Red Sox trade Hunter Renfroe in trade involving Jackie Bradley Jr

[mvp 78]

I can see why he and others are not scratching their heads, but I still do not

Like this one move.

 

Another factor might be that we will spend over the tax line, so the money aspect is lessened. I’m going on the assumption that we are trying to stick to a strict budget under or near the tax line. If we end up signing Story or Suzuki, then the whole budget aspect of my position will change.

 

I’m not sure why

My head scratching over one deal seems to bother you so much.

 

I'm going on the assumption that Bloom knows how much he has to spend and that he's not going to beat his head against the cap without being prepared for it.

[mvp 78]

I can see JBJ being a 4th OFer and a defensive replacement. I don't think Bloom intends for him to be our everyday CFer or RFer. I think he has something else in mind for the outfield.

 

What are the moves you'd make that would cause the JBJ trade to make more sense? Signing another OFer? Bringing in a better 2B?

[mvp 78]

His AAV is $12M.

 

He has an $8M buyout for 2023 or another $12M to stay.

 

It’s basically a $12M x 2 deal or $17.5M for 1.

 

To me, that’s a boatload of money that could have upgraded a Wacha and of Hill or could be used to sign a very good IFer of RPer or two decent players.

 

No, it’s not a$300M deal but $17.5 to $24M is a lot of money on a tight budget team. Hello .

 

What additional features can we buy that will upgrade Wacha? Power steering?

 

Why do you make so many assumptions about what the budget will be? Don't the Sox have a history of going over when they need to?

[mvp 78]

What additional features can we buy that will upgrade Wacha? Power steering?

 

Why do you make so many assumptions about what the budget will be? Don't the Sox have a history of going over when they need to?

 

Maybe they see 2022 as a last go at it with Sale, Xander and JD possibly not being part of the plans in 2023?

[mvp 78]

I'm not sure what Bloom's plan is regarding JBJ, but I do think that there are subsequent moves coming regarding our outfield. That may or may not involve trading JBJ.

 

I don't see them trading JBJ. I do see them acquiring many more pieces to fill out the roster though. If not, it's because they have extended Raffy and Xander.

[moonslav59]

Bloom likes prospects, because he has to. Do you think Bloom would act, or react the way he does if he had a bigger checkbook like Dombrowski did? Do you think he would be making a lot different kind of deals?

 

No doubt, but Bloom also has a history of trading decent to very good players got prospects not generally thought of as sure fire MLers, but who ended up being very good ML players.

 

I do think he expects more from these two prospects than we do.

 

I get that his strategy is to add prospects to the pool in hopes a few come through, but I don’t think he equated these two to Frank German.

[mvp 78]

It’s not about Renfroe, but the money being spent on JBJ when more money should have been spent on the rotation. If you can pay JBJ $10+M for the next two years you could have upgraded to someone better than Whacka for the rotation.

 

On who? They weren't linked to any of the top FA SP's.

[mvp 78]

Having to make another deal to fix losing Renfroe adds even more cost to the overall impact of this trade.

 

Unless they were planning on the other deal before trading JBJ (i.e. signing Suzuki).

[moonslav59]

What are the moves you'd make that would cause the JBJ trade to make more sense? Signing another OFer? Bringing in a better 2B?

 

Which in a way just adds to the cost of the JBJ trade.

[mvp 78]

I agree. It’s actually $12M AAVx2 years or $12M AAV for 1 year but an actual $17.5M cost for one year counting the buyout.

 

I know overlooking the long term aspect of signing a better SPer is a big part of any comparative analysis, but adding $12M to the cost of Wacha and of Hill and Paxton gets us a very nice starter.

 

Who? And were the Sox linked to that player before the JBJ trade?

[moonslav59]

Unless they were planning on the other deal before trading JBJ (i.e. signing Suzuki).

 

Exactly my point.

[moonslav59]

On who? They weren't linked to any of the top FA SP's.

 

ERod?

 

The money spent on JBJ adds a year on our offer for him, right?

 

The AVV argument is even more solid, if you don’t look long term.

 

Wacha + JBJ = ERod.

 

?

Edited December 30, 2021 by moonslav59

[mvp 78]

Which in a way just adds to the cost of the JBJ trade.

 

No.

[mvp 78]

ERod?

 

That happened long before the Sox signed JBJ. Sox felt they didn't like ERod's number and they moved on. It had nothing to do with JBJ.

[mvp 78]

Exactly my point.

 

Wrong.

 

If the Sox already wanted to sign Suzuki, they knew they could/should deal Renfroe.

[Kimmi]

I've already go a TRADE JBJ thread in my drafts, but at least give him some credit. One bad year isn't always a sign that the player will never be good again. Maybe the switch to the new league was a bigger adjustment than he thought it would be? Maybe he'll be more comfortable back in Fenway? I'm sure he's going to get a big pop on Opening Day from the fans.

