trade deadline

[mvp 78]

In four years with the Sox , Price went 46-24. He was paid a boatload of money. In five years with the Sox , Sale has gone 40-24. He was , and is, being paid a boatload of money . He also cost Moncada and Kopech. Now , I know that wins and losses can be deceiving . And by no means am I saying that Price is as good a pitcher as Sale. But how is one contract that much better than the other ?

 

You see, if you like the player then the contract is worth it. If you don't like the player, the contract is never worth it.

[dgalehouse]

You see, if you like the player then the contract is worth it. If you don't like the player, the contract is never worth it.

 

Yup. That is pretty much what I was suggesting.

[mvp 78]

Yup. That is pretty much what I was suggesting.

 

And it's exactly why some people continue to complain about Price's contract years later.

[moonslav59]

You see, if you like the player then the contract is worth it. If you don't like the player, the contract is never worth it.

 

I actually liked Price. I knew we paid too much, but at the time I said something like, "He is the kind of pitcher you wait years for." I liked his competitive nature. He always seemed to pitch well versus us.

 

I don't think he had any attitude issues or work ethic issues, so it didn't really bother me all that much, when he went out hurt or underperformed my own expectations, which I admit were high. But as I said, I thought we overpaid to begin with and was for the signings, so I was okay with it.

 

I liked him but still think he did not earn that amount of money. We basically paid him $38M x 4 years.

 

Papi made a third of that most of his ring years, here.

[Bellhorn04]

I actually liked Price. I knew we paid too much, but at the time I said something like, "He is the kind of pitcher you wait years for." I liked his competitive nature. He always seemed to pitch well versus us.

 

I don't think he had any attitude issues or work ethic issues, so it didn't really bother me all that much, when he went out hurt or underperformed my own expectations, which I admit were high. But as I said, I thought we overpaid to begin with and was for the signings, so I was okay with it.

 

I liked him but still think he did not earn that amount of money. We basically paid him $38M x 4 years.

 

Papi made a third of that most of his ring years, here.

 

They overpaid for Price because they had such a desperate need for a #1 starter at the time.

[Bellhorn04]

Papi made a third of that most of his ring years, here.

 

Bad comparison.

 

If you said Papi made half as much as Price did in 2016, Papi's last year and Price's first with us, that would be a fair comparison.

[moonslav59]

They overpaid for Price because they had such a desperate need for a #1 starter at the time.

 

Yes, and as much as I knew it was an overpay, I still felt it had to be done, AND if it had to be done, Price was the type of guy you get.

[Kimmi]

I like what both of them have done for the franchise, Dave and Bloom that is.

 

But maybe the real genius is Henry? You can't draw it up any better than replacing Dave with Bloom at that point in time.

 

IMO, Dave should have never been hired. Ben should have been left alone to finish what he started.

 

That said, had Dave not been hired, we might currently not have Bloom.

[Bellhorn04]

IMO, Dave should have never been hired. Ben should have been left alone to finish what he started.

 

That said, had Dave not been hired, we might currently not have Bloom.

 

It has all worked out remarkably well considering the number of changes.

[Kimmi]

I've been saying I think we will go large, this winter or next, but maybe it will not be like the Price deal. I see a few other scenarios:

 

1) A deal like Scherzer, Greinke or Verlander for large and short.

2) Two $15-20M deals for 3-5 years.

3) Four $10M deals- hopefully better than the Richards' deal.

4) Some sort of mix and match.

 

I can't see him continually signing 10 guys to between $3 and $10M, every year. For one, we don't have enough roster slots for him to do that even one more year (this winter). With a bigger budget, he's almost forced to step out of his previous philosophy.

 

One can look at his 3 biggest deals, last winter, he swung and missed twice (Richards & Perez). He hit big with Kike. If you count Ottavino's trade as a big deal, he was 1 for 4.

 

Out of his next biggest deals, he went 1 for 3, again. Renfroe- hit, Andriese- miss, Marwin

 

The next 2? Sawamura- OK and Santana- miss.

 

One could argue, he shouldn't focus on FA signings, but I guess the Beni trade is not viewed as a winner, yet.

 

Getting Pivetta, last summer, Whitlock with Rule 5, Schwarber and others mid season and the Kike-Renfroe signings were big keys, but there were a lot of misses alog the way, too.

 

I think he'll eventually sign a player to a big contract, but I'm not talking Mookie Betts territory. Maybe 6 or 7 years for a position player. That said, I'd be perfectly happy if he continued to sign the Kike's and the Renfroe's of the world. Those are my kind of moves.

