trade deadline

[moonslav59]

Best thing about our quick turnaround is we did not mortgage our future to do it, both financially and players wise. I think we'll begin to see some of that young talent matriculate to big league club.

 

Indeed.

 

Only 2 guys were signed for more than 1 year, and they were...

 

Kike- 2 yrs

Sawamura- 2 yrs

[mvp 78]

Best thing about our quick turnaround is we did not mortgage our future to do it, both financially and players wise. I think we'll begin to see some of that young talent matriculate to big league club.

 

One year of Bloom and we no longer had to mortgage our future. I think that says that DD left the org with a ton of pieces.

[moonslav59]

But nobody actually wants another deal like Price's ended up, do they?

 

Of course not, and Price didn't do all that great on the front end, either, but I still think there are times a team just need to take the plunge.

 

It's not something you plan overnight. It's not just about thinking a certain point in time marks the spot for a big deal. There has to be the right player available. I thought Price was the type of guy you wait for- you plan for.

 

Some might say, this winter is "THE time," but to me, Stroman is not "THE guy" you wait several years for.

 

I do see some SSs that might fit that bill, but then we'd have to move Bogey or trade him for pitching.

[mvp 78]

Of course not, and Price didn't do all that great on the front end, either, but I still think there are times a team just need to take the plunge.

 

It's not something you plan overnight. It's not just about thinking a certain point in time marks the spot for a big deal. There has to be the right player available. I thought Price was the type of guy you wait for- you plan for.

 

Some might say, this winter is "THE time," but to me, Stroman is not "THE guy" you wait several years for.

 

I do see some SSs that might fit that bill, but then we'd have to move Bogey or trade him for pitching.

 

Stroman is one pitcher, not the whole staff. The Sox can sign more than just Stroman.

[notin]

Stroman is one pitcher, not the whole staff. The Sox can sign more than just Stroman.

 

Stroman is probably the best option for Boston in free agency, but that hardly makes him the best available option.

 

It does make him one of the easier options, however…

[Hugh2]

Best thing about our quick turnaround is we did not mortgage our future to do it, both financially and players wise. I think we'll begin to see some of that young talent matriculate to big league club.

 

Absolutely!!!!

 

I just wish every Sox fan could enjoy such competency and not continue to sulk in their failed opinions.

[Hugh2]

But nobody actually wants another deal like Price's ended up, do they?

 

Before we signed Price, the narrative in Boston was that the Sox would no longer sign long term mega deals. With the 2013 world series still fresh in everyone's mind the philosophy was mid-term, mid-range talent. The Sox obviously reversed course when they signed Price (which is something I expected).

 

Now, here's my point. If the Sox made that Pivot just one year earlier, and decided to go all in on the top pitcher in the market we would have had Max Scherzer. That's the risk you take when paying guys into their 30's for what they did in their 20's. You could be paying a future HOFer who will be just as good if not better, or you could be paying a guy who is about the take a step back in his value.

[moonslav59]

Stroman is one pitcher, not the whole staff. The Sox can sign more than just Stroman.

 

Of course.

 

I'm talking about the type of pitcher we wait for and sign for large and long.

 

It's something you just say, "Hey, we need an ace, and Stroman is the best guy on this year's market, so let's make a splash signing."

 

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have Stroman, and we can sign two really good but not great starters, too, but my comment was directed only towards the next big and long deal we make, if we ever even do one, again..

[oldtimer]

Of course.

 

I'm talking about the type of pitcher we wait for and sign for large and long.

 

It's something you just say, "Hey, we need an ace, and Stroman is the best guy on this year's market, so let's make a splash signing."

 

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have Stroman, and we can sign two really good but not great starters, too, but my comment was directed only towards the next big and long deal we make, if we ever even do one, again..

 

We may need to do that with our own Devers. As far as pitches are concerned, they are known to be fragile. Signing one to a long term high value contract is risky. How many long term contracts have worked out? I am for signing a couple of good but not (considered)great pitchers. That way, we get good results with less risk for a shorter period.

[moonslav59]

We may need to do that with our own Devers. As far as pitches are concerned, they are known to be fragile. Signing one to a long term high value contract is risky. How many long term contracts have worked out? I am for signing a couple of good but not (considered)great pitchers. That way, we get good results with less risk for a shorter period.

 

Oh, I realize the risk, but signing a bunch or Garrett Richards and RP'ers don't do it for me.

