30/50 to 50/75/100 - are you kidding me?

 

To me that's a telltale sign this is not going to be settled any time soon.

 

 

It’s actually a stupid proposal by the owners, because they’re asking to penalize themselves for spending.

 

I get they’re trying to impose penalties for spending too much, but this idea is not new and it’s never limited certain iwners anyway. And since the bulk of owners never reached that limit anyway, it’s not really that severe.

 

If I’m head of the MLBPA, I’m ok with these limits, knowing the increased limit really will have a greater impact than the self-imposed tax penalty anyway…

[Bellhorn04]

It’s actually a stupid proposal by the owners, because they’re asking to penalize themselves for spending.

 

I get they’re trying to impose penalties for spending too much, but this idea is not new and it’s never limited certain iwners anyway. And since the bulk of owners never reached that limit anyway, it’s not really that severe.

 

If I’m head of the MLBPA, I’m ok with these limits, knowing the increased limit really will have a greater impact than the self-imposed tax penalty anyway…

 

The increases to the limits are pretty small - especially in view of the inflationary trend. But they're reasonable.

 

The increases in the tax rates are kind of bizarre.

 

It's almost like they're trying to put the clamps on the Dodgers...

[jad]

With what's going on with NFL owners (like Miami's and Washington's) I am just about ready to join the club that thinks most sports team owners are complete jackasses.

 

But I do not include Henry in that group, because to me he has treated Red Sox fans pretty well from Day One.

 

Welcome! To me, even the better sports owners are jackasses and jock-sniffers. Among the problems is that sports-ownership is (for some, not all) as much a 'hobby' as a business (although I suppose a lot of other businesses are similar). Owners are less concerned with the bottom line than with proving what a bunch of bad-asses they are. They get off on scr*wing over players in the same way they enjoy extorting public funds for, say, new stadiums etc.

 

(I don't know [or particularly care] whether that opinion is rational or well-founded; but I do suspect there is nothing sports owners will ever do to change it.)

[Bellhorn04]

Welcome! To me, even the better sports owners are jackasses and jock-sniffers. Among the problems is that sports-ownership is (for some, not all) as much a 'hobby' as a business (although I suppose a lot of other businesses are similar). Owners are less concerned with the bottom line than with proving what a bunch of bad-asses they are. They get off on scr*wing over players in the same way they enjoy extorting public funds for, say, new stadiums etc.

 

(I don't know [or particularly care] whether that opinion is rational or well-founded; but I do suspect there is nothing sports owners will ever do to change it.)

 

I understand how you feel.

 

The only issue for me is that as a pro sports fan, I have to admit that I'm part of the problem. If it wasn't for pro sports fans, there would be no pro sports teams and no team owners.

[dgalehouse]

It's all just standard negotiating tactics. Don't get all worked up over it. It will all get worked out in the end. And the fans , as always, will foot the bill.

[Bellhorn04]

It's all just standard negotiating tactics. Don't get all worked up over it. It will all get worked out in the end. And the fans , as always, will foot the bill.

 

Well, I think we have good reason to be concerned that we're not going to get a full season, based on the less than glorious history of MLB negotiations.

 

But if you're OK with a 120 game season, then sure, you can sit back and relax...

[notin]

The increases to the limits are pretty small - especially in view of the inflationary trend. But they're reasonable.

 

The increases in the tax rates are kind of bizarre.

 

It's almost like they're trying to put the clamps on the Dodgers...

 

Specifically in the Dodgers’ owner. Aka one of their own.

 

The limit increases are small, but the MLBPA need not balk at tax penalties that only affect 4 or 5 teams anyway. What they need is clauses to assure all penalties go back into ball clubs. Take away the whiny poverty cries from the Pirates and Marlins, etc. and give them cash they are required to spend…

[Bellhorn04]

Specifically in the Dodgers’ owner. Aka one of their own.

 

The limit increases are small, but the MLBPA need not balk at tax penalties that only affect 4 or 5 teams anyway. What they need is clauses to assure all penalties go back into ball clubs. Take away the whiny poverty cries from the Pirates and Marlins, etc. and give them cash they are required to spend…

 

The thing is, bumping the rates that much is almost the same as establishing a hard cap.

[Nick]

As a player my thoughts would be following...

