2019 Spring Training Thread

[moonslav59]

The Sale proposal is a tough one. Normally I am in favor of spending. And Sale is one of the best in the business. But it is an awfully big risk to make that kind of commitment to a pitcher , not to mention one who has not exactly been a model of durability.

 

Well, he was a pretty good model, until last year, and counting the 15.1 IP in the playoffs, he still ended up with 173 IP in 2018.

 

173+ IP for 8 straight seasons.

 

192+ IP in 5 of the last 7 seasons, including 220+ in 2016 & 2017.

 

He's 5th in IP'd since 2016 at 599 with only Scherzer, Verlander, Kluber & Porcello having more. Only 12 pitchers have over 550 IP.

 

2012-2018

1501 Scherzer

1444 Verlander

1408 Lester

1393 Hamels

1389 Shields

1388 Sale

1384 Greinke

1380 Kershaw

1348 Porcello

1347 Price

[moonslav59]

Leon is 2 for 2 today (.727 OPS in ST).

 

Swihart is 2 for 2, also (.865).

[cp176]

couple things - too many people tend not to consider what Sale has brought to this team in addition to pitching. It isn't just about the money. Thank goodness John Henry has said as much. Some think that it actually has something to do with the fact that we did not sign Lester. I don't think that JH sees it that way. It is obvious how much he values Sale if he gets this done. We have an extremely wealthy owner who doesn't seem interested in having the Red Sox become a penny pinching franchise. If JH is not bothered by Sale's age, the length of the contract, and the money as well, I have a particularly hard time understanding why any one here would.

[Kimmi]

5 years would be my limit, and I would do it with great trepidation.

 

Sale should get a 3 year extension. I'm fine with the $35 mil per.

 

Four years, IMO, is already a year too long, but I'd do it because he realistically won't be had for 3 years.

[Kimmi]

I think it will be great news for Sox fans if they do it. It will be a clear signal from JH that he is all in for the foreseeable future.

 

Any time an owner is willing to spend that kind of money on payroll, it's great news for the fans.

 

Henry has always shown his willingness to spend. We, as Red Sox fans, are indeed very lucky.

[Kimmi]

What's one more year?

 

We'd be lucky he didn't hold out for 8 years.

 

One more year would be 3 years longer than what he should get.

[notin]

couple things - too many people tend not to consider what Sale has brought to this team in addition to pitching. It isn't just about the money. Thank goodness John Henry has said as much. Some think that it actually has something to do with the fact that we did not sign Lester. I don't think that JH sees it that way. It is obvious how much he values Sale if he gets this done. We have an extremely wealthy owner who doesn't seem interested in having the Red Sox become a penny pinching franchise. If JH is not bothered by Sale's age, the length of the contract, and the money as well, I have a particularly hard time understanding why any one here would.

 

Craig Kimbrel might feel differently.

 

No one should accuse the Sox of penny-pinching, but just because they do spend doesn’t mean there are no limits. For example, look at the current bullpen. Our priciest reliever is Tyler Thornburg who isn’t even a lock to make the team. The Sox bullpen will make up 28% of the active roster but make less than 3% of the total payroll.

 

This is because we have spending limits...

Edited March 17, 2019 by notin

[moonslav59]

One more year would be 3 years longer than what he should get.

 

He should get 7-8 years on the FA market.

[notin]

He should get 7-8 years on the FA market.

 

 

I’ll take the under.

 

 

Who was the last free agent pitcher to receive an 8 year contract?

[moonslav59]

I’ll take the under.

 

 

Who was the last free agent pitcher to receive an 8 year contract?

 

Okay, 7 years.

 

BTW, who was the last free agent pitchers named...

 

Chris Freakin' Sale?

 

[moonslav59]

7 years

$31M Price

$30.7M Kershaw (not a FA)

$30M Scherzer

$25.7M Verlander (not a FA)

$25M Felix (not a FA)

$25M Strasburg (not a FA)

 

6 years

$34.4M Greinke

$25.8M Lester

 

 

[Bellhorn04]

7 years

$31M Price

$30.7M Kershaw (not a FA)

$30M Scherzer

$25.7M Verlander (not a FA)

$25M Felix (not a FA)

$25M Strasburg (not a FA)

 

6 years

$34.4M Greinke

$25.8M Lester

 

 

On Opening Day 2020 Sale will be about 5 months older than Price was on O. D. 2016, so it's not a terrible comp.

