The 2021-2022 Offseason Thread

[notin]

Stop

 

https://glosbe.com/en/en/partial%20negation

[moonslav59]

Stop

 

https://glosbe.com/en/en/partial%20negation

 

It’s obvious globse does not know how words work.

[mvp 78]

Stop

 

https://glosbe.com/en/en/partial%20negation

 

I'm going to have to doubt your source.

 

https://glosbe.com/en/en/positive%20regression

 

positive regression

Definition in the dictionary English

 

We have no definitions yet.

[mvp 78]

@alexspeier

As @JesseRogersESPN reported, former Red Sox ace Jon Lester is retiring after 16 seasons.

[moonslav59]

@alexspeier

As @JesseRogersESPN reported, former Red Sox ace Jon Lester is retiring after 16 seasons.

 

Many fond memories.

 

He was a battler and a gamer.

[sk7326]

Many fond memories.

 

He was a battler and a gamer.

 

I've been a Sox fan since 1986 ... pretty clearly Roger and Pedro are the two best pitchers the franchise has had in that interim. For 3rd place ... it's gotta be Lester, right? Beckett had that one marvelous season, but that was about it.

[mvp 78]

@alexspeier

Random Lester fact that he noted yesterday: He made a road appearance against 29 teams. The only place he never pitched as a visitor? Fenway - the one where he pitched more times (115) than in any other place in his career.

[mvp 78]

I've been a Sox fan since 1986 ... pretty clearly Roger and Pedro are the two best pitchers the franchise has had in that interim. For 3rd place ... it's gotta be Lester, right? Beckett had that one marvelous season, but that was about it.

 

Sale

[Old Red]

Many fond memories.

 

He was a battler and a gamer.

 

And the Sox stiffed him with a lowball contract offer.

[mvp 78]

And the Sox stiffed him with a lowball contract offer.

 

Yes, we need to have this discussion again.

[sk7326]

Sale

 

Length of service has to matter in terms of "best Sox" - though Sale is absolutely a better pitcher. For that matter, in 2007 so was Josh Beckett.

[Old Red]

Length of service has to matter in terms of "best Sox" - though Sale is absolutely a better pitcher. For that matter, in 2007 so was Josh Beckett.

 

No votes for Price who Lester was basically traded for at a much steeper price?

[moonslav59]

No votes for Price who Lester was basically traded for at a much steeper price?

 

In another way, one could say Lester was traded for Porcello.

 

We traded him and Gomes for Cespedes, who we later flipped for Porcello, who was later extended. Porcello was cheaper than Lester and was extended for only 4 years.

[moonslav59]

No votes for Price who Lester was basically traded for at a much steeper price?

 

Nope. Not as a Red Sox.

[Bellhorn04]

I've been a Sox fan since 1986 ... pretty clearly Roger and Pedro are the two best pitchers the franchise has had in that interim. For 3rd place ... it's gotta be Lester, right? Beckett had that one marvelous season, but that was about it.

 

Beckett best fWAR seasons with Red Sox:

 

2007 5.7

2008 4.3

2009 4.2

2011 3.8

 

One great season and 3 good to very good seasons, I guess.

[Old Red]

In another way, one could say Lester was traded for Porcello.

 

We traded him and Gomes for Cespedes, who we later flipped for Porcello, who was later extended. Porcello was cheaper than Lester and was extended for only 4 years.

 

This is all good, and true, but I don’t think Price would have been signed if Lester would have resigned.

[harmony]

Jon Lester and Tim Lincecum, his high school rival from the Seattle area, had their peak years in 2008 and 2009 when Lester posted 6.1 and 6.2 bWAR while Lincecum posted 7.8 and 7.4 bWAR.

 

Of course, Lester had the longer career, finishing with 44.3 bWAR to Lincecum's 19.9 bWAR.

[mvp 78]

fWAR as a BOS starter:

Lester 27.9

Beckett 20.4

Sale 18.2 (more years to come)

ERod 14.6

Buchholz 14.3

Price 10.6

 

3 best seasons fWAR:

Sale 17.4

Lester 14.6

Beckett 14.2

 

So the question is what the definition of "best" is. If it's most production overall, it would be Lester. If it's best peak production, it would be Sale.

[sk7326]

fWAR as a BOS starter:

Lester 27.9

Beckett 20.4

Sale 18.2 (more years to come)

ERod 14.6

Buchholz 14.3

Price 10.6

 

3 best seasons fWAR:

Sale 17.4

Lester 14.6

Beckett 14.2

 

So the question is what the definition of "best" is. If it's most production overall, it would be Lester. If it's best peak production, it would be Sale.

