trade deadline

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I agree with many posts today:

 

Two actually good relievers would have made the difference in three or four more wins, and not just with their own stats, but by preserving pitches and elbow/shoulder stress for the rest of the totally spent bullpeners. Yep, the names are all hindsight now (who would've predicted that Brad Hand -- who some of me wanted for $10 mil last winter and for a prospect at the deadline -- would be as bad as Hansel?)

 

But what we'll never know is how the Red Sox players really felt about certain guys getting traded to other clubs and not to Boston. We do have the perspective of the media -- many of whom say the front office demoralized the clubhouse by not acquiring good reinforcements. Did it have an ill effect on the product on the field and the collective effort going forward? If you think that notion is overblown, you also have to admit the professionals who cover sports for a living are a lot closer to the pulse of teams than internet posters.

[moonslav59]

I agree with many posts today:

 

Two actually good relievers would have made the difference in three or four more wins, and not just with their own stats, but by preserving pitches and elbow/shoulder stress for the rest of the totally spent bullpeners. Yep, the names are all hindsight now (who would've predicted that Brad Hand -- who some of me wanted for $10 mil last winter and for a prospect at the deadline -- would be as bad as Hansel?)

 

But what we'll never know is how the Red Sox players really felt about certain guys getting traded to other clubs and not to Boston. We do have the perspective of the media -- many of whom say the front office demoralized the clubhouse by not acquiring good reinforcements. Did it have an ill effect on the product on the field and the collective effort going forward? If you think that notion is overblown, you also have to admit the professionals who cover sports for a living are a lot closer to the pulse of teams than internet posters.

 

A point needs to be made that the odds of trading for 2 decent RP'ers that both do very well are not very high.

 

The best one traded has sucked.

 

Some that looked as bad as Robles and Davis have done ok.

[Bellhorn04]

I agree with many posts today:

 

Two actually good relievers would have made the difference in three or four more wins, and not just with their own stats, but by preserving pitches and elbow/shoulder stress for the rest of the totally spent bullpeners. Yep, the names are all hindsight now (who would've predicted that Brad Hand -- who some of me wanted for $10 mil last winter and for a prospect at the deadline -- would be as bad as Hansel?)

 

But what we'll never know is how the Red Sox players really felt about certain guys getting traded to other clubs and not to Boston. We do have the perspective of the media -- many of whom say the front office demoralized the clubhouse by not acquiring good reinforcements. Did it have an ill effect on the product on the field and the collective effort going forward? If you think that notion is overblown, you also have to admit the professionals who cover sports for a living are a lot closer to the pulse of teams than internet posters.

 

One thing is pretty certain - no matter what moves were made, the best case scenario was a Wild Card game.

[Bellhorn04]

I suppose it should also be noted that one of the splashiest deadline moves-the Yankees getting Gallo-has been a disaster so far.

 

Gallo has 51 K's and 15 hits for the Yankees. You have to really let those numbers sink in to appreciate how incredibly bad they are.

[Elktonnick]

I don't think Henry is shocked at this year's team missing out on the playoffs or just barely squeaking in.

 

You think greatness was expected this quickly?

 

Just because the team teased everybody over 100 games, doesn't change the fact that Henry and Bloom knew this was not the year to go all in. The team is proving it, now.

 

I think what is disturbing is the sloppy play. Even players with limited skills learn to play the game the right way. This team has played stupid baseball, and lacked discipline on the field. It has shown itself to be poorly coached and not equal to the sum of its parts. If Henry expected this then he is not as smart as everyone thinks. And I for one doubt that is the case.

Henry and Co better do a rethink or Fenway Park tickets will be as easy to get as those for Camden Yards.

[moonslav59]

I think what is disturbing is the sloppy play. Even players with limited skills learn to play the game the right way. This team has played stupid baseball, and lacked discipline on the field. It has shown itself to be poorly coached and not equal to the sum of its parts. If Henry expected this then he is not as smart as everyone thinks. And I for one doubt that is the case.

Henry and Co better do a rethink or Fenway Park tickets will be as easy to get as those for Camden Yards.

 

I'm not sure coaching could fix the sloppy play. You can focus and D all you want, but when you have clowns as defenders, their big feet and make-up get in the way of making plays.

 

We can't even make routine plays anymore, let along a good one.

 

Great one, Fuggheagaboutit!

[moonslav59]

Sox AL Defensive Rankings:

 

14th Errors (81)

 

11th fangraphs rating (-2.2)

 

10th in DRS (-7)

 

I still don't know how UZR/150 places the Sox as third best. I've lost faith in their system.

 

To me, this says it all:

 

.323 BAbip Against

(The next teams are .309, .305, .303 then the rest are bunched between .273 and .290.)

 

It's not because our pitchers get hit hard the most, either. We are 5th best in Hit Hard % at 30.8-much closer to 1st than 10th, We are also 4tth in GB%.

 

 

Our D is awful- no if, ands or buts.

