Rays at Red Sox 1:10 PM

[oldtimer]

This is on our defense and is not even close. 4 errors? You just can’t win games performing like this. 10 runs won’t be enough.

 

IMO this defense disaster is because we are shuffling defense positions game after game since the season started, and several players have been taxed like Verdugo today. He is not a CF and has played there just few games. Sure, right now out there were not other options but that’s the example of what has been happening this season. Let players play where they are at best. Stop the D experiments for once and for all, once everybody is healthy.

 

This D has cost us a lot of games in the season. It is brutal.

 

It's frustrating to watch. I believe you are correct. Too many changes in positions. These have been forced by our incredible Covid and Injury numbers.

[dgalehouse]

Crazy game today. Just have to file it and forget it. Move on.

[jad]

Now that the SOX have Iggy, does that mean they can trade Bogey for some much needed pitching next season. And good pitching would be more benefitted with Iggy at SS than having Bogey there.

 

So you would replace one of the best players on the team w/ a guy released by the Angels?

[Tedballgame]

You could be right. It was worth 3 runs right there.

 

4 runs scored on the play.

[a700hitter]

This is on our defense and is not even close. 4 errors? You just can’t win games performing like this. 10 runs won’t be enough.

 

IMO this defense disaster is because we are shuffling defense positions game after game since the season started, and several players have been taxed like Verdugo today. He is not a CF and has played there just few games. Sure, right now out there were not other options but that’s the example of what has been happening this season. Let players play where they are at best. Stop the D experiments for once and for all, once everybody is healthy.

 

This D has cost us a lot of games in the season. It is brutal.

It is not a competitive defense.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

So you would replace one of the best players on the team w/ a guy released by the Angels?

 

No, I would trade a very good offensive player to get some pitching.

[moonslav59]

This is on our defense and is not even close. 4 errors? You just can’t win games performing like this. 10 runs won’t be enough.

 

IMO this defense disaster is because we are shuffling defense positions game after game since the season started, and several players have been taxed like Verdugo today. He is not a CF and has played there just few games. Sure, right now out there were not other options but that’s the example of what has been happening this season. Let players play where they are at best. Stop the D experiments for once and for all, once everybody is healthy.

 

This D has cost us a lot of games in the season. It is brutal.

 

It was much worse than just the 4 errors, and I keep harping on the same point.

 

The plays that are not called errors, that are made by most or a good chunk of teams everyday, are listed as singles, doubles or triples in the scorecard.

 

There is no way this is the worst Sox game in history, but it sure felt like it.

 

The word "sick" does not come close to giving justice to what that game was.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Dugo today lost the ball in the sun. We've seen it happen to even the best outfielders. That it happened with the bases loaded was unfortunate, but shite happens. No reason to condemn a player who plays hard everyday and has made some very good defensive plays during the season.

And why the bases were loaded to begin with, well that's another story for another day.

[moonslav59]

Dugo today lost the ball in the sun. We've seen it happen to even the best outfielders. That it happened with the bases loaded was unfortunate, but shite happens. No reason to condemn a player who plays hard everyday and has made some very good defensive plays during the season.

And why the bases were loaded to begin with, well that's another story for another day.

 

There were too many mistakes to list.

 

Many not even called errors.

 

It was just plain sick!

[a700hitter]

This game was a defensive blooper reel for the Red Sox.

[moonslav59]

This game was a defensive blooper reel for the Red Sox.

 

...and week and month and much of the season.

[Bellhorn04]

COVID outbreak is officially costing us games. No Pivetta = Kutter Crawford. No Kike = Verdugo in CF.

[moonslav59]

3 swinging bunts off Sale than the catastrophe in CF. That was just the start of the floodgates opening up.

 

I'm not sure I have ever seen a game like that.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

COVID outbreak is officially costing us games. No Pivetta = Kutter Crawford. No Kike = Verdugo in CF.

 

I tried to explain to my son that we're rooting for the laundry this month, but he still ripped his Verdugo baseball card into pieces.