 

Sometimes, we have to bite the bullet. I had hoped we signed Scherzer way back when, but Price did look like the type of guy worth waiting for. (Wrong)

 

I do feel pretty strongly Stroman is not "that guy" you wait for.

[Bellhorn04]

Oh, I realize the risk, but signing a bunch or Garrett Richards and RP'ers don't do it for me.

 

Sometimes, we have to bite the bullet. I had hoped we signed Scherzer way back when, but Price did look like the type of guy worth waiting for. (Wrong)

 

I do feel pretty strongly Stroman is not "that guy" you wait for.

 

Scherzers simply don't come along very often.

[moonslav59]

Scherzers simply don't come along very often.

 

No, and at the time, I thought the thinking was not flawed. We needed hitting and pitching, and the next year's market had several pitchers available, while Scherzer's year was basically just him, and the bidding got high.

 

The cost of Price was not really cheaper, so in hindsight, that was a big mistake.

[Bellhorn04]

No, and at the time, I thought the thinking was not flawed. We needed hitting and pitching, and the next year's market had several pitchers available, while Scherzer's year was basically just him, and the bidding got high.

 

The cost of Price was not really cheaper, so in hindsight, that was a big mistake.

 

That's all water under the Tobin. What I'm saying is that going forward, you can't really count on many durable Hall of Fame studs like Scherzer coming along. You're more likely to get another Price, frankly. Price's career numbers suggested he would hold up better than he did.

[moonslav59]

That's all water under the Tobin. What I'm saying is that going forward, you can't really count on many durable Hall of Fame studs like Scherzer coming along. You're more likely to get another Price, frankly. Price's career numbers suggested he would hold up better than he did.

 

Agreed, and signing any starter to a deal like Price's will be scary and risky, but I still think there are times when you just have to pull the trigger.

 

As much as I see this winter as a time when we can spend big and don't have a lot of holes to fill, so it might be the right time to make such a deal, I don't see a pitcher than comes close to what Scherzer and Price looked like when they were signed.

[Bellhorn04]

Agreed, and signing any starter to a deal like Price's will be scary and risky, but I still think there are times when you just have to pull the trigger.

 

Yes, and not moan and groan for years about it later.

[mvp 78]

Yes, and not moan and groan for years about it later.

 

Price's deal was fine. We got a championship out of it. His contract was so burdensome that we were able to move him and then be in the ALCS a year later. His contract is off the books after next season.

[moonslav59]

Price's deal was fine. We got a championship out of it. His contract was so burdensome that we were able to move him and then be in the ALCS a year later. His contract is off the books after next season.

 

Good point, but to move him, we had to include Betts.

[Bellhorn04]

Good point, but to move him, we had to include Betts.

 

"Include Betts" sounds funny.

 

We also had to eat half the money.

 

Price hasn't looked like much this year, so it certainly seems like the right move.

 

In total trading Price will save the team $30 million of AAV over 2 years. He opted out of 2020.

[moonslav59]

"Include Betts" sounds funny.

 

We also had to eat half the money.

 

Price hasn't looked like much this year, so it certainly seems like the right move.

 

In total trading Price will save the team $30 million of AAV over 2 years. He opted out of 2020.

 

Indeed.

 

You can come up with $30M that makes losing him not seem all that helpful, but you can also come up with this...

 

$14M Kike

$3.1M Renfroe + 2 arbs

$2.3M Schwarber for 2+ months

[mvp 78]

Good point, but to move him, we had to include Betts.

 

To me, his contract was made into a bigger deal than it actually was. He wasn't an albatross. If the Sox ate that much salary, they probably could have moved him elsewhere too.

[moonslav59]

To me, his contract was made into a bigger deal than it actually was. He wasn't an albatross. If the Sox ate that much salary, they probably could have moved him elsewhere too.

 

Price gave us innings most of the time, but I don't think he earned his keep. He helped in the '18 playoffs, so it's not something I complain about much. I was also for his signing, even though I knew it was an overpay, so being critical of him not reaching his contract value would be hypocritical.

 

We may have been able to trade him elsewhere, but only by paying at least half his deal, IMO.

 

I've never been a fan of the fangraph's value page, but usually because I think they overestimate the value a player gave to a team.

 

Here is the value they gave Price:

$35.2M 2016

$11.7 2017

$19.5M 2018 (not including playoffs)

$18.7M 2019

_______________

n/a 2020

($5.6M 2021 w LAD)

[Bellhorn04]

I've never been a fan of the fangraph's value page, but usually because I think they overestimate the value a player gave to a team.