Edited September 1, 2021 by moonslav59

[Elktonnick]

I'm not sure coaching could fix the sloppy play. You can focus and D all you want, but when you have clowns as defenders, their big feet and make-up get in the way of making plays.

 

We can't even make routine plays anymore, let along a good one.

 

Great one, Fuggheagaboutit!

 

I see that have never coached. They have more than adequate defenders. The team lacked consistency and focus.

[Bellhorn04]

I see that have never coached. They have more than adequate defenders. The team lacked consistency and focus.

 

What more than adequate defenders are you talking about?

[Hugh2]

Downs upside is not Jeter-esque, probably not even Lugo-esque.

 

Well they can't all be HOFers now can they? Lugo, thats a much lower bar.

[Hugh2]

Just what the Seattle Mariners need: a 23-year-old middle infielder batting .179 (109 strikouts!) in 81 AAA games playing his home games in a hitter's paradise.

 

Sarcasm alert.

 

It's easy to undervalue a prospect when you only scout a box score.

[Hugh2]

Downs got attention because he was the high profile prospect brought back in the Mookie trade. There's no other reason for it.

 

He was a top 100 prospect before the Betts trade and a first-round draft pick. Being traded for Betts probably made expectations for him unreasonable but he was a high-profile guy beforehand.

[illinoisredsox]

One thing to keep in mind about all minor leaguers is that there were no minor leagues last year. A select few who were destined for AAA (maybe a few at AA) got to go to the alternate sites; the rest went to their local high school field and worked out with whatever local talent they could drum up. That's an entire year of development basically gone for most of them. It had to affected different guys different ways and it also makes evaluating them much more difficult. And less face it, some guys struggle at a Level before figuring it out and sometimes it takes over a year to do that.

 

If the highly touted ones still really suck next year, then you truly have some busts; I don't think you can read much of anything into this year.

[mvp 78]

A point needs to be made that the odds of trading for 2 decent RP'ers that both do very well are not very high.

 

The best one traded has sucked.

 

Some that looked as bad as Robles and Davis have done ok.

 

There weren't too many Kimbrel believers on here. We already lived through him as a closer and him not closing out the 18 WS.

[mvp 78]

I suppose it should also be noted that one of the splashiest deadline moves-the Yankees getting Gallo-has been a disaster so far.

 

Gallo has 51 K's and 15 hits for the Yankees. You have to really let those numbers sink in to appreciate how incredibly bad they are.

 

I hope he can suck for them next year too.

[mvp 78]

I think what is disturbing is the sloppy play. Even players with limited skills learn to play the game the right way. This team has played stupid baseball, and lacked discipline on the field. It has shown itself to be poorly coached and not equal to the sum of its parts. If Henry expected this then he is not as smart as everyone thinks. And I for one doubt that is the case.

Henry and Co better do a rethink or Fenway Park tickets will be as easy to get as those for Camden Yards.

 

That's honestly what has broken me this year. They have just played so miserably. That 3rd inning last night was something to behold.

[mvp 78]

It's easy to undervalue a prospect when you only scout a box score.

 

The Sox haven't swept SEA in SEA since 1993 so the Mariners MUST be a better team!

 

Or is it something else entirely?

[moonslav59]

I see that have never coached. They have more than adequate defenders. The team lacked consistency and focus.

 

Kike in CF, yes, but he was forced to play 2B, too much.

 

That's it. Nobody else is a very good fielder- okay maybe Verdugo. Some may be slightly above average, but no. You can't make players into great fielders overnight. It's not easy coaching focus and confidence, either, though that's not impossible.

 

Here are the UZR/150 numbers of our players before 2021 (2016-2020):

 

20.9 Verdugo LF

9.9 Kik CF

5.7 Arroyo 2B

5.6 Schwarber LF

1.1 Renfroe LF

0.8 Verdugo RF

0.6 Verdugo CF

-0.1 Bogey SS

-0.1 Renfroe RF

-2.1 Dalbec 1B

-3.8 Devers 3B

-6.5 JD M RF

-7.6 Kike 2B

-9.8 Santana CF

-14.4 JD RF

-23.0 Arauz 2B

 

If you look at what we had coming in, I'm not sure how much coaching could have or did make a difference.

 

The 2021 numbers (200+ Innings at a position)

18.7 JD M LF

11.7 Kike CF

9.1 Arroyo 2B

1.6 Renfroe RF

0.6 Bogey SS

0.6 Verdugo LF

0.0 Devers 3B

-2.8 Kike 2B

-4.9 Dalbec 1B

-7.7 Verdugo CF

 

All but Verdugo & Dalbec, with a small 2020 sample size, apparently improved their defense, this year. Surprise, surprise.

 

And we still sucked on D.

 

[notin]

Downs upside is not Jeter-esque, probably not even Lugo-esque.

 

First, Lugo was actually a pretty good player before he came to Boston, where his OPS was about .100 points below his career numbers. I’ve heard stories about a knuckle injury that changed the way he gripped the bat and threw the ball.