[Kimmi]

Overall, DD did a very good job. If the owner's didn't tighten up the purse strings, he'd be seen in a more favorable light.

 

Yikes.

 

Thank goodness the owners did tighten up the purse strings.

[Kimmi]

Yeah, it was a fun narrative for some folks to say he left us with nothing but scorched earth.

 

Not a scorched team, but a scorched farm and a scorched budget.

[Kimmi]

One year of Bloom and we no longer had to mortgage our future. I think that says that DD left the org with a ton of pieces.

 

???

[Bellhorn04]

Not a scorched team, but a scorched farm and a scorched budget.

 

Yet here we are. Bloom has done a great job, but things weren't in terrible shape.

[Nick]

Not a big fan of generalization...What the f*** is 'boatload of money"?

 

Chris Sale

2017 $12.0M

2018 $12.5M

2019 $15.0M

 

David Price

2016 $30.0M

2017 $30.0M

2018 $30.0M

2019 $31.0M

 

If David Price was paid a boatload of money, then Chris Sale was not. For Sale, Sox inherited team friendly contract from White Sox. One can argue the extension so far has not worked well for Red Sox but the original contract assumed was team friendly.

 

Giving up Kopech and Moncarda are another issue.....since they were only making league minimum, not sure we were paying boatload of money to Chris Sale. White Sox may still come ahead on the deal.

 

Get your numbers straight.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Nick

[Kimmi]

Yet here we are. Bloom has done a great job, but things weren't in terrible shape.

 

I disagree.

[Bellhorn04]

I disagree.

 

I know.

[Bellhorn04]

If we must re-litigate Dave, I will offer a couple of key points that tend to get overlooked.

 

1) The payroll problems that the team had going into 2020 were not a personal creation of Dave's by any means. They were the end product of a series of transactions that started during Ben's time. I'd be happy to go through that point any time.

 

2) Dave hired Cora, for which he should get major, major points as far as what he left behind.

[moonslav59]

IMO, Dave should have never been hired. Ben should have been left alone to finish what he started.

 

That said, had Dave not been hired, we might currently not have Bloom.

 

I thought Ben had put together a longer term plan and the rug was pulled out before he had a chance to put it all together.

 

I understand why they did it. 2 last place finishes in 4 years with a big budget just doesn't cut it.

 

They tied his hands with Valentine and maybe some other stuff, but I don't blame Henry at all for hiring DD.

[moonslav59]

I think he'll eventually sign a player to a big contract, but I'm not talking Mookie Betts territory. Maybe 6 or 7 years for a position player. That said, I'd be perfectly happy if he continued to sign the Kike's and the Renfroe's of the world. Those are my kind of moves.

 

I'm extremely happy with Bloom, despite a bunch of misses. He's find a lot of gems through trial and error.

 

Now that the roster is deeper and stronger, he doesn't have the liberty to sign 6-10 players, in hopes 3-4 do well. We only will have about 4-5 roster slots, this winter. I hope he does better with his $10M+ deals (Richards) and the Perez deal ($6M). Kike was a great deal at $7M x 2, but he's basically 1 for 3 on deals over $6M.

[moonslav59]

Not a big fan of generalization...What the f*** is 'boatload of money"?

 

Chris Sale

2017 $12.0M

2018 $12.5M

2019 $15.0M

 

David Price

2016 $30.0M

2017 $30.0M

2018 $30.0M

2019 $31.0M

 

If David Price was paid a boatload of money, then Chris Sale was not. For Sale, Sox inherited team friendly contract from White Sox. One can argue the extension so far has not worked well for Red Sox but the original contract assumed was team friendly.

 

Giving up Kopech and Moncarda are another issue.....since they were only making league minimum, not sure we were paying boatload of money to Chris Sale. White Sox may still come ahead on the deal.

 

Get your numbers straight.

 

We ended up paying Price $151M/4.

[moonslav59]

If we must re-litigate Dave, I will offer a couple of key points that tend to get overlooked.

 

1) The payroll problems that the team had going into 2020 were not a personal creation of Dave's by any means. They were the end product of a series of transactions that started during Ben's time. I'd be happy to go through that point any time.

 

2) Dave hired Cora, for which he should get major, major points as far as what he left behind.

 

Dave also drafted very well for having such bad tricks, and his IFA signings were restricted by penalties incurred during Ben's tenure.

 

I will say, much of the big budget issues we faced the past 2 years and are facing us, today are DD'd choices.

