Red Sox trade Hunter Renfroe in trade involving Jackie Bradley Jr

[Bellhorn04]

When push come to shove, no player is worth $300M contracts.

 

There haven't been any good $300M contracts yet. Of course, that's partially because they only started handing them out recently. But it remains to be seen if any will be good investments.

[moonslav59]

I’m not scratching my head at all. Bloom's approach is a little different, but I think he has an idea what he's doing.

 

I trust Bloom, but to me this was a head scratcher.

 

Maybe it’s just lice.

[moonslav59]

Great point and this is where Moon is off base.

 

It did not cost Sox the entirety of JBJ contract. You have to reduce that liability by debt relief provided by Renfroe's contract, estimated to be $7M for 2022. My guess is Bloom as a former executive of Rays is betting Renfroe reached his peak offensively and his defense was suspect despite having high assist figure in 2021. It would be a typical Rays move, sell high on a player. Don't fall in love with a player.

 

I'm one of those fans that's devoted to Sox. As long as the team is winning I will never complain. Sure it would be nice to retain Betts of the world but free agency is about player movement. Some here should be on suicide watch if we can't retain Devers. Not me. I'm just as anxious to see what type of return we can get for him.

 

When push come to shove, no player is worth $300M contracts.

 

I did not forget the Renfroe offset, and if Renfroe does well in ‘22, he’ll make even more in his last arb year.

 

I still think it’s a gross overpay, unless the prospects do well, or JBJ surprises us with a .700+ season, or Renfroe stinks up the place.

 

BTW, you don’t “have to” offset JBJs contract with Renfroe’s, since we could have just traded Renfroe for a lower paid RF’er.

[Old Red]

I did not forget the Renfroe offset, and if Renfroe does well in ‘22, he’ll make even more in his last arb year.

 

I still think it’s a gross overpay, unless the prospects do well, or JBJ surprises us with a .700+ season, or Renfroe stinks up the place.

 

BTW, you don’t “have to” offset JBJs contract with Renfroe’s, since we could have just traded Renfroe for a lower paid RF’er.

 

A gross overpay is right. Bloom cashes in bottles, and cans, and shops in the bargain basement for starting pitching, and then goes out, and pays JBJ $10+M that they never would have signed him for in the first place after he became a FA after the 2020 season. Renfroe was a big surprise with his 96 RBI, but I don’t see any big surprises coming from JBJ’s bat.

[notin]

A gross overpay is right. Bloom cashes in bottles, and cans, and shops in the bargain basement for starting pitching, and then goes out, and pays JBJ $10+M that they never would have signed him for in the first place after he became a FA after the 2020 season. Renfroe was a big surprise with his 96 RBI, but I don’t see any big surprises coming from JBJ’s bat.

 

Well, obviously.

 

If you saw them coming, then they wouldn’t be surprises, now would they?

[Old Red]

Well, obviously.

 

If you saw them coming, then they wouldn’t be surprises, now would they?

 

I guess it depends on how high, or how low you set the bar for JBJ.

[Bellhorn04]

I trust Bloom, but to me this was a head scratcher.

 

Maybe it’s just lice.

 

Can't have it both ways. You either trust him or you don't. I'd say you don't.

[mvp 78]

Playing devil's advocate.....what if we do the Ottavino deal with another club? Trade JBJ for prospects and pay most of his salary?

 

Ok.

[mvp 78]

The Sox did not trade Renfroe for JBJ, and take on a bigger salary to trade him off prospects, or not. Only Bloom knows why The JBJ deal was done in the first place.

 

1. Bloom values defense.

2. JBJ's value was at a low point after a dreadful 2021 and is likely to rebound somewhat.

3. Bloom values prospects.

4. Hunter was getting to a contract amount where it was likely that his performance would no longer match what he was being paid.

