A Realistic View at 2020: Part I

[S5Dewey]

I mostly agree, but as Sox fans we can't really complain, because we still do have an advantage over teams like the Rays. We can spend about triple what they can on payroll.

 

That's very true, but it's a whole 'nother story.

[S5Dewey]

1. They had day playoff games for years, but you’re only considering one coast. Want a 1pm game in NY? That’s a 10am game in LA.

 

2. I don’t think allowing richer teams to spend even more will grow the game outside of maybe in 3 or 4 cities. The small market teams are already at a spending handicap, and the way to expand interest isn’t to magnify it.

 

Want to grow the game? Keep everything in the CBA as is, but add a salary floor that prevents pocketing revenue. Install a program where revenue sharing can only be spent on free agency or signing bonuses, and if you don’t spend it, you lose it. In short, financial penalties for those who pocket money...

 

In spite of the things we disagree on we're right in lockstep on this issue. Teams that are accepting money via the "Competitive Balance Tax" should be REQUIRED to use that money to make their team more competitive. Duh!

[S5Dewey]

Here's another idea to boost interest by making baseball more accessible to kids.

 

Require each team to play one Sunday afternoon double-header a month in their own park. It would also shorten the season - which is already too long - by 5 days. Make them single-admission with the second game starting 1/2 hour after the conclusion of the first game.

 

And I don't want to hear crying about how the poor owners would lose revenue. I believe the owners are doing fine, thank you.

[moonslav59]

Then why was Golden State (from OAKLAND) playing Cleveland in the finals every year?

 

The NBA should want an annual Lakers/Knicks final. And they’ve never had one...

 

People wanted to see Curry vs LeBron.

 

The NBA is fixed.

[moonslav59]

True, but close to half the U. S. population lives in the Eastern time zone.

 

And, east coast fans are better.

[notin]

Here's another idea to boost interest by making baseball more accessible to kids.

 

Require each team to play one Sunday afternoon double-header a month in their own park. It would also shorten the season - which is already too long - by 5 days. Make them single-admission with the second game starting 1/2 hour after the conclusion of the first game.

 

And I don't want to hear crying about how the poor owners would lose revenue. I believe the owners are doing fine, thank you.

 

I am so proud. It’s almost like you’re quoting my game plan if I were commissioner.

 

For years, teams played doubleheaders every Sunday. The only reason the practice stopped was to increase gate revenue, as it was two games for the price of one.

 

But besides shortening the season, it would be easier on ESPN. Today, they schedule Sunday night games before the season and hope the games are relevant. And if they’re not, they sometimes reschedule games and screw over the fans. But if everyone was already playing Sunday night, they could just Fedex ARod and company to whatever city had the most important game...

[notin]

People wanted to see Curry vs LeBron.

 

The NBA is fixed.

 

Or... crazy thought... those two players were capable of carrying teams...

[moonslav59]

Or... crazy thought... those two players were capable of carrying teams...

 

Are you saying people didn't want to see that match-up because it was Oakland and Cleveland?

 

Nobody will ever convince me the NBA is not fixed. It's almost like WWE.

[moonslav59]

The games are too long anyway. Who wants to sit through two games in a row?

[Bellhorn04]

Are you saying people didn't want to see that match-up because it was Oakland and Cleveland?

 

Nobody will ever convince me the NBA is not fixed. It's almost like WWE.

 

There might be some shenanigans going on, but I don't think it's a total fix. I'm pretty sure the Raptors were not the team they wanted to see as the Eastern representative last season.

[notin]

Are you saying people didn't want to see that match-up because it was Oakland and Cleveland?

 

Nobody will ever convince me the NBA is not fixed. It's almost like WWE.

 

There was one instance of a ref fixing games for gambling purposes. But these conspiracy theories always have the exact same flaw. How do you explain why no one has ever talked about it? Every ref, every coach, every NBA head office intern. No one ever said a thing. And this is the NBA, not the CIA. It’s not like they have any leverage or can make any threats to ensure silence...

[notin]

Are you saying people didn't want to see that match-up because it was Oakland and Cleveland?

 

Nobody will ever convince me the NBA is not fixed. It's almost like WWE.

 

No. I’m saying that the championship involved the two best. It’s what we all want in every sport. Then we get it and people cry “FIX!!!”

