A Realistic View at 2021: Part II

[Nick]

Man, did dombrowski inherit a full cabinet or what?

 

And yet we only got 1 worlds series title out of that turds time with us! Ouch!

 

I don't really want to argue with you, but

 

Sox were coming off two last place finishes, three out of four. We proceeded to win three straight divisional title for first time in franchise history (I maybe off on that), winning the world series title along with third division title.

 

On paper, I thought our starting pitching looked strong in 2019, Sale, Price, Porcello, E Rod and Eovaldi. It just didn't work out due to injuries.

 

I think we can argue whether DD gave up too much of our young talent in order to win the world series but I'm not sure he had 'all that talent' to do much better. There were other pretty good teams.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Nick

[Bellhorn04]

Man, did dombrowski inherit a full cabinet or what?

 

And yet we only got 1 worlds series title out of that turds time with us! Ouch!

 

3 division titles and 1 championship in 4 years.

 

Please, Larry, let it go.

[a700hitter]

3 division titles and 1 championship in 4 years.

 

Please, Larry, let it go.

3 Division titles is unprecedented in my lifetime. And he inherited almost no pitching. I am a firm believer that pitching is what wins. Ben didn’t know pitching.

[notin]

3 Division titles is unprecedented in my lifetime. And he inherited almost no pitching. I am a firm believer that pitching is what wins. Ben didn’t know pitching.

 

 

To be fair, in Cherington’s 4+ years as GM, he had to deal with one reset and for a while was not allowed to give long contracts to pitchers over 30. Dombrowski benefited from having that lifted so he could sign Price...

[moonslav59]

To be fair, in Cherington’s 4+ years as GM, he had to deal with one reset and for a while was not allowed to give long contracts to pitchers over 30. Dombrowski benefited from having that lifted so he could sign Price...

 

He also had Bobby Valentine thrust on him, so really, he had 3 years and had just reached the point where the farm was about to be a big influence. Yes, I am certain he would have traded some prospects.

[Nick]

I'm pretty much done criticizing prior baseball operations people. We've won 4 during Henry era and we're looking for 5th hopefully in near future.

 

I'm happy with Bloom, Cora and the players we have. We need to get some of our younger pitchers healthy.

 

Life is good.

[moonslav59]

I'm pretty much done criticizing prior baseball operations people. We've won 4 during Henry era and we're looking for 5th hopefully in near future.

 

I'm happy with Bloom, Cora and the players we have. We need to get some of our younger pitchers healthy.

 

Life is good.

 

All our GMs did some good and bad, but they all got us a ring.

 

Period.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm pretty much done criticizing prior baseball operations people. We've won 4 during Henry era and we're looking for 5th hopefully in near future.

 

I'm happy with Bloom, Cora and the players we have. We need to get some of our younger pitchers healthy.

 

Life is good.

 

100%.

[moonslav59]

Dan Duquette had a lot to do with Theo's early success, too.

 

Port was at the helm for one year, at least in theory.

[iortiz]

I was glad we got rid of Cherington at the time. Pitching was always an issue all-in-all

 

 

I think Bloom will fix that and will splash in the coming years. Starting now.

[moonslav59]

I was glad we got rid of Cherington at the time. Pitching was always an issue all-in-all

 

 

I think Bloom will fix that and will splash in the coming years. Starting now.

 

A lot of pitching is about timing.

 

Ben had Porcello for a 7-15 4.92 season. Later, he won the Cy Young.

 

Ben had Wade Miley. Wish we had him, now.

 

Ben picked up Rich Hill for peanuts, but he failed to keep him around.

 

Ben not only had ERod, he got him for us for 2 months of Andrew Miller.

 

Yes, he swung and missed on Joe Kelly, and Buch fell apart at the seams, but I'm convinced he was poised to make a big splash trade (like the Chris Sale one) had he stuck around.

 

He also had Kopech and Espinoza on the farm, plus a bunch of top non-pitching prospects as trade bait.

[iortiz]

A lot of pitching is about timing.

 

Ben had Porcello for a 7-15 4.92 season. Later, he won the Cy Young.

 

Ben had Wade Miley. Wish we had him, now.

 

Ben picked up Rich Hill for peanuts, but he failed to keep him around.

 

Ben not only had ERod, he got him for us for 2 months of Andrew Miller.

 

Yes, he swung and missed on Joe Kelly, and Buch fell apart at the seams, but I'm convinced he was poised to make a big splash trade (like the Chris Sale one) had he stuck around.