[a700hitter]

I don’t miss many games, but I am glad I missed this one. I saw the keystone cop imitation on Sox in 2.

[Bellhorn04]

I don’t miss many games, but I am glad I missed this one. I saw the keystone cop imitation on Sox in 2.

 

Our version is the Kenmore Cops.

[notin]

So you would replace one of the best players on the team w/ a guy released by the Angels?

 

There is probably also the matter of who Bogaerts can get in a trade.

 

I imagine the Sox will explore trades for him this off-season, since he is very likely to opt out after 2022 anyway...

[Maxbialystock]

Dugo today lost the ball in the sun. We've seen it happen to even the best outfielders. That it happened with the bases loaded was unfortunate, but shite happens. No reason to condemn a player who plays hard everyday and has made some very good defensive plays during the season.

And why the bases were loaded to begin with, well that's another story for another day.

 

Wow. Gutsy call. You are absolutely right about the sun and also about the fact that everyone--and I mean everyone (but me) on talksox--has ignored the fact that our ace gave up 10 hits in 3.2 innings.

 

While I do agree with moonslav and others that the defense stinks, I would ask our resident experts to name a Sox team in the John Henry era that can rightfully be said to have won the WS with great defense. The Sox win with hitting and, when they can beg, borrow, or steal it, pitching.

 

Indeed, my favorite example of how unimportant the Sox FO considers defense to be was the 2013 season when they dumped Iglesias, a brilliant shortstop, to acquire Jake Peavy, a middling starter who nevertheless was more valuable than Iglesias, who went to the Tigers who lost to the Sox in the ALCS. With Peavy and without Iglesias, the Sox won their 3d WS in the JH era.

 

Or consider maybe the best Sox team ever, 2018. Here are some of the DWAR's for that team: Nunez -1.5, JDM -1.4, Bogey -1.0, Devers -.9, Benintendi (yes, the same guy who got "catch of the year" for that play in in Houston) -.6, Moreland -.5, Pearce -.4, Travis -.3, Holt -.1. That Betts +1.8 and JBJ +.9 were excellent in RF and CF no doubt causes us to think that was a really good defensive team, which it was not. That team with its so-so defense won 108 regular season games, beat the Yankees 3-1, the Astros 4-1, and the Dodgers 4-1 to win the 4th WS in the JH era.

 

I am not advocating lousy defense and do appreciate moonslav's points, but have to think it's a little late in the JH era to suddenly decide the Sox need good defense to win. Indeed, this throw-together team which none--repeat, none--of us expected to go anywhere this season, is still very much in the hunt for the postseason despite being hit hard by the pandemic.

 

Also, FWIW, I too like the Rays defense, which looks pretty solid. But guess what? The Rays lead MLB in runs scored!!! Yesterday--and this is going to come as a shock to everyone on this thread--they got 19 hits, and not all of them were because some Sox player didn't quite make the play another, better defender might have made.

Edited September 7, 2021 by Maxbialystock

[mvp 78]

I don’t miss many games, but I am glad I missed this one. I saw the keystone cop imitation on Sox in 2.

 

I didn't turn it on until the 7th.

[mvp 78]

The sun does not set behind homeplate. If he lost the ball in the sun, he was looking in the wrong direction.

[TylerD]

Wow. Gutsy call. You are absolutely right about the sun and also about the fact that everyone--and I mean everyone (but me) on talksox--has ignored the fact that our ace gave up 10 hits in 3.2 innings.

 

While I do agree with moonslav and others that the defense stinks, I would ask our resident experts to name a Sox team in the John Henry era that can rightfully be said to have won the WS with great defense. The Sox win with hitting and, when they can beg, borrow, or steal it, pitching.

 

Indeed, my favorite example of how unimportant the Sox FO considers defense to be was the 2013 season when they dumped Iglesias, a brilliant shortstop, to acquire Jake Peavy, a middling starter who nevertheless was more valuable than Iglesias, who went to the Tigers who lost to the Sox in the ALCS. With Peavy and without Iglesias, the Sox won their 3d WS in the JH era.