 

Instead of penalizing big spenders, I'd want mlb to place a minimum payroll standards. If a team can't meet it, then the mlb should force that owner to sell, go even as far as 'buying' it while a buyer can be found.

 

In essence, MLB operates similar to franchisees. There are typically minimum standards. If say the Reds can't meet it, force them to sell. Quit penalizing Sox for ineptitude of lesser teams.

 

I would go far as reducing the number of teams.

[oldtimer]

In any negotiation, no side goes in with their best proposal. An offer is made and then a counter offer is proposed. I don't see where the Players Association is making any counter offers. They are coming in with it's either my way or the highway. The way things are going, there will be a significant delay to the start of the season.

 

From what I read of the recent posts, the flavor is the owners are a bunch of greedy crass people and its their approach that is causing all the issues. I don't share that view and think there is blame to be levied on both sides. The result will probably be a delay of months and that will turn off the fan base, cost players, owners, workers and municipalities lots of income. Good faith bargaining is needed but isn't happening.

[Nick]

Estimated lowest payroll in 2021

 

Miami $32M

Orioles $42M

Pirates $49M

Guardians $49M

Rangers $55M

Rays $63M

Seattle $64M

 

Players should be bitching at these teams.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Nick

[Nick]

In any negotiation, no side goes in with their best proposal. An offer is made and then a counter offer is proposed. I don't see where the Players Association is making any counter offers. They are coming in with it's either my way or the highway. The way things are going, there will be a significant delay to the start of the season.

 

From what I read of the recent posts, the flavor is the owners are a bunch of greedy crass people and its their approach that is causing all the issues. I don't share that view and think there is blame to be levied on both sides. The result will probably be a delay of months and that will turn off the fan base, cost players, owners, workers and municipalities lots of income. Good faith bargaining is needed but isn't happening.

 

Universal DH will bring additional high paying jobs for 15 veteran players. That should not be discounted.

 

No compensation pick attached to FA signing will benefit the players.

 

Talk of raising minimum wage and a bonus pool for 0-3 year players will benefit the players.

 

Looks to me like owners are making concessions.

[Nick]

Do you know what athletes have most guts?

 

Golfers....each week they are paid for their performance. Sure there are endorsement deals after success and pay for play exhibition rounds.

 

What if we tie player pay to WAR? To be paid out of singular MLB compensation pool? Would the players go for that? Would Betts? Would Cole? I doubt it. They just want the upside. They have no guts. They won't take a pay cut for a down year.

 

Owners take risks. Please don't paint the players as saints.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Nick

[jad]

I understand how you feel.

 

The only issue for me is that as a pro sports fan, I have to admit that I'm part of the problem. If it wasn't for pro sports fans, there would be no pro sports teams and no team owners.

 

Ha! Excellent point! The first step is for us all to admit we have a problem.

[Old Red]

Do you know what athletes have most guts?

 

Golfers....each week they are paid for their performance. Sure there are endorsement deals after success and pay for play exhibition rounds.

 

What if we tie player pay to WAR? To be paid out of singular MLB compensation pool? Would the players go for that? Would Betts? Would Cole? I doubt it. They just want the upside. They have no guts. They won't take a pay cut for a down year.

 

Owners take risks. Please don't paint the players as saints.

 

If players don’t like what they are getting paid then let them find another job.

[notin]

The thing is, bumping the rates that much is almost the same as establishing a hard cap.

 

80% of the league feels that way about much lower limits anyway. And when have the Yankees and Dodgers been deterred by a luxury tax?

[Bellhorn04]

80% of the league feels that way about much lower limits anyway. And when have the Yankees and Dodgers been deterred by a luxury tax?

 

The Yankees have arguably been deterred by the tax for a while now. When was the last time they paid a big chunk of it?

[notin]

The Yankees have arguably been deterred by the tax for a while now. When was the last time they paid a big chunk of it?

 

 

While I don’t know the answer, they have certainly been big spenders. They gave Gerrit Cole the largest contract for a starting pitcher only 2 years ago…

[Bellhorn04]

While I don’t know the answer, they have certainly been big spenders. They gave Gerrit Cole the largest contract for a starting pitcher only 2 years ago…

 

They certainly did. I'm not saying they're turning into the Pirates.

 

But the old Yankees would have added another expensive starter to Cole.

 

Their total payroll has kind of "stabilized" in recent years.