 

For now, I'd probably go production overall as a Red Sox - this is backwards looking after all. And his extremely central role in the 2013 title counts. (not that Sale is bad, but postseasonwise the resumes differ)

[S5Dewey]

The thing that irks me the most about the entire Jon Lester Red Sox career is that the Sox organization may have saved his life by making the very best cancer treatment available to him. I'm not saying that Lester should have jumped at the lowball offer the Sox gave him, I'm just saying that it pointed out what everyone knows: Not only is there no crying in baseball there's also no room for any emotion of any kind. It's all about the money, baby!

[mvp 78]

For now, I'd probably go production overall as a Red Sox - this is backwards looking after all. And his extremely central role in the 2013 title counts. (not that Sale is bad, but postseasonwise the resumes differ)

 

Post-Pedro:

Lester compiled the best career with BOS. Sale had the best peak.

 

Sounds fine to me. With 2 great seasons, Sale would leap past Lester.

[mvp 78]

The thing that irks me the most about the entire Jon Lester Red Sox career is that the Sox organization may have saved his life by making the very best cancer treatment available to him. I'm not saying that Lester should have jumped at the lowball offer the Sox gave him, I'm just saying that it pointed out what everyone knows: Not only is there no crying in baseball there's also no room for any emotion of any kind. It's all about the money, baby!

 

That doesn't irk me at all. They still massively underpaid him for his first 6 seasons. He deserved to get paid. He made more money for the Sox than he made off of them.

[Bellhorn04]

Lester had a great career. And 3 rings to show for it.

[moonslav59]

I do think the Sox low-ball offer was offensive, but since Lester had hinted he might take a hometown discount, I think he or his agent should/should have made a counter offer.

 

This issue has been beaten to death several times over and over again, but had the Sox offered what the reportedly ended up offering when he was a FA, I think he'd have grabbed it. (Maybe the Sox never wanted him to accept even that last FA offer.)

[moonslav59]

Best fWAR seasons since 2000 by a Sox pitcher (ranking overall MLB):

 

Over 4,500 pitchers had 100+ IP in a season since 2000.

 

4. Pedro 9.4 in 2000

15. Sale 7.6 in 2017

20. Pedro 7.4 in 2003

21. Pedro 7.4 in 2002

58. Schilling 6.5 in 2004

78. Sale 6.2 in 2018

115. Beckett 5.7 in 2007

122. Eovaldi 5.6 in 2021

131. Pedro 5.5 in 2001 (just 117 IP)

146. Lester 5.4 in 2014 (BOS & OAK)

149. Lester 5.4 2009

178. Porcello 5.1 in 2016

211. Pedro 4.9 in 2004

212. Lester 4.9 in 2010

260. Lowe 4.6 in 2002

275. Schilling 4.6 in 2006

316. Price 4.4 in 2016

339. Beckett 4.3 in 2008

353. Lester 4.3 in 2008

362. Beckett 4.2 in 2009

486. ERod 3.8 in 2021

497. Beckett 3.8 in 2011

 

Some observations:

 

Pedro has 3 of the best 4 seasons and 4 of the top 8.

Sale has 2 of the top 6.

5 pitchers are on this list just once: Lowe, Porcello, Price, Eovaldi & ERod

 

Seasons where 2 Sox pitchers made this list at the same time:

2002 (Pedro & Lowe)

2004 (Pedro & Schill)

2008 (Lester & Beckett)

2009 (Lester & Beckett)

2021 (Eovaldi & ERod)

 

 

 

Edited January 12, 2022 by moonslav59

[moonslav59]

1.3+ WAR Listed

 