 

You're misinterpreting what those values represent, but you have lots of company, because most people do.

 

Those values are an empirical calculation of the average cost of free agent players per 1 WAR. I'm not sure what sort of time window they use, but the average cost per 1 WAR is recalculated every year. Last I looked the average cost was about $8 million per 1 WAR.

[moonslav59]

You're misinterpreting what those values represent, but you have lots of company, because most people do.

 

Those values are an empirical calculation of the average cost of free agent players per 1 WAR. I'm not sure what sort of time window they use, but the average cost per 1 WAR is recalculated every year. Last I looked the average cost was about $8 million per 1 WAR.

 

Yes, and since Price was a FA and signed for FA money, I think seeing how he did vs other FAs who signed is something of interest.

 

Taking away the 2018 playoffs, do you think he earned his pay with he Sox?

 

In a sense, we ended up paying him $150M/4.

[mvp 78]

Price gave us innings most of the time, but I don't think he earned his keep. He helped in the '18 playoffs, so it's not something I complain about much. I was also for his signing, even though I knew it was an overpay, so being critical of him not reaching his contract value would be hypocritical.

 

We may have been able to trade him elsewhere, but only by paying at least half his deal, IMO.

 

I've never been a fan of the fangraph's value page, but usually because I think they overestimate the value a player gave to a team.

 

Here is the value they gave Price:

$35.2M 2016

$11.7 2017

$19.5M 2018 (not including playoffs)

$18.7M 2019

_______________

n/a 2020

($5.6M 2021 w LAD)

 

Price was dealing with arm issues that year. After the ASB, he had a 2.25 ERA and 8 QS in 11 appearances.

 

His last 3 starts in the playoffs:

Game 5 HOU: 6IP, 9K, 0BB, 3H, 0R winning pitcher for ALCS clinching game

Game 2 LAD: 6IP, 5K, 3BB, 2H, 2R

Game 5 LAD: 7IP, 5K, 2BB, 3H, 1R winning pitcher for WS clinching game

 

He earned his money.

[Bellhorn04]

Yes, and since Price was a FA and signed for FA money, I think seeing how he did vs other FAs who signed is something of interest.

 

Taking away the 2018 playoffs, do you think he earned his pay with he Sox?

 

Taking away the 2018 playoffs, no. Including the 2018 playoffs, yes.

[mvp 78]

Taking away the 2018 playoffs, no. Including the 2018 playoffs, yes.

 

Love to use arguments that take away a large portion of the reason you bring FAs in.

 

"Was it worth it if they never won in 2018?"

 

We brought him in to win a WS. They won a WS. It was worth it.

[moonslav59]

Price was dealing with arm issues that year. After the ASB, he had a 2.25 ERA and 8 QS in 11 appearances.

 

His last 3 starts in the playoffs:

Game 5 HOU: 6IP, 9K, 0BB, 3H, 0R winning pitcher for ALCS clinching game

Game 2 LAD: 6IP, 5K, 3BB, 2H, 2R

Game 5 LAD: 7IP, 5K, 2BB, 3H, 1R winning pitcher for WS clinching game

 

He earned his money.

 

He earned $150M/4?

 

He certainly was a big factor in the 2018 season, and I've said I would not say it was a bad signing due to that, but it's different saying he earned his contract, IMO.

[mvp 78]

He earned $150M/4?

 

He certainly was a big factor in the 2018 season, and I've said I would not say it was a bad signing due to that, but it's different saying he earned his contract, IMO.

 

Yes, he earned his contract. They won a WS. He was a big part of it.

[moonslav59]

Yes, he earned his contract. They won a WS. He was a big part of it.

 

I certainly understand that position, especially since he played a big part in the 2018 playoffs.

 

I won't argue we could have or should have won without him, because I'm pretty sure we needed him, but $150M is a boat load of cash, and if we are counting the playoffs, then 2016 counts, too.

 

I will say, I was happy we dumped half his salary and was not sad to see him go, which of course are entirely different things.

[dgalehouse]

In four years with the Sox , Price went 46-24. He was paid a boatload of money. In five years with the Sox , Sale has gone 40-24. He was , and is, being paid a boatload of money . He also cost Moncada and Kopech. Now , I know that wins and losses can be deceiving . And by no means am I saying that Price is as good a pitcher as Sale. But how is one contract that much better than the other ?