 

JBJ will almost surely bounce back from his horrific offensive season, fueled by a .226 BABIP. He remains one of the best defensive OFers in MLB. I don't think Bloom intends for him to be an everyday OFer, but if he is, I'll be okay with that, assuming an offensive improvement to somewhere around career norms.

[Kimmi]

It's not about being giddy. It's about knowing the inherent value of having a bunch of guys in your system. Most won't pan out! However, you have a pipeline to keep payroll costs down. You have a pipeline because the players are fungible assets that you can deal at the deadline to bolster your MLB team.

 

It's almost like I typed this post myself.

[moonslav59]

Wrong.

 

If the Sox already wanted to sign Suzuki, they knew they could/should deal Renfroe.

 

Yes, but not for a back up OFer!

 

Sign Suzuki and trade Renfroe for a cheaper or equal salary pitcher, and we still have $5M in AAV to spend on 2B or the pen.

Edited December 30, 2021 by moonslav59

[moonslav59]

JBJ will almost surely bounce back from his horrific offensive season, fueled by a .226 BABIP. He remains one of the best defensive OFers in MLB. I don't think Bloom intends for him to be an everyday OFer, but if he is, I'll be okay with that, assuming an offensive improvement to somewhere around career norms.

 

Should we expect career norms at his age?

[Kimmi]

I’m surprised you gave him a D not an F-.

 

Come on Moon. Even if you don't like this move, you have to see some value in it.

[Kimmi]

So we trade our FT RFer who may be due for a decline to the point where he might be a zero WAR player making $7M for a part time OFer making $12M x 2 of $17.5m x 1 in hopes he bounced back.

 

To

Me, Bloom liked the prospects more than anyone I see on this site.

 

Based on what I've read, I like the prospects just fine.

[moonslav59]

Come on Moon. Even if you don't like this move, you have to see some value in it.

 

I’m not giving it a D- or F. I’m just surprised Red did not give him an F.

 

I have said over and over it’s about the prospects.

 

That is the value, plus an upgrade in D, which I have been screaming for.

 

To me, the money aspect turns this into a head scratcher. I don’t think this was a good deal, but it might be one.

[Kimmi]

Having to make another deal to fix losing Renfroe adds even more cost to the overall impact of this trade.

 

Perhaps, but keep in mind that we're not just talking about this upcoming season. Bloom always operates with the long term in mind. Maybe we have to add some more cost this year to replace the loss of value in Renfroe, but long term, we could very well end up saving.

 

The Sox are in the financial position where they could exceed the luxury tax limit this year, if needed, and be able to reset again within the next 3 years.

[moonslav59]

Based on what I've read, I like the prospects just fine.

 

I think at least one will be on theML roster by 2023.

[mvp 78]

JBJ will almost surely bounce back from his horrific offensive season, fueled by a .226 BABIP. He remains one of the best defensive OFers in MLB. I don't think Bloom intends for him to be an everyday OFer, but if he is, I'll be okay with that, assuming an offensive improvement to somewhere around career norms.

 

If he has a 700 OPS and is playing his typical solid CF, you can hide the bat in the 9 hole. It's more than I'd like to pay, but I think the overall value to the team is better than what we would have had with Renfroe because it also upgrades 2b by moving Kiké there.

[Kimmi]

Bloom likes prospects, because he has to. Do you think Bloom would act, or react the way he does if he had a bigger checkbook like Dombrowski did? Do you think he would be making a lot different kind of deals?

 

Bloom does not have to like prospects. He has the payroll to spend. He likes prospects because it's the smart way to build long term sustainability.

[mvp 78]

It's almost like I typed this post myself.

 

That's because you are a good poster.

[mvp 78]

Yes, but not for a back up OFer!

 

Sign Suzuki and trade Renfroe for a cheaper or equal salary pitcher, and we still have $5M in AAV to spend on 2B or the pen.

 

But why? Bloom clearly values JBJ's glove. He didn't make the move because he was bored.

[moonslav59]

Perhaps, but keep in mind that we're not just talking about this upcoming season. Bloom always operates with the long term in mind. Maybe we have to add some more cost this year to replace the loss of value in Renfroe, but long term, we could very well end up saving.

 

The Sox are in the financial position where they could exceed the luxury tax limit this year, if needed, and be able to reset again within the next 3 years.

 

JBJs option would have to be decline for his salary not to count towards 2023.

 

That’s an expensive buy out of $8M. That doesn’t count on the 2023 tax budget, but that’s more than any tax we might pay!

[mvp 78]

Should we expect career norms at his age?

 

The real decline starts at 35. He's not there yet.