 

Or consider maybe the best Sox team ever, 2018. Here are some of the DWAR's for that team: Nunez -1.5, JDM -1.4, Bogey -1.0, Devers -.9, Benintendi (yes, the same guy who got "catch of the year" for that play in in Houston) -.6, Moreland -.5, Pearce -.4, Travis -.3, Holt -.1. That Betts +1.8 and JBJ +.9 were excellent in RF and CF no doubt causes us to think that was a really good defensive team, which it was not. That team with its so-so defense won 108 regular season games, beat the Yankees 3-1, the Astros 4-1, and the Dodgers 4-1 to win the 4th WS in the JH era.

 

I am not advocating lousy defense and do appreciate moonslav's points, but have to think it's a little late in the JH era to suddenly decide the Sox need good defense to win. Indeed, this throw-together team which none--repeat, none--of us expected to go anywhere this season, is still very much in the hunt for the postseason despite being hit hard by the pandemic.

 

Also, FWIW, I too like the Rays defense, which looks pretty solid. But guess what? The Rays lead MLB in runs scored!!! Yesterday--and this is going to come as a shock to everyone on this thread--they got 19 hits, and not all of them were because some Sox player didn't quite make the play another, better defender might have made.

 

Nobody is ignoring that at all...... I think everyone here recognizes that Sale did not have his best game HOWEVER with that said, If Verdugo makes that catch Sale goes 4 innings with just one earned run..... Not a bad day at all considering that wasn't his best game. It went from a decent day to absolutely horrible from just that one play...... I understand the sun was in his eyes, and that makes it very hard to make that play.

 

Overall it was just a bad day outside of the bats.... Generally if you put up 10 on the board, you should win especially with your ace. If Verdugo made that catch, this is a win.

 

Time to move on, and hope to hell we win today. Jays are red hot right now, and might catch us if we drop this series and the next.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Wow. Gutsy call. You are absolutely right about the sun and also about the fact that everyone--and I mean everyone (but me) on talksox--has ignored the fact that our ace gave up 10 hits in 3.2 innings.

 

While I do agree with moonslav and others that the defense stinks, I would ask our resident experts to name a Sox team in the John Henry era that can rightfully be said to have won the WS with great defense. The Sox win with hitting and, when they can beg, borrow, or steal it, pitching.

 

Indeed, my favorite example of how unimportant the Sox FO considers defense to be was the 2013 season when they dumped Iglesias, a brilliant shortstop, to acquire Jake Peavy, a middling starter who nevertheless was more valuable than Iglesias, who went to the Tigers who lost to the Sox in the ALCS. With Peavy and without Iglesias, the Sox won their 3d WS in the JH era.

 

Or consider maybe the best Sox team ever, 2018. Here are some of the DWAR's for that team: Nunez -1.5, JDM -1.4, Bogey -1.0, Devers -.9, Benintendi (yes, the same guy who got "catch of the year" for that play in in Houston) -.6, Moreland -.5, Pearce -.4, Travis -.3, Holt -.1. That Betts +1.8 and JBJ +.9 were excellent in RF and CF no doubt causes us to think that was a really good defensive team, which it was not. That team with its so-so defense won 108 regular season games, beat the Yankees 3-1, the Astros 4-1, and the Dodgers 4-1 to win the 4th WS in the JH era.

 

I am not advocating lousy defense and do appreciate moonslav's points, but have to think it's a little late in the JH era to suddenly decide the Sox need good defense to win. Indeed, this throw-together team which none--repeat, none--of us expected to go anywhere this season, is still very much in the hunt for the postseason despite being hit hard by the pandemic.

 

Also, FWIW, I too like the Rays defense, which looks pretty solid. But guess what? The Rays lead MLB in runs scored!!! Yesterday--and this is going to come as a shock to everyone on this thread--they got 19 hits, and not all of them were because some Sox player didn't quite make the play another, better defender might have made.