 

He also had Kopech and Espinoza on the farm, plus a bunch of top non-pitching prospects as trade bait.

 

Aside that CY year from Porcello, he was trash. He was a 4.4 ERA pitcher even with that CY year. Number 4-5 numbers in my book.

 

Miley? the same. 4.4 ERA

 

Hill as you said, didn't give us much.

 

Kell, Buch, etc were horrible.

 

Yeah, pitching wasn't his forte. Thanks for that WS but he had to go.

 

Glad to see we have Bloom now.

[moonslav59]

 

Hill as you said, didn't give us much.

 

Funny how you say 4 GS'd and 29 IP with a 1.55 ERA by Hill is not much, but Houck's 3 GS'd and 17 IP is enough to make a judgment on.

 

The next season, Hill pitched 110 IP (2.25 ERA), then started 25 and 24 games the next 2 years. The fact is, Ben knew pitching. He just lucked out on the timing.

[Bellhorn04]

Ben had Wade Miley. Wish we had him, now.

 

You wish we had him from 2015 to now?

[moonslav59]

Aside that CY year from Porcello, he was trash. He was a 4.4 ERA pitcher even with that CY year. Number 4-5 numbers in my book.

 

Porcello had a 4.30 ERA with Detroit, including a 4.08 ERS his last 3 years there and 3.43 before comin to the Sox.

 

He went 4.92 under Ben, then 3.15 in his Cy Young year, the year after Ben left.

 

Timing.

 

Had Porcello had his 2016 season in 2015, Ben would have stayed another year or more.

 

Wade Miley had very good road numbers with AZ, before we got him. Hisd 4.46 ERA was way higher than his 3.79 ERA in 4 seasons with AZ. He was not a 4.4 pitcher, and still isn't.

 

He's been at 3.63 the last 4 years combined.

 

Timing.

 

Buch had some excellent seasons with the Sox, including 2013 with Ben as GM. His career ERA was 3.98, but he went 5.34 in 2014 and only pitched half a season in 2015.

 

Timing

[Nick]

Rich Hill for Rays

 

April. 22.1 IP 18 ER 24K 7BB .262 AVG 7.25 ERA 5 GS

May.. 29.2 IP 3 ER 34K 10BB .140 AVG 0.91 ERA 5 GS

 

Quite a turnaround...All for $2.5M one year deal.....Rays got this down...

 

Rays up 3-0 on Yankees...Yanks better start winning some games

 

PS I'm watching the Rays and Yankees.....Rich Hill pitching for the Rays....I see that Rich Hill is mentioned all around me in heated discussion...lol

Edited May 31, 2021 by Nick

[iortiz]

Funny how you say 4 GS'd and 29 IP with a 1.55 ERA by Hill is not much, but Houck's 3 GS'd and 17 IP is enough to make a judgment on.

 

The next season, Hill pitched 110 IP (2.25 ERA), then started 25 and 24 games the next 2 years. The fact is, Ben knew pitching. He just lucked out on the timing.

?

 

Are we going to put in the same sentence Houck and Hill? Really? ok LOL!

 

As I said, Ben sucked at pitching. numbers are there. Hill didn't pan out. Porcello was horrible 4/5 years in Boston. Most people do not even remember Miley was here LOL! and the list goes on goes on.

[iortiz]

You wish we had him from 2015 to now?

 

I don't think so lol

[moonslav59]

?

 

Are we going to put in the same sentence Houck and Hill? Really? ok LOL!

 

As I said, Ben sucked at pitching. numbers are there. Hill didn't pan out. Porcello was horrible 4/5 years in Boston. Most people do not even remember Miley was here LOL! and the list goes on goes on.

 

What do you mean Hill did not pan out?

 

We picked him up late in a season and he did great in 4 starts.

 

 

 

He signed as a FA that next winter and did very well afterwards.

 

How does that show Ben did NOT know pitching?

 

Yes, I compared Hill to Houck, because you went all gah-gah over a 17 IP sample size in 2020 for Houck but pooh-pooh'd Hill's larger sample size of great pitching.

 

Hill has a 2.99 ERA and 1.059 WHIP since 2015.

Edited May 31, 2021 by moonslav59

[iortiz]

Porcello had a 4.30 ERA with Detroit, including a 4.08 ERS his last 3 years there and 3.43 before comin to the Sox.