2000: 9.4 Pedro, 2.4 Lowe, 1.8 Fassero. 1.3 Garces

2001: 5.5 Pedro, 3.0 Nomo. 2.2 Castillo, 1.6 Lowe, 1.4 Cone

2002: 7.4 Pedro, 4.6 Lowe, 2.7 Wake, 1.8 Burkett, 1.8 Fossum, 1.3 Urbina

2003: 7.4 Pedro, 3.6 Wake, 2.7 Burkett, 2.4 Lowe, 1.9 Kim

2004: 6.5 Schill, 4.9 Pedro, 3.3 Arroyo, 2.2 Lowe, 1.6 Foulke, 1.4 Wake

2005: 3.0 Wells, 2.5 Clement, 2.4 Arroyo, 1.8 Timlin. 1.8 Wake, 1.7 Schill

2006: 4.5 Schill, 3.1 Paplebon

2007: 5.7 Beckett, 2.9 Dice-K, 2.3 Schill, 2.1 Paplebon, 1.9 Wake

2008: 4.3 Beckett, 4.3 Lester, 2.8 Papelbon, 2.8 Dice-K

2009: 5.4 Lester, 4.2 Beckett, 1.9 Papelbon, 1.4 Penny

2010: 4.9 Lester, 3.3 Lackey, 3.0 Buch, 2.1 Dice-K, 1.3 D Bard

2011: 3.8 Beckett, 3.0 Papelbon, 2.6 Lester, 1.3 Bard

2012: 2.4 Lester, 1.4 Beckett

2013: 3.3 Lester, 3.1 Koji, 2.7 Buch, 2.5 Lackey, 2.3 Doubront

2014: 3.8 Lester, 2.0 Lackey, 1.3 Buch, 1.3 A Miller

2015: 3.3 Buchholz, 2.7 Miley, 1.5 ERod. 1.4 Koji

2016: 5.1 Porcello, 4.4 Price, 2.9 Wright

2017: 7.6 Sale, 3.2 Kimbrel, 3.0 Pomeranz, 2.0 Porcello, 2.0 ERod. 1.5 Price, 1.4 Fister

2018: 6.2 Sale, 2.4 Porcello, 2.4 Price, 2.1 ERod, 1.5 Eovaldi (54 IP), 1.3 Kimbrel

2019: 3.7 ERod, 3.6 Sale, 2.3 Price, 2.1 Workman, 1.8 Porcello, 1.3 Barnes

2020: 0.9 Eovaldi, 0.5 Brasier, 0.4 Houck (17 IP), 0.4 Perez, 0.3 Mazza

2021: 5.6 Eovaldi, 3.8 ERod, 2.2 Houck, 2.1 Pivetta, 1.6 Whitlock, 1.3 Barnes

 

[S5Dewey]

I do think the Sox low-ball offer was offensive, but since Lester had hinted he might take a hometown discount, I think he or his agent should/should have made a counter offer.

 

This ^ was more to my point. It seemed that Lester & the Sox had a relationship that transcended baseball, and yet when money entered the picture all communication broke down. Sad.

[harmony]

A year ago Thursday columnist Chad Jennings at The Athletic wrote about five free agents who could have filled a Red Sox need but signed elsewhere: reliever Liam Hendriks, infielder Ha-Seong Kim, lefthander Mike Minor, catcher James McCann and center fielder Michael Taylor:

 

https://theathletic.com/2319123/2021/01/13/red-sox-mlb-free-agency/

 

Subscription required.

 

Would any of those players made in difference in light of the players each would replace on the 2021 Red Sox roster?

 

Jennings offered his retrospective on Wednesday:

 

https://theathletic.com/3062234/2022/01/12/running-to-stand-still-ever-changing-red-sox-still-stand-on-familiar-ground/

[mvp 78]

A year ago Thursday columnist Chad Jennings at The Athletic wrote about five free agents who could have filled a Red Sox need but signed elsewhere: reliever Liam Hendriks, infielder Ha-Seong Kim, lefthander Mike Minor, catcher James McCann and center fielder Michael Taylor:

 

https://theathletic.com/2319123/2021/01/13/red-sox-mlb-free-agency/

 

Subscription required.

 

Would any of those players made in difference in light of the players each would replace on the 2021 Red Sox roster?

 

Jennings offered his retrospective on Wednesday:

 

https://theathletic.com/3062234/2022/01/12/running-to-stand-still-ever-changing-red-sox-still-stand-on-familiar-ground/

 

Yeah, they should have signed Hendriks. That would have been good. Does that help them beat the Astros? IDK.

[moonslav59]

A year ago Thursday columnist Chad Jennings at The Athletic wrote about five free agents who could have filled a Red Sox need but signed elsewhere: reliever Liam Hendriks, infielder Ha-Seong Kim, lefthander Mike Minor, catcher James McCann and center fielder Michael Taylor:

 

https://theathletic.com/2319123/2021/01/13/red-sox-mlb-free-agency/

 

Subscription required.

 

Would any of those players made in difference in light of the players each would replace on the 2021 Red Sox roster?

 

Jennings offered his retrospective on Wednesday:

 

https://theathletic.com/3062234/2022/01/12/running-to-stand-still-ever-changing-red-sox-still-stand-on-familiar-ground/

 

So many of the better FA RP'ers in last winter's market flopped, got hurt or did worse than many team's who signed them hoped they'd do.

 

It's such a crapshoot.

 

Hendriks was one of the better options, but look at others...

 

$54M/3 Hendriks

$11M/1 T Rosenthal

$11M/1 B Hand

$18M/2 Treinen

$16M/2 T May

$13M/2 P Baez

$6M/1 Colome, Bradley & Yates

$7M/2 K Giles