[Bellhorn04]

I will say, much of the big budget issues we faced the past 2 years and are facing us, today are DD'd choices.

 

No, they weren't. The only guy he clearly overpaid in dollar bills was Price. And we've agreed that was a necessary signing.

[moonslav59]

No, they weren't. The only guy he clearly overpaid in dollar bills was Price. And we've agreed that was a necessary signing.

 

I didn't say I was against the signing, but his contract hurt us a lot and still is.

 

Porcello did well for us, mostly in one year, but he hurt near the end.

 

I do admit, the big spending part is overblown, in terms of what he left Bloom.

 

The emptying the farm was overblown, too, but not entirely untrue.

 

Many of the farmhands he traded have not done well, and the ones he kept have done better. He also drafted well for such bad picks.

 

I'm glad Henry hired DD, but I still had wished Ben was given one more year.

 

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

No, they weren't. The only guy he clearly overpaid in dollar bills was Price. And we've agreed that was a necessary signing.

 

DD signed JD for half of what his agent wanted, Bogie to a team-friendly deal, Eovaldi at market value for a near-top of the rotation starter, and Pearce for what amounted to a $6 mil bonus for winning World Series MVP (budget damage was similar to the $8 mil that kicked in for Schilling for his final season he sat out injured). He also let Kimbrel walk -- who was then paid, instead, by ex-Red Sox front office boy wonders in the NL.

 

Besides the Price albatross, DD's Beantown legacy was smeared by his last big move, locking up Sale before he could prove he wasn't damaged goods (he couldn't, but imagine if the Sox hadn't extended Sale and then he won the Cy Young in 2019 and became a free agent?). Sale missed the 60-game Covid season, and half of this one, but obviously still has time to recover and make good on the second half of his contract. If Sale becomes an All-Star again, does Dombrowski's Boston signings really look all that horrible in retrospect?

[moonslav59]

DD signed JD for half of what his agent wanted, Bogie to a team-friendly deal, Eovaldi at market value for a near-top of the rotation starter, and Pearce for what amounted to a $6 mil bonus for winning World Series MVP (budget damage was similar to the $8 mil that kicked in for Schilling for his final season he sat out injured). He also let Kimbrel walk -- who was then paid, instead, by ex-Red Sox front office boy wonders in the NL.

 

Besides the Price albatross, DD's Beantown legacy was smeared by his last big move, locking up Sale before he could prove he wasn't damaged goods (he couldn't, but imagine if the Sox hadn't extended Sale and then he won the Cy Young in 2019 and became a free agent?). Sale missed the 60-game Covid season, and half of this one, but obviously still has time to recover and make good on the second half of his contract. If Sale becomes an All-Star again, does Dombrowski's Boston signings really look all that horrible in retrospect?

 

I don't think so. He did well with the big budget and farm trades.

 

What surprised me most was how well he drafted. I did not think we could find so many good players so late in the draft.

 

That is part of the reason our arm bounced back more quickly than I thought it would. Bloom helped with his trade-offs, last summer (Pivetta to name one) and the high draft picks from having a crappy 2020 helped, too.

 

We still have a way to go, but it looks like we are on the right track.

 

I will not be surprised if Bloom makes a big splash trade with a vet or with someone like Casas, especially if we sign or extend Schwarber.

[Bellhorn04]

I didn't say I was against the signing, but his contract hurt us a lot and still is.

 

Porcello did well for us, mostly in one year, but he hurt near the end.

 

Porcello was all Ben.

 

Like I say, the only clear dollar overpay DD made was Price.

[sk7326]

I don't think so. He did well with the big budget and farm trades.

 

What surprised me most was how well he drafted. I did not think we could find so many good players so late in the draft.

 

That is part of the reason our arm bounced back more quickly than I thought it would. Bloom helped with his trade-offs, last summer (Pivetta to name one) and the high draft picks from having a crappy 2020 helped, too.

 

We still have a way to go, but it looks like we are on the right track.

 

I will not be surprised if Bloom makes a big splash trade with a vet or with someone like Casas, especially if we sign or extend Schwarber.

 

DD did exactly what his ownership wanted him to do.

[cp176]

Yet here we are. Bloom has done a great job, but things weren't in terrible shape.

 

Things were not left in bad shape at all by DD. He was an outstanding GM for us at the right time. He is now not here amongst us. i've moved on and am very happy with the current team. obviously i'm not particularly concerned with who the GM is but a good job is being done.

[oldtimer]

DD did exactly what his ownership wanted him to do.

 

Is that why they let him go?