 

But as for Downs and his TBD potential, bear in mind he is 22, skipped AA ball, and is playing AAA after missing a season due to a pandemic. Maybe if he was in AA this year after a season off, he’d look a lot better. But he at least deserves another chance…

[moonslav59]

There weren't too many Kimbrel believers on here. We already lived through him as a closer and him not closing out the 18 WS.

 

Most of us who did not want Kimbrel was because we thought we'd have to give up too much to get him, IMO. My point was more about what a crapshoot it is when you trade for 2 months of any RP'er. To roast a GM for getting that wrong or not trying harder to get better than what he did is a bit off the mark, to me.

 

That's not defending Bloom. It's just the way it is with any GM trying to catch lightening in a bottle.

[mvp 78]

Most of us who did not want Kimbrel was because we thought we'd have to give up too much to get him, IMO.

 

Well, the minority were right. It was that he isn't that good. I can check the box scores to see that.

[moonslav59]

First, Lugo was actually a pretty good player before he came to Boston, where his OPS was about .100 points below his career numbers. I’ve heard stories about a knuckle injury that changed the way he gripped the bat and threw the ball.

 

But as for Downs and his TBD potential, bear in mind he is 22, skipped AA ball, and is playing AAA after missing a season due to a pandemic. Maybe if he was in AA this year after a season off, he’d look a lot better. But he at least deserves another chance…

 

He's on pause, to me.

 

I'm surprised his value has stayed the same on BTV, but maybe they agree with you 100%.

 

Wait, are you really the guy who runs BTV? Fess up!

[moonslav59]

Well, the minority were right. It was that he isn't that good. I can check the box scores to see that.

 

He was one of the best before the trade. Had we gotten him for Aldo, you and I would have been dancing in the streets.

 

Then, crying in our beer and wondering why we didn't get a guy like Schwarber.

[mvp 78]

He was one of the best before the trade. Had we gotten him for Aldo, you and I would have been dancing in the streets.

 

Then, crying in our beer and wondering why we didn't get a guy like Schwarber.

 

I let it slide the first time, but buddy I've never danced in the streets and would not do so for a baseball trade.

[Elktonnick]

Kike in CF, yes, but he was forced to play 2B, too much.

 

That's it. Nobody else is a very good fielder- okay maybe Verdugo. Some may be slightly above average, but no. You can't make players into great fielders overnight. It's not easy coaching focus and confidence, either, though that's not impossible.

 

Here are the UZR/150 numbers of our players before 2021 (2016-2020):

 

20.9 Verdugo LF

9.9 Kik CF

5.7 Arroyo 2B

5.6 Schwarber LF

1.1 Renfroe LF

0.8 Verdugo RF

0.6 Verdugo CF

-0.1 Bogey SS

-0.1 Renfroe RF

-2.1 Dalbec 1B

-3.8 Devers 3B

-6.5 JD M RF

-7.6 Kike 2B

-9.8 Santana CF

-14.4 JD RF

-23.0 Arauz 2B

 

If you look at what we had coming in, I'm not sure how much coaching could have or did make a difference.

 

The 2021 numbers (200+ Innings at a position)

18.7 JD M LF

11.7 Kike CF

9.1 Arroyo 2B

1.6 Renfroe RF

0.6 Bogey SS

0.6 Verdugo LF

0.0 Devers 3B

-2.8 Kike 2B

-4.9 Dalbec 1B

-7.7 Verdugo CF

 

All but Verdugo & Dalbec, with a small 2020 sample size, apparently improved their defense, this year. Surprise, surprise.

 

And we still sucked on D.

 

 

Verdugo is specifically the guy who made a brain dead throw yesterday. These guys as a team are playing undisciplined sloppy baseball which is the hallmark of poorly coached low morale teams.

The FO needs to get its s*** together and change that in the off-season.

[mvp 78]

If anything...

 

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Downs upside is not Jeter-esque, probably not even Lugo-esque.

 

Is it at least Beatlesque?

[harmony]

First, Lugo was actually a pretty good player before he came to Boston, where his OPS was about .100 points below his career numbers. I’ve heard stories about a knuckle injury that changed the way he gripped the bat and threw the ball.

 

But as for Downs and his TBD potential, bear in mind he is 22, skipped AA ball, and is playing AAA after missing a season due to a pandemic. Maybe if he was in AA this year after a season off, he’d look a lot better. But he at least deserves another chance…

To be precise, Jeter Downs is 23 years old (DOB 7/27/98).

[moonslav59]

Verdugo is specifically the guy who made a brain dead throw yesterday. These guys as a team are playing undisciplined sloppy baseball which is the hallmark of poorly coached low morale teams.

The FO needs to get its s*** together and change that in the off-season.

 

I don't disagree.

[moonslav59]

I let it slide the first time, but buddy I've never danced in the streets and would not do so for a baseball trade.

 

Okay, but would you be bitching, now, if Kimbrel was acquired and doing well?

 

If he was acquired and sucked like he has?