 

That 2018 Red Sox team was a good if not excellent defensive team. The staff was loaded with fly ball pitchers, and that outfield -- strictly on D -- was the best I've ever seen... and I lived through the 1970s and loved Rice-Lynn-Evans. When Yaz played left, the unit was the best in the league with the gloves, but JBJ > Lynn, Betts > Evans, and 2016-2018 Benintendi was a better fielder than Rice (bb-ref has Beni as a positive DWAR in '18). Moreland, Kinsler and Leon were all above-average with the leather when they were in there.

[Maxbialystock]

The sun does not set behind homeplate. If he lost the ball in the sun, he was looking in the wrong direction.

 

Ball was hit to Verdugo's left, which is where the sun was setting.

[mvp 78]

Ball was hit to Verdugo's left, which is where the sun was setting.

 

No. Look where the shadows are in CF when he misses the ball. You can't blame the sun on that one. He just tried to make a spectacular play, but failed.

[moonslav59]

Wow. Gutsy call. You are absolutely right about the sun and also about the fact that everyone--and I mean everyone (but me) on talksox--has ignored the fact that our ace gave up 10 hits in 3.2 innings.

 

While I do agree with moonslav and others that the defense stinks, I would ask our resident experts to name a Sox team in the John Henry era that can rightfully be said to have won the WS with great defense. The Sox win with hitting and, when they can beg, borrow, or steal it, pitching.

 

Indeed, my favorite example of how unimportant the Sox FO considers defense to be was the 2013 season when they dumped Iglesias, a brilliant shortstop, to acquire Jake Peavy, a middling starter who nevertheless was more valuable than Iglesias, who went to the Tigers who lost to the Sox in the ALCS. With Peavy and without Iglesias, the Sox won their 3d WS in the JH era.

 

Or consider maybe the best Sox team ever, 2018. Here are some of the DWAR's for that team: Nunez -1.5, JDM -1.4, Bogey -1.0, Devers -.9, Benintendi (yes, the same guy who got "catch of the year" for that play in in Houston) -.6, Moreland -.5, Pearce -.4, Travis -.3, Holt -.1. That Betts +1.8 and JBJ +.9 were excellent in RF and CF no doubt causes us to think that was a really good defensive team, which it was not. That team with its so-so defense won 108 regular season games, beat the Yankees 3-1, the Astros 4-1, and the Dodgers 4-1 to win the 4th WS in the JH era.

 

I am not advocating lousy defense and do appreciate moonslav's points, but have to think it's a little late in the JH era to suddenly decide the Sox need good defense to win. Indeed, this throw-together team which none--repeat, none--of us expected to go anywhere this season, is still very much in the hunt for the postseason despite being hit hard by the pandemic.

 

Also, FWIW, I too like the Rays defense, which looks pretty solid. But guess what? The Rays lead MLB in runs scored!!! Yesterday--and this is going to come as a shock to everyone on this thread--they got 19 hits, and not all of them were because some Sox player didn't quite make the play another, better defender might have made.

 

A lot to cover here.

 

First of all, did you see some of those "hits" off Sale. I wouldn't say he was lit up.

 

Second, this isn't about "suddenly needing defense," this is about losing game after game because of our crappy defense.

 

No, you don't need great D to win WS, but all of our winning seasons had better D than this, some much better. You can have the greatest pitchers in the world, but asking them to get 4, 5 or 6 outs in an inning, several times a game is not going to work out well. Do you really think the 2018 team defense was anywhere near as bad as these guys have been, especially the last 2-3 weeks? (Hint: it's not close.)

 

Newsflash, we'd lead the league ins coring, right now, if we played against defenses like ours.

 

I have never said Defense is the most important aspect of baseball. You know we both agree it's pitching, but how you improve a team usually involves upgrading your weakest areas, and to me, our weakest is defense and the pen.

 

Our defense is helping our pen and starters look worse than they really are, but I'm not taking the pitchers off the hook by saying that.

