Red Sox trade Hunter Renfroe in trade involving Jackie Bradley Jr

[Bellhorn04]

You are all about the difference in money between JBJ, and Renfroe. All I’m saying is I would have liked more money spent on the rotation, and not gotten guys like Whacka.

 

Think we should have signed E-Rod?

[Old Red]

It was 1 year of Betts for 5 years of Verdugo, that's why it was a good deal.

 

I have stated many times that I would not give out any $300M contracts, and Mookie did not want to stay anyways, so if you look at like you said I would agree with that.

[Old Red]

Think we should have signed E-Rod?

 

For what he signed for in Detroit? Yes.

[moonslav59]

Can't have it both ways. You either trust him or you don't. I'd say you don't.

 

I wouldn’t say scratching my head at one move out if dozens and dozens shows distrust.

 

I don’t like the move, but I trust he knows more than I do.

 

BTW, I’ve liked several of his moves that ended up flipping. Does that count for anything?

[mvp 78]

I understand all about the prospect aspect of everything, but if these prospects for Renfroe never take the field for the Sox the trade is Renfroe for JBJ. My problem with the trade, which I’ve said all along is that the Sox never would have given JBJ the contract that the Brewers did in the first place, and now they are taking that contract on for 2 more years anyway, and in the meantime signing retreads for the rotation. To me more money should have been spent on the rotation, and not JBJ. If more money had been spent on the rotation, which was the biggest need I wouldn’t have had such a big problem with this trade.

 

1. They are taking on the contract for only 2 years, not the full 3 the Brewers signed him to.

2. The value of the prospects matters regardless if the ever play in Boston.

3. The trade for JBJ shouldn't have any affect on who else Bloom signs. It's clear he wasn't going to nab top tier SP talent this year. They weren't even linked to anybody before the deal came about.

4. The offseason is not over. Bloom has more work to do.

[mvp 78]

Do the math though. The difference in money between JBJ and Renfroe is peanuts compared to what it would have taken to sign E-Rod, for example.

 

They were obviously not comfortable with that ERod deal. If you ignore FIP, I can see some of the concerns. It's a lot of guaranteed money for a guy who is only a 3rd of 4th starter.

[moonslav59]

1. Bloom values defense.

2. JBJ's value was at a low point after a dreadful 2021 and is likely to rebound somewhat.

3. Bloom values prospects.

4. Hunter was getting to a contract amount where it was likely that his performance would no longer match what he was being paid.

 

I get the defense and prospects, and maybe that will outweigh the other aspects, but JBJ’s offensive decline stretches longer than 2021. Counting a decent season in the 60 game 2020 season does not change the fact that his offence has not been very good for 4-5 years, now.

 

Sure, he’s young enough to still possibly have another decent year in him, but the bounce back argument rings hallow to me. He can improve by 100-150 points over 2021 and still be a negative on offense.

 

Yes, Renfroe may likely be near even in 2022 production per dollar, but JBJ will more likely be an overall negative than Renfroe, and I’d say much more likely. The odds are not even close.

 

It has to be about the prospects and defense.

[mvp 78]

It was 1 year of Betts for 5 years of Verdugo, that's why it was a good deal.

 

It's what people have said.

[Hugh2]

Whats the real difference in value between JBJ and Renfroe? I think it's obvious that Renfroe is more valuable than JBJ that's a no-brainer. But if you project reasonable progression and regression into the equation Renfroe is marginally more valuable than JBJ. Now you add the prospects into the equation, now if the Sox go out and buy a better RF than Renfroe and JBJ becomes an upgrade for your 4th outfielder how much better does the roster get?

 

I'm not going to judge this trade until opening day, because I believe it's a precursor to other moves.

[mvp 78]

You are all about the difference in money between JBJ, and Renfroe. All I’m saying is I would have liked more money spent on the rotation, and not gotten guys like Whacka.

 

I wanted them to sign Stroman more than anything else. They never gave any indication they were going that route. JBJ came at the very end of the last CBA. I don't think the pitching contracts have any impact on JBJ and vice versa.

[moonslav59]

A 700 season would be a surprise? He's only had one season below that mark since 2015. In his past 5 years, he's had one 800 season, three 700 seasons and one season below 700.

 

I guess age matters. Okay, maybe .700 would not be a big surprise.

 

Would it surprise you, if he hit .600-.650?

[moonslav59]

And moon says JBJ is his favorite player.

 

Years ago.

 

I still like the guy and love the defense, but he’s not at the same level anymore.

 

Are we supposed to hate our favourite players as they decline?

 

Can I be honest about what player he is now?

[mvp 78]

I get the defense and prospects, and maybe that will outweigh the other aspects, but JBJ’s offensive decline stretches longer than 2021. Counting a decent season in the 60 game 2020 season does not change the fact that his offence has not been very good for 4-5 years, now.

 

Sure, he’s young enough to still possibly have another decent year in him, but the bounce back argument rings hallow to me. He can improve by 100-150 points over 2021 and still be a negative on offense.

 

Yes, Renfroe may likely be near even in 2022 production per dollar, but JBJ will more likely be an overall negative than Renfroe, and I’d say much more likely. The odds are not even close.

 

It has to be about the prospects and defense.

 

Ignore one volcanic season of 2016 and there's no decline.

 

WRC+ by year:

 

2016 118

2017 89

2018 90

2019 89

2020 119

2021 35

 

Before 2021, where's the decline, moon? I don't think anyone on here expects JBJ to ever replicate 2016. It seems more like 2016 and 2021 are the aberrations.

