A Realistic View at 2021: Part I

[Bellhorn04]

Same with many of the guys DD traded- the jury is still out.

 

Correct, but it is a somewhat different argument, if you really want to get into it.

[moonslav59]

Correct, but it is a somewhat different argument, if you really want to get into it.

 

Yes, it is different, because time has elapsed on many the DD trades, and some he has traded away are known to be busts, however, with Daniel Bard's return- never say never.

 

I just see a bit of a contradiction when a few people poo-poo the prospects we traded away and have great hopes for those we acquire.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love the deals Bloom made. I also think the choices DD made were not just trade prospects vs keeping them, it involves how many were traded and could we have traded for different players with longer team control.

 

I'm not trying to open that can of worms again. The subject has been beaten to death several times over.

 

I'm hopeful and confident several of the prospects Bloom acquired will be meaningful additions to our roster.

[mvp 78]

Yes, it is different, because time has elapsed on many the DD trades, and some he has traded away are known to be busts, however, with Daniel Bard's return- never say never.

 

I just see a bit of a contradiction when a few people poo-poo the prospects we traded away and have great hopes for those we acquire.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love the deals Bloom made. I also think the choices DD made were not just trade prospects vs keeping them, it involves how many were traded and could we have traded for different players with longer team control.

 

I'm not trying to open that can of worms again. The subject has been beaten to death several times over.

 

I'm hopeful and confident several of the prospects Bloom acquired will be meaningful additions to our roster.

 

Not a contradiction.

 

@IanCundall

Looking back at the trade deadline, the Red Sox turned 13 IP of Workman (6.92 era/2.46 whip), 9.1 IP of Hembree (12.54 era/2.36 whip), 73 PAs of Moreland (.609 OPS) & 97 PAs of Pillar (.801 OPS) into Nick Pivetta & the #11, #12, #15, & #20 prospects in the

@SoxProspects

rankings.

[Bellhorn04]

Yes, it is different, because time has elapsed on many the DD trades, and some he has traded away are known to be busts, however, with Daniel Bard's return- never say never.

 

I just see a bit of a contradiction when a few people poo-poo the prospects we traded away and have great hopes for those we acquire.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love the deals Bloom made. I also think the choices DD made were not just trade prospects vs keeping them, it involves how many were traded and could we have traded for different players with longer team control.

 

I'm not trying to open that can of worms again. The subject has been beaten to death several times over.

 

I'm hopeful and confident several of the prospects Bloom acquired will be meaningful additions to our roster.

 

As I've said before, it's a natural bias. You hope that we're getting and keeping the right ones and trading the right ones.

 

You did open the DD can of worms, though. Actually, that can pretty much stays open.

 

Because some people keep saying over and over that he decimated the farm.

 

But as of right now, only one player he traded has registered a season with an fWAR higher than 2.1.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

As I've said before, it's a natural bias. You hope that we're getting and keeping the right ones and trading the right ones.

 

You did open the DD can of worms, though. Actually, that can pretty much stays open.

 

Because some people keep saying over and over that he decimated the farm.

 

But as of right now, only one player he traded has registered a season with an fWAR higher than 2.1.

 

He's tied with Bloom!

[moonslav59]

Not a contradiction.

 

@IanCundall

Looking back at the trade deadline, the Red Sox turned 13 IP of Workman (6.92 era/2.46 whip), 9.1 IP of Hembree (12.54 era/2.36 whip), 73 PAs of Moreland (.609 OPS) & 97 PAs of Pillar (.801 OPS) into Nick Pivetta & the #11, #12, #15, & #20 prospects in the

@SoxProspects

rankings.

 

The Sox prospects DD traded away were much higher ranked than that, and all I hear is none have amounted to squat. "None would have helped us win in 2019 or 2020."

 

Some of the same people on that bandwagon, now want us to feel great about the chances of #11 through #20 prospects.

[moonslav59]

Because some people keep saying over and over that he decimated the farm.

 

1. Usually in response to somebody praising DD or blasting Bloom for the situation we're in, now.

2. Was the farm not "decimated" or nearly decimated? (We kept Beni & Devers and a couple far away guys that look better, now.)

3. We keep hearing, "only one player he traded has registered a season with an fWAR higher than 2.1." over and over, as well.

4. Yes, the "can" was never closed, but it's a two-way street, as the can is opened on both ends.

[dgalehouse]

We just don't know. It could be that the prospects D.D. traded were overvalued and D.D. realized it. Or maybe not. One thing is for sure. Our pitching was in sad shape, both starters and bullpen. And there was no apparent help in the minors. We needed pitching.

[Bellhorn04]

1. Usually in response to somebody praising DD or blasting Bloom for the situation we're in, now.

 

Not true at all. DD gets blasted regularly whenever our current situation is mentioned.