[moonslav59]

Nobody is ignoring that at all...... I think everyone here recognizes that Sale did not have his best game HOWEVER with that said, If Verdugo makes that catch Sale goes 4 innings with just one earned run..... Not a bad day at all considering that wasn't his best game. It went from a decent day to absolutely horrible from just that one play...... I understand the sun was in his eyes, and that makes it very hard to make that play.

 

Overall it was just a bad day outside of the bats.... Generally if you put up 10 on the board, you should win especially with your ace. If Verdugo made that catch, this is a win.

 

It wasn't just the 2 missed catches; it's what happened after them that contributed to extra runs.

 

As for Sale, while it was true he did not have his best stuff, and hits are hits. All pitchers face cheezy hits, at times, but yesterday was whacked out.

 

Here is a look at each hit Sale allowed:

 

1st (one run allowed)

3B to deep CF

1B ground ball up the middle

1B dribbler down 3B line

1B dribbler down 3B line

 

2nd (no runs)

no hits

 

3rd (no runs)

1B line drive to LF

BB

 

4th (4 runs score- I hesitate to say allowed)

2 outs, then...

1B dribbler down 3B line

1B line drive RF

1B line drive RF

RE (third out!) Deep Fly ball to CF/RF for 4 runs!

1B infield hit to 3B

1B dribbler Infield hit to 3B

Sale removed.

 

Yes: 10 hits but at least 6 were weak and 1 deep one might have been caught.

 

Yes: 5 runs allowed, but only 1 was earned and hardly that.

 

Sale should not be taken off the hook, but anyone who watched all those 10 hits knows the truth.

[TylerD]

It wasn't just the 2 missed catches; it's what happened after them that contributed to extra runs.

 

As for Sale, while it was true he did not have his best stuff, and hits are hits. All pitchers face cheezy hits, at times, but yesterday was whacked out.

 

Here is a look at each hit Sale allowed:

 

1st (one run allowed)

3B to deep CF

1B ground ball up the middle

1B dribbler down 3B line

1B dribbler down 3B line

 

2nd (no runs)

no hits

 

3rd (no runs)

1B line drive to LF

BB

 

4th (4 runs score- I hesitate to say allowed)

2 outs, then...

1B dribbler down 3B line

1B line drive RF

1B line drive RF

RE (third out!) Deep Fly ball to CF/RF for 4 runs!

1B infield hit to 3B

1B dribbler Infield hit to 3B

Sale removed.

 

Yes: 10 hits but at least 6 were weak and 1 deep one might have been caught.

 

Yes: 5 runs allowed, but only 1 was earned and hardly that.

 

Sale should not be taken off the hook, but anyone who watched all those 10 hits knows the truth.

 

I completely agree, Sale had a weird day and bad luck on his side.... and the defense definitely didn't help..... Regardless, Sal has been pretty damn good since returning.... Every single ace faces a bad game here and there, but Sale still had some nice stuff and was one catch away from giving us 4 innings with just one earned run. The defense didn't help him what so ever, and then the bullpen just s*** all over themselves completely. Chalk it up to "one of those games" and move on.

 

E Rod is going today who has been spectacular his last 6 starts. No reason we can't win tonight and put last night behind us.....

[Maxbialystock]

A lot to cover here.

 

First of all, did you see some of those "hits" off Sale. I wouldn't say he was lit up.

 

Second, this isn't about "suddenly needing defense," this is about losing game after game because of our crappy defense.

 

No, you don't need great D to win WS, but all of our winning seasons had better D than this, some much better. You can have the greatest pitchers in the world, but asking them to get 4, 5 or 6 outs in an inning, several times a game is not going to work out well. Do you really think the 2018 team defense was anywhere near as bad as these guys have been, especially the last 2-3 weeks? (Hint: it's not close.)

 

Newsflash, we'd lead the league ins coring, right now, if we played against defenses like ours.

 

I have never said Defense is the most important aspect of baseball. You know we both agree it's pitching, but how you improve a team usually involves upgrading your weakest areas, and to me, our weakest is defense and the pen.