[moonslav59]

Do the math though. The difference in money between JBJ and Renfroe is peanuts compared to what it would have taken to sign E-Rod, for example.

 

Renfroe was not a salary dump like JBJ.

 

We could have traded him for a cheaper RFer or a RPer

[mvp 78]

I guess age matters. Okay, maybe .700 would not be a big surprise.

 

Would it surprise you, if he hit .600-.650?

 

Steamer has him projected at 650, so no it wouldn't be a surprise. We've also seen the rollercoaster ride with JBJ. You need to ride with him when he's hot and hope his cold stretches don't last. He production can be very volatile.

[mvp 78]

Years ago.

 

I still like the guy and love the defense, but he’s not at the same level anymore.

 

Are we supposed to hate our favourite players as they decline?

 

Can I be honest about what player he is now?

 

Aside from 2021, where's the decline?

[moonslav59]

Whats the real difference in value between JBJ and Renfroe? I think it's obvious that Renfroe is more valuable than JBJ that's a no-brainer. But if you project reasonable progression and regression into the equation Renfroe is marginally more valuable than JBJ. Now you add the prospects into the equation, now if the Sox go out and buy a better RF than Renfroe and JBJ becomes an upgrade for your 4th outfielder how much better does the roster get?

 

I'm not going to judge this trade until opening day, because I believe it's a precursor to other moves.

 

You left out the money part that will prohibit us from signing a better player or two.

[mvp 78]

Renfroe was not a salary dump like JBJ.

 

We could have traded him for a cheaper RFer or a RPer

 

I think I'd rather have an expensive JBJ plus two prospects than a reliever.

[mvp 78]

I'd be more concerned if JBJ's glove was slowing down, but last year he had his best dWAR season since 2017.

[Bellhorn04]

Renfroe was not a salary dump like JBJ.

 

We could have traded him for a cheaper RFer or a RPer

 

Bloom liked the prospects, obviously.

[Bellhorn04]

I think I'd rather have an expensive JBJ plus two prospects than a reliever.

 

Seriously.

[Old Red]

1. They are taking on the contract for only 2 years, not the full 3 the Brewers signed him to.

2. The value of the prospects matters regardless if the ever play in Boston.

3. The trade for JBJ shouldn't have any affect on who else Bloom signs. It's clear he wasn't going to nab top tier SP talent this year. They weren't even linked to anybody before the deal came about.

4. The offseason is not over. Bloom has more work to do.

 

The point is that the Red Sox would have never given JBJ a contract paying him $10+M at the time he became a FA if it had only been for 1 yr, and now they will pay him for 2 yrs coming off a 160 season, and trading away 96 RBI in the process. Even in his prime his D would not make up the difference, and now at 32 he may have lost a step. I didn’t like this trade when it happened, and I like it even less now. I was all for trading Renfroe, but not for JBJ.

[Bellhorn04]

You left out the money part that will prohibit us from signing a better player or two.

 

Two better players for the difference between JBJ's money and Renfroe's money? Say what?

[moonslav59]

Aside from 2021, where's the decline?

 

Aside from 2020 it’s clear.

 

OPS+ over 118 in 2015 and 2016 and never above 92 in the next 4 full seasons.

 

BWAR:

 

5.4

3.8

2.5

2.0

2.0 (short season)

-0.7

 

You don’t see a decline beyond 2020 to 2021?

 

[moonslav59]

Bloom liked the prospects, obviously.

 

That’s been my point all along, and here’s where I trust him more than myself and others viewpoints on the likelihood either of the prospects do something positive for the big club someday.

[Bellhorn04]

The point is that the Red Sox would have never given JBJ a contract paying him $10+M at the time he became a FA if it had only been for 1 yr, and now they will pay him for 2 yrs coming off a 160 season, and trading away 96 RBI in the process. Even in his prime his D would not make up the difference, and now at 32 he may have lost a step. I didn’t like this trade when it happened, and I like it even less now. I was all for trading Renfroe, but not for JBJ.

 

You do realize that Renfroe was coming off a 160 season when Bloom acquired him? That guys like Renfroe and JBJ tend to fluctuate with the bat?

[Bellhorn04]

That’s been my point all along, and here’s where I trust him more than myself and others viewpoints on the likelihood either of the prospects do something positive for the big club someday.

 

Well if that's been your point all along, why are you still head-scratching?

[moonslav59]

I think I'd rather have an expensive JBJ plus two prospects than a reliever.

 

A RPer plus a boatload of money to sign another player or two of upgrade a singing.

 

I don’t get why many seem to overlook the money. We seem to have a finite budget, so adding salary in one trade means less spending on other moves,

[mvp 78]

Aside from 2020 it’s clear.

 

OPS+ over 118 in 2015 and 2016 and never above 92 in the next 4 full seasons.

 

BWAR:

 

5.4

3.8

2.5

2.0

2.0 (short season)

-0.7

 

You don’t see a decline beyond 2020 to 2021?

 

 

I don't see a decline because I believe 2016 is overly inflated and not likely to repeat. What would his 2020 season looked like if it was a full 162 games? We have no idea.

[Bellhorn04]

A RPer plus a boatload of money to sign another player or two of upgrade a singing.

 

I don’t get why many seem to overlook the money. We seem to have a finite budget, so adding salary in one trade means less spending on other moves,

 

What boatload of money?