 

I would say Sale would not be unhappy to get 6 years, especially since it's an extension relieving him of risk.

 

He might accept a 5 year extension with a higher AAV, but it's got to be one of the two, I think.

[notin]

7 years

$31M Price

$30.7M Kershaw (not a FA)

$30M Scherzer

$25.7M Verlander (not a FA)

$25M Felix (not a FA)

$25M Strasburg (not a FA)

 

6 years

$34.4M Greinke

$25.8M Lester

 

 

 

 

So two free agent pitchers have gotten 7 year contracts and no one got 8?

 

Scherzer is probably the best comparison. But even his contract was when teams were doling out bigger deals.

 

Sale isn’t going to be cheap. He’ll get a better AAV than anyone listed. But I don’t think he necessarily gets 6 or 7 years. Especially with all the buzz that has been around forever about the risks associated with his throwing motion...

[notin]

On Opening Day 2020 Sale will be about 5 months older than Price was on O. D. 2016, so it's not a terrible comp.

 

I would say Sale would not be unhappy to get 6 years, especially since it's an extension relieving him of risk.

 

He might accept a 5 year extension with a higher AAV, but it's got to be one of the two, I think.

 

5 years $170mill ($34mill AAV). Does he bite?

[cp176]

Craig Kimbrel might feel differently.

 

No one should accuse the Sox of penny-pinching, but just because they do spend doesn’t mean there are no limits. For example, look at the current bullpen. Our priciest reliever is Tyler Thornburg who isn’t even a lock to make the team. The Sox bullpen will make up 28% of the active roster but make less than 3% of the total payroll.

 

This is because we have spending limits...

 

Oh notin - really - You have to do better than Kimbrel to work your dark magic on me. I love Kimbrel too but paying a guy who might pitch 70 innings at best the kind of money he wants even I think is silly. Obviously JH is on my page with this ( like always ). Big difference between Kimbrel and Sale even though Kimbrel will one day go into the Hall with Sale.

[cp176]

Craig Kimbrel might feel differently.

 

No one should accuse the Sox of penny-pinching, but just because they do spend doesn’t mean there are no limits. For example, look at the current bullpen. Our priciest reliever is Tyler Thornburg who isn’t even a lock to make the team. The Sox bullpen will make up 28% of the active roster but make less than 3% of the total payroll.

 

This is because we have spending limits...

 

 

Oh also, yes we have spending limits - JH not so much.

[Kimmi]

He should get 7-8 years on the FA market.

 

He might get it, but only because GMs are crazy.

 

It's not what he should get.

[Kimmi]

On Opening Day 2020 Sale will be about 5 months older than Price was on O. D. 2016, so it's not a terrible comp.

 

I would say Sale would not be unhappy to get 6 years, especially since it's an extension relieving him of risk.

 

He might accept a 5 year extension with a higher AAV, but it's got to be one of the two, I think.

 

My preference is higher AAV for fewer years.

[notin]

Oh also, yes we have spending limits - JH not so much.

 

 

So why did we let Kimbrel walk and bypass all the other closers? If free agency has taught any lessons, it’s that closers are the safest signings. (Mostly because they take fewer years.)

 

But instead, you’re saying our limit-free budget ignored the bullpen while simultaneously backing up right against the highest spending limit and that’s purely a coincidence...

[fxkatt]

I've been sold on Sale up till about now, but I would be nervous about even giving him 100m for 4 years. God, I wish we knew how to develop young pitchers... cuz we always end up in that overpay position. What I'm saying is that I have no reason in the world to trust Chris Sale's health and durability--except maybe for his strong will.

[Bellhorn04]

I've been sold on Sale up till about now, but I would be nervous about even giving him 100m for 4 years. God, I wish we knew how to develop young pitchers... cuz we always end up in that overpay position. What I'm saying is that I have no reason in the world to trust Chris Sale's health and durability--except maybe for his strong will.

 

The fact is we have produced hardly any pitchers of Sale's caliber in the entire history of the franchise. That's why he commands such a premium price. Obviously you have to do your due diligence on the health of his arm. The team knows more about that than any of us do.

[fxkatt]

The fact is we have produced hardly any pitchers of Sale's caliber in the entire history of the franchise. That's why he commands such a premium price. Obviously you have to do your due diligence on the health of his arm. The team knows more about that than any of us do.