[Bellhorn04]

We just don't know. It could be that the prospects D.D. traded were overvalued and D.D. realized it. Or maybe not. One thing is for sure. Our pitching was in sad shape, both starters and bullpen. And there was no apparent help in the minors. We needed pitching.

 

All of this is pretty much what I've been saying too.

[cp176]

All of this is pretty much what I've been saying too.

 

It is a reality that DD haters refuse to accept. Plus the fact that beating up on him, let's see by what 2 or 3 people here, has become as popular as the pastime itself. I'm into a new era now and do not feel the need to defend him anymore.

[notin]

As I've said before, it's a natural bias. You hope that we're getting and keeping the right ones and trading the right ones.

 

You did open the DD can of worms, though. Actually, that can pretty much stays open.

 

Because some people keep saying over and over that he decimated the farm.

 

But as of right now, only one player he traded has registered a season with an fWAR higher than 2.1.

 

 

 

As you said "player", this is not true. Unless you don't count Travis Shaw for some reason....

[moonslav59]

Not true at all. DD gets blasted regularly whenever our current situation is mentioned.

 

Yes, someone bitches about our current situation- sometimes blaming Bloom, and people bring up DD.

 

Many remember all the "thanks Ben" posts and are retaliating. This is true.

[moonslav59]

We just don't know. It could be that the prospects D.D. traded were overvalued and D.D. realized it. Or maybe not. One thing is for sure. Our pitching was in sad shape, both starters and bullpen. And there was no apparent help in the minors. We needed pitching.

 

No doubt, and the pitching we apparently had in the minors was too far away (Kopech, Allen, and especially Espinoza)

[notin]

It is a reality that DD haters refuse to accept. Plus the fact that beating up on him, let's see by what 2 or 3 people here, has become as popular as the pastime itself. I'm into a new era now and do not feel the need to defend him anymore.

 

I take it the new era started sometime between the second and third sentences?

 

Regardless, the defense of him always misses the major part of my complaint...

[moonslav59]

All of this is pretty much what I've been saying too.

 

I'm no DD hater. I'm glad he got us a ring, but I'm not going to sugarcoat the consequences.

 

It's ok to "defend DD" and "hold him accountable, at the same time.

 

I don't get the feeling many are doing the same- not that I claim to have the only right position.

[mvp 78]

The Sox prospects DD traded away were much higher ranked than that, and all I hear is none have amounted to squat. "None would have helped us win in 2019 or 2020."

 

Some of the same people on that bandwagon, now want us to feel great about the chances of #11 through #20 prospects.

 

Moncada, Dubon and Kopech are all good. Logan Allen may be fine. I don't think anyone is saying none of those guys are good? Maybe I don't know which poster you are referring to, unless it's StrawmanBoSox.

[Bellhorn04]

As you said "player", this is not true. Unless you don't count Travis Shaw for some reason....

 

My bad. From now on that will read 'prospect'.

[Bellhorn04]

I take it the new era started sometime between the second and third sentences?

 

Regardless, the defense of him always misses the major part of my complaint...

 

OK, here's your chance: spell out the major part of your complaint.

[mvp 78]

1. You can not like DD's trades and not like Bloom's trades.

2. You can like DD's trades and not like Bloom's trades.

3. You can like DD's trades and like Bloom's trades.

 

There isn't a contradiction.

 

I'm in group 3. I think DD's trades were overpays, but the resulted in a WS. If they didn't win a WS, maybe his trades get downgraded. Bloom had a last place team and was able to dump some expiring contracts and receive prospects in return. Whether or not Bloom's deals worked out, he had a last place team and needed to try and restock the farm. I'm looking for a contradiction, but can't find one. The 2016-18 Sox team is starkly different from the 2020 version. The situations aren't alike. Hard to compare.

[dgalehouse]

Michael Kopech throws very hard , but he had already shown signs of being a problem child. He has yet to accomplish anything for the White Sox. Anderson Espinosa still has not pitched beyond A Ball , where he has been less than stellar. His claim to fame is still being somewhere on the list of " Next Pedros ". Both have been injury prone at a young age. Logan Allen continues to be highly regarded on here for some reason. San Diego has since re-packaged him to Cleveland, where he is currently in their farm system as they try to determine his role. He has amounted to nothing so far. Yoan Moncada has shown excellent ability, although perhaps due to Covid , he regressed this year. Next season will tell a lot about him. Whether he will ever be better than Devers is debatable. All things considered, I think the trades were successful. We enjoyed three excellent and exciting seasons. I have no regrets.