[moonslav59]

No. I’m saying that the championship involved the two best. It’s what we all want in every sport. Then we get it and people cry “FIX!!!”

 

They weren't "the best." They were the most popular.

 

The games were fixed to allow fans to see who they wanted to see.

 

I'm not even a Rockets fan. I could care less, if they won or not, but they got hosed- big time, and not just in one game.

 

It happened so often, it can't be a fluke. I know it's easier to believe there is no scam, but the NBA is the biggest scam in sports, because they've conned people into thinking it's all for real. The WWE knows most people know they are fake.

[Behindenemylines]

If the starting pitching is not healthy then it will be another long summer. Sale has to be Sale, Price ( if they could move him that would be great, but I don’t see it) has to give them more innings, and with the emergence of ERod NE just needs to be a productive 4 or 5.

[kenmeister]

If the starting pitching is not healthy then it will be another long summer. Sale has to be Sale, Price ( if they could move him that would be great, but I don’t see it) has to give them more innings, and with the emergence of ERod NE just needs to be a productive 4 or 5.

 

And there's still a 5th pitcher TBD. Maybe we bring back Wade Miley?

[Kimmi]

Gerrit Cole's teammates all think he is headed to the Angels or Dodgers. He's a So Cal native and a UCLA alum and the Angels desperately need pitchers with two working elbows...

 

That sounds good to me. I don't want to see him in pinstripes.

[Kimmi]

It's not Ovah til it's Ovah

 

It's Ovah!!!

[Kimmi]

There are more and more factors militating against sustained success, Kimmi.

 

High finishes = low draft position.

Limitations on international free agent spending.

Higher arbitration salaries.

Luxury tax.

 

Look at Theo and the Cubs.

 

You keep bringing up Theo and the Cubs. A few things there:

 

1. Theo was more justified in 'going all in' because of the Cubs long drought.

2. That said, had he not gone all in, he might have still won the WS and not be in the position that he is is today.

3. Theo overpaid for relief pitching on a couple of occasion.

 

In other words, Theo did a lot of what Dombrowski did. I can more easily defend Theo, however, because:

 

1. See statement (1) above

2. Theo built that farm from scratch, so he had the right to follow through with his plan in whatever fashion he deemed necessary.

 

All that aside, my point is still that a GM does not have to go to the extremes to win a WS and/or to remain a contender. It is possible to be successful in both the short and long terms, especially when you have the payroll that the Red Sox have. I'm not saying that the farm system will always be top 3, but we should be able to keep it in the top 1/3.

[Kimmi]

The best World Series’ of all time are either the clash of two titans or the underdog story up against the titan. When two underdogs go up against each other, the story fades and people lose interest. Super teams are what makes baseball great and watching them win or fail is a storyline that fits with our country’s entertainment expectations. Think about it.

 

Imagine if TB made it to the WS and faced the Brewers. There are no fans in TB. Milwaukee is a place where most Americans have never traveled to and are essentially stereotyped to beer, cheese and brat-land. Not a soul would watch outside of Milwaukee (there are no Rays fans, so TB doesn’t count).

 

Baseball is running into a declining fan base problem. As much as parity helped their growth of fan bases in the other 24 markets, having the Dodgers, Yankees, Angels, Mets, Red Sox, Cubs, or White Sox brings in an established, massive fan base and immediately increases viewership. That’s important in a game exceedingly being forgotten by the younger generations. Baseball ops got sick of seeing the Yanks win and geared rules entirely towards them and now it’s affecting the viewership. They need to lessen them again and let the big markets bring the fans back

 

OTOH, I'm sure fans of other teams are sick of seeing the same teams in the playoffs over and over and over. I don't think super teams are what makes baseball great. Super teams are one of the things that are wrong with baseball.

[Bellhorn04]

You keep bringing up Theo and the Cubs. A few things there:

 

1. Theo was more justified in 'going all in' because of the Cubs long drought.

2. That said, had he not gone all in, he might have still won the WS and not be in the position that he is is today.

3. Theo overpaid for relief pitching on a couple of occasion.

 

In other words, Theo did a lot of what Dombrowski did. I can more easily defend Theo, however, because:

 

1. See statement (1) above

2. Theo built that farm from scratch, so he had the right to follow through with his plan in whatever fashion he deemed necessary.