 

Our defense is helping our pen and starters look worse than they really are, but I'm not taking the pitchers off the hook by saying that.

 

I've already said--repeatedly--that the defense is lousy-but offer some sniveling excuses. For starters, injuries, including covid, have definitely affected this team's D. You have pointed out that Kike in CF makes a big difference, but he has played a lot of 2b because Arroyo has been on the IL a bunch. Verdugo, Kike, and Renfroe is probably an average outfield and definitely better than what we've seen in 80% of the games this year.

 

The left side of the infield, Devers and Bogey, is the same one that helped win 108 games and the WS 3 years ago. And Arroyo would have been good enough at 2b but for his extended IL time. That leaves 1b, which has been a bit of a mess, but I would argue the Sox have routinely not put great fielders at 1b--Youk was the exception--because their first priority was hitting. Thus the acquisition of Schwarber who--wait for it--has been a leftfielder but has a pretty good bat.

 

But my most important sniveling excuse isn't. Once again may I remind you that this team--with its good, bad, or indifferent defense game in and game out--has vastly outperformed what we expected before the season started. Indeed, and despite a slew of guys now on the IL/covid list, the Sox are still very much in the wild card hunt.

[moonslav59]

I've already said--repeatedly--that the defense is lousy-but offer some sniveling excuses. For starters, injuries, including covid, have definitely affected this team's D. You have pointed out that Kike in CF makes a big difference, but he has played a lot of 2b because Arroyo has been on the IL a bunch. Verdugo, Kike, and Renfroe is probably an average outfield and definitely better than what we've seen in 80% of the games this year.

 

The left side of the infield, Devers and Bogey, is the same one that helped win 108 games and the WS 3 years ago. And Arroyo would have been good enough at 2b but for his extended IL time. That leaves 1b, which has been a bit of a mess, but I would argue the Sox have routinely not put great fielders at 1b--Youk was the exception--because their first priority was hitting. Thus the acquisition of Schwarber who--wait for it--has been a leftfielder but has a pretty good bat.

 

But my most important sniveling excuse isn't. Once again may I remind you that this team--with its good, bad, or indifferent defense game in and game out--has vastly outperformed what we expected before the season started. Indeed, and despite a slew of guys now on the IL/covid list, the Sox are still very much in the wild card hunt.

 

I don't disagree, but our defense sucks way worse than I've ever seen any team play in my lifetime.

 

It's not even close.

 

It doesn't take the pitching or hitting off the hook, but the D has lost plenty of games we could/should have won.

 

Yes, we have over performed our expectations, but that is no sniveling excuse for the D to play like this.

 

(See how I twisted that 180?)

 

[mvp 78]

I've already said--repeatedly--that the defense is lousy-but offer some sniveling excuses. For starters, injuries, including covid, have definitely affected this team's D. You have pointed out that Kike in CF makes a big difference, but he has played a lot of 2b because Arroyo has been on the IL a bunch. Verdugo, Kike, and Renfroe is probably an average outfield and definitely better than what we've seen in 80% of the games this year.

 

The left side of the infield, Devers and Bogey, is the same one that helped win 108 games and the WS 3 years ago. And Arroyo would have been good enough at 2b but for his extended IL time. That leaves 1b, which has been a bit of a mess, but I would argue the Sox have routinely not put great fielders at 1b--Youk was the exception--because their first priority was hitting. Thus the acquisition of Schwarber who--wait for it--has been a leftfielder but has a pretty good bat.

 

But my most important sniveling excuse isn't. Once again may I remind you that this team--with its good, bad, or indifferent defense game in and game out--has vastly outperformed what we expected before the season started. Indeed, and despite a slew of guys now on the IL/covid list, the Sox are still very much in the wild card hunt.

 

According to defensive metrics like UZR/150 and DRS, Dalbec is the worst fulltime BOS 1B in the past 25 years. Worse than Napoli, Millar and Hanley.

 

Mitch Moreland is considered a good 1B. AGon was a very good 1B. Youk was a very good 1B.