 

He went 4.92 under Ben, then 3.15 in his Cy Young year, the year after Ben left.

 

Timing.

 

Had Porcello had his 2016 season in 2015, Ben would have stayed another year or more.

 

Wade Miley had very good road numbers with AZ, before we got him. Hisd 4.46 ERA was way higher than his 3.79 ERA in 4 seasons with AZ. He was not a 4.4 pitcher, and still isn't.

 

He's been at 3.63 the last 4 years combined.

 

Timing.

 

Buch had some excellent seasons with the Sox, including 2013 with Ben as GM. His career ERA was 3.98, but he went 5.34 in 2014 and only pitched half a season in 2015.

 

Timing

 

I already have had this discussion regarding Porcello (plenty) trust me lol.

 

I won't go again, but all-in-all, he was nothing but a mediocre pitcher (4.5 ERA) for us, which I called he was going to be in Boston. That CY year was nothing but a fluke. it is what it is.

[iortiz]

What do you mean Hill did not pan out?

 

We picked him up late in a season and he did great in 4 starts.

 

He signed as a FA that next winter and did very well afterwards.

 

How does that show Ben did NOT know pitching?

 

Yes, I compared Hill to Houck, because you went all gah-gah over a 17 IP sample size in 2020 for Houck but pooh-pooh'd Hill's larger sample size of great pitching.

 

oks, he was picked up to give us 4 good starts. Cmon man.

 

He was/is a injury-prone pitcher man. He was/is an old dog.

 

Houck on the other hand, is an encouraging project who has already showed very interesting things in the majors.

 

you are comparing apples with oranges moon.

[moonslav59]

I already have had this discussion regarding Porcello (plenty) trust me lol.

 

I won't go again, but all-in-all, he was nothing but a mediocre pitcher (4.5 ERA) for us, which I called he was going to be in Boston. That CY year was nothing but a fluke. it is what it is.

 

I'm not saying Porcello should have pitched like a Cy Young pitcher every year. That's foolish thinking, but he was 1.50 over his previous season's ERA with Detroit and 0.80 over his previous 3 year average in 2015.

 

Had he pitched at 4.08 instead of 4.92, it would have made a big difference, due to the amount of innings he always pitched.

 

4.59

4.43

3.43

4.92 Ben's last year w BOS

3.15

4.65

4.28

 

If he was the only pitcher underforming, no big deal, but he wasn't.

[moonslav59]

oks, he was picked up to give us 4 good starts. Cmon man.

 

He was/is a injury-prone pitcher man. He was/is an old dog.

 

Houck on the other hand, is an encouraging project who has already showed very interesting things in the majors.

 

you are comparing apples with oranges moon.

 

I'm talking about judging how good a pitcher is based on 17 and 29 IP sample sizes- not comparing who has a better future.

 

You think a 17 IP sample size by Houck in 2020 over-rides a totally lackluster minor league career and ho-hum 2021 start.

 

You claimed Ben did not know pitching. I'm not claiming he was a pitching genius but merely pointed out that a confluence of outlier bad seasons by several pitchers in 2015 helped lead to his end with the Sox.

 

I'm not claiming Porcello should have pitched like Cy Young in 2015, but only that if you flipped 2016 with 2015, Ben would likely have been given another year. That's just one guy out of many that sucked more in 2015 than any or almost any other season in the careers of several key Sox pitchers.

 

I think the facts speak for themselves, but obviously, you don't, which is fine.

 

I'm glad we have Bloom, too. I like him better than DD and Ben.

[iortiz]

I'm not saying Porcello should have pitched like a Cy Young pitcher every year. That's foolish thinking, but he was 1.50 over his previous season's ERA with Detroit and 0.80 over his previous 3 year average in 2015.

 

Had he pitched at 4.08 instead of 4.92, it would have made a big difference, due to the amount of innings he always pitched.

 

4.59

4.43

3.43

4.92 Ben's last year w BOS

3.15

4.65

4.28

 

If he was the only pitcher underforming, no big deal, but he wasn't.

reason why, Ben wasn't good at pitching. It was a disaster all in all.

 

Porcello had 5 years with 4, 4.3, 4.6, 4.75 and 4.9 ERAs before coming to Boston. What are u talking about? Those are mediocre-bad numbers in my book.

 

If you thought he was going to post that 3.43 ERA moving forward after that "good" 2014 year where his BABIP btw was way down from what he posted in his prior years, you would be fooled —seems happened to u.