 

All that aside, my point is still that a GM does not have to go to the extremes to win a WS and/or to remain a contender. It is possible to be successful in both the short and long terms, especially when you have the payroll that the Red Sox have. I'm not saying that the farm system will always be top 3, but we should be able to keep it in the top 1/3.

 

I keep bringing up Theo because:

 

-Most people agree he's the best or one of the best.

-The Cubs are one of the big payroll teams like us.

-The Cubs had a great farm, like us, and now they don't, like us.

-Like you said, Theo has operated a lot like Dombrowski starting in 2016.

[Kimmi]

I keep bringing up Theo because:

 

-Most people agree he's the best or one of the best.

-The Cubs are one of the big payroll teams like us.

-The Cubs had a great farm, like us, and now they don't, like us.

-Like you said, Theo has operated a lot like Dombrowski starting in 2016.

 

Theo is the best.

 

If it makes you feel better about Dombrowski that Theo operated a lot like him, then I can't blame you for that. But I do see Theo's situation being different than Dombrowski's for two big reasons. And regardless, that doesn't make that approach right. Also, that doesn't mean that having teams that are highly competitive can't be sustained, just that Theo and Dombrowski chose the short term only approach instead.

 

Full disclosure: Had Ben remained as GM and made the exact same moves as Dombrowski did, I would still not like most of the moves, but I would be less critical of Ben than I am of Dombrowski, because Ben did all the leg work of getting the team to where it needed to be. Ben, like Theo, would be in the position where it's his right to decimate his own farm, not that is would be the correct path to choose.

[Kimmi]

I keep bringing up Theo because:

 

-Most people agree he's the best or one of the best.

-The Cubs are one of the big payroll teams like us.

-The Cubs had a great farm, like us, and now they don't, like us.

-Like you said, Theo has operated a lot like Dombrowski starting in 2016.

 

Either way, the argument was about whether a team and farm system can be sustained long term. The answer is yes!

[Nick]

Either way, the argument was about whether a team and farm system can be sustained long term. The answer is yes!

 

This is why we should not make any trades that involves multiple players from Sox vs single from the trading partner. Also do not trade younger players for older players.

 

Just keep the farm system in tact.

 

What to do with Betts? You can't let the clock run out on him without getting something of value in return. Here you have chance to get either younger and/or make it into two or three fer for one.

 

What to do with JBJ? Non tender him. He's just not worth $10M. That $10M can be used to acquire two or three players.

 

We have multiple years vested in Sale, Price and Eovaldi. We can't abandon the money involved. They need to get healthy and Sox need to extract as much service time from the three. You can't simply Sandoval these three.

 

Team has to built around Xander and Devers.

 

Sox should keep guys like Dalbec, Chavis and Chatam. Give them chance to succeed. You can't trade them and at the same time bitch and moan about our farm.

 

I think most fans are willing to wait for better times as long as you're doing it with young talent. The goal is always to win the World Series.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Nick

[moonslav59]

There might be some shenanigans going on, but I don't think it's a total fix. I'm pretty sure the Raptors were not the team they wanted to see as the Eastern representative last season.

 

The east team didn't matter, so yes, maybe they didn't fix that half. It's not like Milwaukee was going to generate more viewers.

[moonslav59]

No. I’m saying that the championship involved the two best. It’s what we all want in every sport. Then we get it and people cry “FIX!!!”

 

I don't cry fix often.

 

The NBA is fixed. I have no doubt.

 

[Bellhorn04]

Either way, the argument was about whether a team and farm system can be sustained long term. The answer is yes!

 

I want to see living proof of it.

[notin]

I want to see living proof of it.

 

Move to LA or Atlanta...

[moonslav59]

Move to LA or Atlanta...

 

When the last time those two teams won a ring?

 

Yes, they win and have a strong farm, but they never win it all.

[a700hitter]

When the last time those two teams won a ring?

 

Yes, they win and have a strong farm, but they never win it all.

Good point. Toronto is another team that has been big on building their farm.

[moonslav59]

Good point. Toronto is another team that has been big on building their farm.

 

Look, I love winning every year and being competitive almost every year, but I lived that history for decades after decades.

 

I'll take the 4 rings, a few last place finishes, and some very good farms here and there over what the Braves and Dodgers have done over the last 2 decades.