 

That is certainly true. But I was right about Ramirez, Sandoval, and Price, and I'm sure the Sox knew more than me in these cases too. (Belichick may at times make a roster mistake,but he NEVER overpays, even with a safety net under him in more ways to rectify such a mistake, and he has way more chances to make this error).

[notin]

My preference is higher AAV for fewer years.

 

 

Absolutely. Fewer years is always king...

[Bellhorn04]

That is certainly true. But I was right about Ramirez, Sandoval, and Price, and I'm sure the Sox knew more than me in these cases too. (Belichick may at times make a roster mistake,but he NEVER overpays, even with a safety net under him in more ways to rectify such a mistake, and he has way more chances to make this error).

 

Belichick is amazing, but football is a whole different game. He might not necessarily be a good baseball GM. Even the best baseball GM's, like Theo, make very expensive mistakes because player performances are much harder to project.

[a700hitter]

Yes he did. I was with my compadres A700 a en S5Dewey at the JetBlue Park and he looked sharp. Seems like they just offered 245/6. If true, it speaks volumes of his physical condition.

Our TalkSox contingent had a great time at the last two Red Sox games, and the Red Sox got back on the winning track. We were sitting two rows in front of Remy and OB and few rows behind DD, LaRussa and Eck. Iortiz and Dewey scored autographs from Eck, Remy and OB. Iortiz got Remy’s attention with an enthusiastic “Buenas Tardes!” just a few minutes before the live broadcast. It was a lot of fun watching the games with these guys. I am going home on Monday and looking forward to the regular season. Edited March 19, 2019 by a700hitter
.sp

[a700hitter]

It's silly to look for next 'Chris Sale' when we have the original ready to be extended.

Agreed. He’s dominant. Those guys don’t come along very often.

[Nick]

So why did we let Kimbrel walk and bypass all the other closers? If free agency has taught any lessons, it’s that closers are the safest signings. (Mostly because they take fewer years.)

 

But instead, you’re saying our limit-free budget ignored the bullpen while simultaneously backing up right against the highest spending limit and that’s purely a coincidence...

 

I honestly believe Sox just didn't want him based on his second half performance. Sox signing Eovaldi was the final nail in the coffin. Sox was unwilling to negotiate the length of deal with Kimbrel while everyone in the league was courting Eovaldi. Sox obviously wanted Eovaldi situation wrapped up as soon as possible.

[S5Dewey]

Our TalkSox contingent had a great time at the last two Red Sox games, and the Red Sox got back on the winning track. We were sitting two rows in front of Remy and OB and few rows behind DD, LaRussa and Eck. Iortiz and Dewey scored autographs from Eck, Remy and OB. Iortiz got Remy’s attention with an enthusiastic “Buenes Tardes!” just a few minutes before the live broadcast. It was a lot of fun watching the games with these guys. I am going home on Monday and looking forward to the regular season.

My son's best friend (who went on to play college baseball) once observed that baseball is the perfect game for guys to get together at. There's enough action to keep your attention but at the same time there's enough 'dead time' to talk about the action and to carry on conversations.

 

Iortiz & a700 are they kind of guys we all want to watch a game with, friendly, personable and extremely knowledgeable - although their collective memory far surpasses mine. :-).

 

Over the years I've had the opportunity to meet up with several posters, both from TalkSox and from the old BDC forums. Meeting these folks is a chance to put a face with the words and learn their personalities and I've never been disappointed. It's an experience I highly recommend if you get the chance. Now I'm looking forward to ST next year!

[notin]

I honestly believe Sox just didn't want him based on his second half performance. Sox signing Eovaldi was the final nail in the coffin. Sox was unwilling to negotiate the length of deal with Kimbrel while everyone in the league was courting Eovaldi. Sox obviously wanted Eovaldi situation wrapped up as soon as possible.

 

Not only Kimbrel. The Sox had little to no involvement in half a dozen available closers...

[Slasher9]

Our TalkSox contingent had a great time at the last two Red Sox games, and the Red Sox got back on the winning track. We were sitting two rows in front of Remy and OB and few rows behind DD, LaRussa and Eck. Iortiz and Dewey scored autographs from Eck, Remy and OB. Iortiz got Remy’s attention with an enthusiastic “Buenes Tardes!” just a few minutes before the live broadcast. It was a lot of fun watching the games with these guys. I am going home on Monday and looking forward to the regular season.

 

this is AWESOME. glad you guys got together/had a blast.