[mvp 78]

Prospects? Did someone say prospects? Prospects who might not ever play a meaningful inning for the Red Sox. Jeter Downs, or Wong might not play a meaningful inning either. Prospects are nothing more than that, which may never produce.

 

That's why you obtain as many as possible. The more you have, the more likely you'll have one pan out. A strong pipeline helps because you can have cheap labor come up to the MLB team so that you can afford more expensive contracts for top tier talent. You can also spin those prospects to other teams to fill a hole on your own.

[Bellhorn04]

The explanations seem simple enough to me!

 

But Old Red and moon will continue to be befuddled.

[mvp 78]

One other thing that occurred to me about trading Renfroe is that not only does he get a raise from 3.1 million to an estimated 7.6 million, but he'll get another similar raise for 2023, in his 3rd year of arbitration. So assuming you wanted to keep Renfroe the next 2 years, you'd be paying him 18-19 million for the 2 years, and then he's a free agent. So while it was a great contract for 2021, for 2022-23 it's not.

 

Even if he replicates 2021 in 2022, he becomes harder to deal since there is less team control.

[mvp 78]

I’m not scratching my head at all. Bloom's approach is a little different, but I think he has an idea what he's doing.

 

^^^

[mvp 78]

You left out the improvement in defense. Our defense needed an upgrade somewhere.

 

If your offense is going to dip down, you can stay at a similar production level by adding defense.

[mvp 78]

Great point and this is where Moon is off base.

 

It did not cost Sox the entirety of JBJ contract. You have to reduce that liability by debt relief provided by Renfroe's contract, estimated to be $7M for 2022. My guess is Bloom as a former executive of Rays is betting Renfroe reached his peak offensively and his defense was suspect despite having high assist figure in 2021. It would be a typical Rays move, sell high on a player. Don't fall in love with a player.

 

I'm one of those fans that's devoted to Sox. As long as the team is winning I will never complain. Sure it would be nice to retain Betts of the world but free agency is about player movement. Some here should be on suicide watch if we can't retain Devers. Not me. I'm just as anxious to see what type of return we can get for him.

 

When push come to shove, no player is worth $300M contracts.

 

Agree with almost everything except the last sentence.

[mvp 78]

There haven't been any good $300M contracts yet. Of course, that's partially because they only started handing them out recently. But it remains to be seen if any will be good investments.

 

ARod's first contract was worth it. I would equate the 250M contract signed over 20 years ago with the monster deals signed now.

[mvp 78]

I did not forget the Renfroe offset, and if Renfroe does well in ‘22, he’ll make even more in his last arb year.

 

I still think it’s a gross overpay, unless the prospects do well, or JBJ surprises us with a .700+ season, or Renfroe stinks up the place.

 

BTW, you don’t “have to” offset JBJs contract with Renfroe’s, since we could have just traded Renfroe for a lower paid RF’er.

 

A 700 season would be a surprise? He's only had one season below that mark since 2015. In his past 5 years, he's had one 800 season, three 700 seasons and one season below 700.

[mvp 78]

I guess it depends on how high, or how low you set the bar for JBJ.

 

I'm guessing he'll be about 720 OPS with solid defense. 1.5-2 fWAR player.

[mvp 78]

The explanations seem simple enough to me!

 

But Old Red and moon will continue to be befuddled.

 

I'm doing my best to not say anything ageist.

[Bellhorn04]

A 700 season would be a surprise? He's only had one season below that mark since 2015. In his past 5 years, he's had one 800 season, three 700 seasons and one season below 700.

 

And moon says JBJ is his favorite player.

[Old Red]

The explanations seem simple enough to me!

 

But Old Red and moon will continue to be befuddled.

 

I’m not giddy with prospects like some of you are on here. I didn’t like Jeter Downs, and Wong, and I don’t like the prospects they got for Renfroe who none of them may contribute much of anything to the Sox. Give me actual players like Duggie any time who you know they can play.

[mvp 78]

And moon says JBJ is his favorite player.