[mvp 78]

Michael Kopech throws very hard , but he had already shown signs of being a problem child. He has yet to accomplish anything for the White Sox. Anderson Espinosa still has not pitched beyond A Ball , where he has been less than stellar. His claim to fame is still being somewhere on the list of " Next Pedros ". Both have been injury prone at a young age. Logan Allen continues to be highly regarded on here for some reason. San Diego has since re-packaged him to Cleveland, where he is currently in their farm system as they try to determine his role. He has amounted to nothing so far. Yoan Moncada has shown excellent ability, although perhaps due to Covid , he regressed this year. Next season will tell a lot about him. Whether he will ever be better than Devers is debatable. All things considered, I think the trades were successful. We enjoyed three excellent and exciting seasons. I have no regrets.

 

Moncada was better than Devers in 2020.

 

Espinoza hasn't pitched in 4 years. Nobody on here should be talking about him anymore.

 

How has Kopech been a problem child?

[moonslav59]

Moncada, Dubon and Kopech are all good. Logan Allen may be fine. I don't think anyone is saying none of those guys are good? Maybe I don't know which poster you are referring to, unless it's StrawmanBoSox.

 

You haven't been reading many posts.

 

Several posters have discussed how little help any of the players DD traded would have been to the Sox- some still think they'd barely make us better, even now.

 

I'll leave it to them to say what they have been saying again and again. (Note: you just responded to one. )

[Bellhorn04]

A fun exercise might be to figure out what our roster would look like if you reversed every DD trade as if it never happened.

[moonslav59]

A fun exercise might be to figure out what our roster would look like if you reversed every DD trade as if it never happened.

 

Another one would be to rank and rate the chances we'd have won a ring in 2018 with or without each trade:

 

Eovaldi: maybe 80% chance we don't win in 2018.

Pearce: maybe 75% chance we don't win in 2018.

Sale: maybe 75% chance we don't win in 2018.

Kimbrel: 40%

Pomeranz: 5%

Thornburg: 0%

 

(Note: I did not put too much thought into this. It is meant as a way to start a discussion.)

 

 

 

[dgalehouse]

Moncada was better than Devers in 2020.

 

Espinoza hasn't pitched in 4 years. Nobody on here should be talking about him anymore.

 

How has Kopech been a problem child?

Kopech had a lengthy drug suspension while in the Sox minor league system. He also broke his pitching hand in a brawl with a teammate. Definitely red flags . This year he got married in January , announced that his wife was pregnant shortly after that , then filed for divorce in June. This guy definitely has the characteristics of a problem child.

[moonslav59]

A fun exercise might be to figure out what our roster would look like if you reversed every DD trade as if it never happened.

 

Likely on the 40 man roster:

Yoan Moncada

Manuel Margot

Ty Buttrey

Logan Allen

Jalen Beeks

Mauricio Dubon

Michael Kopech

Noe Ramirez

Saun Anderson

Travis Lakins

Travis Shaw (team control ended)

 

Likely still on the farm, but not on 40 man roster: (not a complete list)

L Basabe

A Espinoza

G Bautista

 

[Bellhorn04]

Likely on the 40 man roster:

Yoan Moncada

Manuel Margot

Ty Buttrey

Logan Allen

Jalen Beeks

Mauricio Dubon

Michael Kopech

Noe Ramirez

Saun Anderson

Travis Lakins

Travis Shaw (team control ended)

 

Likely still on the farm, but not on 40 man roster: (not a complete list)

L Basabe

A Espinoza

G Bautista

 

 

Lakins wasn't traded by DD.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Likely on the 40 man roster:

Yoan Moncada

Manuel Margot

Ty Buttrey

Logan Allen

Jalen Beeks

Mauricio Dubon

Michael Kopech

Noe Ramirez

Saun Anderson

Travis Lakins

Travis Shaw (team control ended)

 

Likely still on the farm, but not on 40 man roster: (not a complete list)

L Basabe

A Espinoza

G Bautista

 

 

The other factor in this what-if exercise are the guys we wouldn't have, some in '18, some in '16 through '18. The history would certainly change, and if the team wasn't as successful, then some of these guys would probably have been traded anyway and wouldn't be here right now, either way.

 

For instance, would Moncada have had a pennant-winning homer in the '18 ALCS or the biggest hit (according to one statistical percentage) in the World Series, like Devers' game-winning pinch-single in the 9th inning of Game 4?

 

Other examples: would Margot have won the ALCS MVP instead of Bradley? Would Beeks have been the best pitcher in the entire postseason instead of Eovaldi?

 

They're all maybes, but doubtfuls. Then again, who knows -- maybe Shaw would have gone all Arozarena and compensated for all the others with nightly dingers.

[Bellhorn04]

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen,

The saddest are these: It might have been."

 

- John Greenleaf Whittier