[moonslav59]

reason why, Ben wasn't good at pitching. It was a disaster all in all.

 

Porcello had 5 years with 4, 4.3, 4.6, 4.75 and 4.9 ERAs before coming to Boston. What are u talking about? Those are mediocre-bad numbers in my book.

 

If you thought he was going to post that 3.43 ERA moving forward after that "good" 2014 year where his BABIP btw was way down from what he posted in his prior years, you would be fooled —seems happened to u.

 

I never said Porcello was better than Mediocre. My point was his 2015 season of 4.92 was out of sync by almost as much as 2016 was.

 

If you want to count his age 20-22 seasons against him, fine. His 4.08 ERS in his last 3 seasons with Detroit at ages 23-25 were what I expected from Porcello with Boston as he "reached his prime years. Instead we got 4.92.

 

4.92

-4.08

0.84

 

4.08

-3.15 His Cy Young year

0.94

 

Pretty close to the same outlier status for both seasons, right?

 

His 3.15 ERA in 2016 was closer to his 2014 number than his 4.92 season of 2015 was.

 

Porcello was with the Sox for his peak prime years. He gave us 3.99 from 2016-2018 (3 seasons), then his bad 2019 season helped lead to DD's demise, as well.

 

He was a very good 3-5 slot pitcher who had his worst year in Ben's final season. Others sucked that year, too. That's all I'm saying.

 

Timing.

 

 

[iortiz]

I'm talking about judging how good a pitcher is based on 17 and 29 IP sample sizes- not comparing who has a better future.

 

You think a 17 IP sample size by Houck in 2020 over-rides a totally lackluster minor league career and ho-hum 2021 start.

 

You claimed Ben did not know pitching. I'm not claiming he was a pitching genius but merely pointed out that a confluence of outlier bad seasons by several pitchers in 2015 helped lead to his end with the Sox.

 

I'm not claiming Porcello should have pitched like Cy Young in 2015, but only that if you flipped 2016 with 2015, Ben would likely have been given another year. That's just one guy out of many that sucked more in 2015 than any or almost any other season in the careers of several key Sox pitchers.

 

I think the facts speak for themselves, but obviously, you don't, which is fine.

 

I'm glad we have Bloom, too. I like him better than DD and Ben.

Nahhh Im not saying a 17 IP sample size by Houck in 2020 over-rides a totally lackluster minor league career and ho-hum 2021 start.

 

This has nothing to do with the discussion Moon.

 

Houck to me is an encouraging project from what he showed in his short MLB appearance. Nothing more, nothing less. He is a promising depth arm who can pan out well. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Hill was in a totally different situation when he arrived to Boston. They bet he was going to be healthy and productive. That role/performance wasn't accomplished.

[moonslav59]

Nahhh Im not saying a 17 IP sample size by Houck in 2020 over-rides a totally lackluster minor league career and ho-hum 2021 start.

 

This has nothing to do with the discussion Moon.

 

Houck to me is an encouraging project from what he showed in his short MLB appearance. Nothing more, nothing less. He is a promising depth arm who can pan out well. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Hill was in a totally different situation when he arrived to Boston. They bet he was going to be healthy and productive. That role/performance wasn't accomplished.

 

Are you forgetting your Houck comp with Garcia?

 

You certainly counted that 17 IP sample size as the over-riding factor to everything else.

 

There's nothing else in his favor.

 

BTW, if he can pitch half as well as Hill, we have a keeper.

[iortiz]

Are you forgetting your Houck comp with Garcia?

 

You certainly counted that 17 IP sample size as the over-riding factor to everything else.

 

There's nothing else in his favor.

 

BTW, if he can pitch half as well as Hill, we have a keeper.

 

You are taking it out of context.

 

García-Houck comparison is apples with apples (and still)

 

Houck-Hill comparasion apples with oranges, Moon. You brought that comparison to the table. Not me.

Edited May 31, 2021 by iortiz

[iortiz]

i.e. prospect vs prospect vs prospect vs old-horse

[moonslav59]

You are taking it out of context.

 

García-Houck comparison is apples with apples (and still)

 

Houck-Hill comparasion apples with oranges, Moon. You brought that comparison to the table. Not me.

 

Because you discounted Hill's 29 IP 4 GS sample size, but used Houck's 3 GS and 17 IP sample size as the be-all-end-all.

 

Either 17 to 29 IP sample size count a lot or they don't.

 

Personally, I don't count either as much.