 

I've already go a TRADE JBJ thread in my drafts, but at least give him some credit. One bad year isn't always a sign that the player will never be good again. Maybe the switch to the new league was a bigger adjustment than he thought it would be? Maybe he'll be more comfortable back in Fenway? I'm sure he's going to get a big pop on Opening Day from the fans.

[Bellhorn04]

I’m not giddy with prospects like some of you are on here. I didn’t like Jeter Downs, and Wong, and I don’t like the prospects they got for Renfroe who none of them may contribute much of anything to the Sox. Give me actual players like Duggie any time who you know they can play.

 

Yes, well, to get a player like Duggie you give to give something back like a Mookie Betts.

 

Bloom isn't a miracle-worker. He's not going to get blue chip prospects for trash.

[mvp 78]

I’m not giddy with prospects like some of you are on here. I didn’t like Jeter Downs, and Wong, and I don’t like the prospects they got for Renfroe who none of them may contribute much of anything to the Sox. Give me actual players like Duggie any time who you know they can play.

 

It's not about being giddy. It's about knowing the inherent value of having a bunch of guys in your system. Most won't pan out! However, you have a pipeline to keep payroll costs down. You have a pipeline because the players are fungible assets that you can deal at the deadline to bolster your MLB team.

[mvp 78]

Yes, well, to get a player like Duggie you give to give something back like a Mookie Betts.

 

Bloom isn't a miracle-worker. He's not going to get blue chip prospects for trash.

 

Some would even say that Mookie for Verdugo straight up would have been a good deal. Getting Downs and Wong are just a bonus.

 

Also, I believe Wong had the highest WAR/162 for any catcher on the Sox. Seems like not liking him is weird!

[Old Red]

It's not about being giddy. It's about knowing the inherent value of having a bunch of guys in your system. Most won't pan out! However, you have a pipeline to keep payroll costs down. You have a pipeline because the players are fungible assets that you can deal at the deadline to bolster your MLB team.

 

I understand all about the prospect aspect of everything, but if these prospects for Renfroe never take the field for the Sox the trade is Renfroe for JBJ. My problem with the trade, which I’ve said all along is that the Sox never would have given JBJ the contract that the Brewers did in the first place, and now they are taking that contract on for 2 more years anyway, and in the meantime signing retreads for the rotation. To me more money should have been spent on the rotation, and not JBJ. If more money had been spent on the rotation, which was the biggest need I wouldn’t have had such a big problem with this trade.

[Old Red]

Some would even say that Mookie for Verdugo straight up would have been a good deal. Getting Downs and Wong are just a bonus.

 

Also, I believe Wong had the highest WAR/162 for any catcher on the Sox. Seems like not liking him is weird!

 

Only some on here would say Betts for Duggie straight up would have been a good deal.

[Bellhorn04]

I understand all about the prospect aspect of everything, but if these prospects for Renfroe never take the field for the Sox the trade is Renfroe for JBJ. My problem with the trade, which I’ve said all along is that the Sox never would have given JBJ the contract that the Brewers did in the first place, and now they are taking that contract on for 2 more years anyway, and in the meantime signing retreads for the rotation. To me more money should have been spent on the rotation, and not JBJ. If more money had been spent on the rotation, which was the biggest need I wouldn’t have had such a big problem with this trade.

 

Do the math though. The difference in money between JBJ and Renfroe is peanuts compared to what it would have taken to sign E-Rod, for example.

[Bellhorn04]

Only some on here would say Betts for Duggie straight up would have been a good deal.

 

It was 1 year of Betts for 5 years of Verdugo, that's why it was a good deal.

[Old Red]

Do the math though. The difference in money between JBJ and Renfroe is peanuts compared to what it would have taken to sign E-Rod, for example.

 

You are all about the difference in money between JBJ, and Renfroe. All I’m saying is I would have liked more money spent on the rotation, and not gotten guys like Whacka.