2019 Spring Training Thread

[Larry Cook]

Sale and price have to have good years for us to be a playoff team this year and clearly they have better numbers when pitching to Leon.

 

Should be an interesting season!

[FredLynn]

BMI is terrible when accounting for athletes. Bo Jackson in his prime had an obese number for BMI. It's a terrible metric.

 

Leon is fine.

 

BMI isn't perfect, for sure. For muscular athletes like basketball players or hockey players it doesn't work well as it fails to take into account the increased muscle mass present in those athletes. However, Leon is not exactly muscular, is he. Many baseball players are obese and its beyond my understanding why they are allowed to maintain that condition given the money they are making. I get that some players can still perform even though they are far overweight, but it does make them more susceptible to injury and poor performance. I don't think thats debatable.

[Bellhorn04]

BMI isn't perfect, for sure. For muscular athletes like basketball players or hockey players it doesn't work well as it fails to take into account the increased muscle mass present in those athletes. However, Leon is not exactly muscular, is he. Many baseball players are obese and its beyond my understanding why they are allowed to maintain that condition given the money they are making. I get that some players can still perform even though they are far overweight, but it does make them more susceptible to injury and poor performance. I don't think thats debatable.

 

Many baseball players are obese, seriously? I hadn't noticed that. When you see one like Sandoval, they really stand out.

 

And I can't recall Leon missing any games due to injury since he's been with us.

[Kimmi]

After the Red Sox series the Mariners will look forward to another 156 regular-season games, some against teams better than the Red Sox, some against lesser clubs, and three more against the Sox.

 

 

Not possible.

 

And BTW, the Seattle announcer is one of them most annoying announcers around.

[Kimmi]

While the pitchers all loved Leon, it’s not as if Christian Vazquez is a pile of poop back there...

 

This is true.

 

That said, Vaz/Leon > Vaz/Swihart.

[Bellhorn04]

Not possible.

 

Is harmony turning into a trash-talker?

[Kimmi]

He compiled 24.2 WAR over 15 years, or what amounts to 1.61 WAR per year, not sure that exactly qualifies as "great".

 

Varitek was great. Defensive catcher metrics back in the day did not do him justice.

[harmony]

Not possible.

 

And BTW, the Seattle announcer is one of them most annoying announcers around.

According to these measures the Mariners will play 26 games against teams better than the 2019 Red Sox:

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/depthcharts.aspx?position=ALL&teamid=3

 

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/world-series-odds-2019-predictions-picks-teams-to-avoid-from-top-rated-mlb-expert/

 

http://www.espn.com/chalk/story/_/id/26032042/world-series-divisional-odds-playoff-odds-all-30-mlb-teams-2019-season

 

Hometown bias is found on most team forums.

 

The Mariners rotate broadcast announcers but an outside fan's lack of familiarity can be excused.

[BillyWilliams]

It's not about staff ERA, it's about staff ERA with VTek vs the other catcher on the same team. He clearly got the best out of what we had. These are the pitchers with the most IP from 2001-2007. Other than Pedro, Schill & Beckett, there's not much there.

 

Pedro

2.45 w VTek (4491 PAs) (best of any catcher with 134+ PAs)

2.62 Piazza (788

2.71 Hatteberg (959)

3.08 Fletcher (2524)

3.40 Castro (776)

3.86 Lo Duca (477)

6.60 Schnieder (213)

 

Schilling (Joined Sox post-prime)

3.22 DMiller

3.27 Lieberthal

3.51 Daulton

3.96 VTek

4.25 Mirabelli

 

Wakefield (Vtek struggled catching the knuckler- no doubt)

2.87 Mcfarlane

4.12 Mirabelli

4.42 Hasselman

4.53 Hatteberg

4.56 KCash

4.59 Kottaras

4.66 VTek

5.16 VMart

5.21 Salty

5.24 Slaught

5.60 Stanley

 

DLowe

3.52 RMartin

3.63 VTek

3.96 Hatteberg

4.45 BMcCann

4.91 Mirabelli

5.17 DRoss

 

Beckett

.299 IRodriguez

3.68 VTek

3.73 Lo Duca

4.52 AJ Ellis

4.56 Redmond

4.83 Salty

5.46 Shoppach

6.97 KCash

7.94 Lavarnway

10.32 Kottaras

 

 

 

Just because he may have been better than the other catchers who caught the same pitchers does not make him "great", and there's certainly nothing in those numbers that suggest he was great.........

[moonslav59]

Just because he may have been better than the other catchers who caught the same pitchers does not make him "great", and there's certainly nothing in those numbers that suggest he was great.........

 

I said, great for 6-7 years.

 

.811 OPS for a catcher was and still is great.

 

His defense was great.

 

His record with pitchers was great. He got much more out of Pedro, Lowe & Beckett than almost all others. He did poorly with Wake for obvious reasons. He got more out of Schilling near the end of his career than others.

 

Plus, he put ARod in his place.

 

Look, Munson was great. Nettles was great. It's not that hard to admit an rival's player was great. Try it.

 

 

 

He was great for a period of time.

[a700hitter]

Porcello just took aline drive off his head that deflected into RF. He got up smiling. He has a hard head. I hope that he is okay.

[jad]

How is Porcello still in the game after that? They need to get that checked.

[jung]

Porcello just took aline drive off his head that deflected into RF. He got up smiling. He has a hard head. I hope that he is okay.

 

I think Rick "lucked out" in that the liner was tailing toward RCF and away from him when it hit him. If that had been headed toward his right side and tailing left like that it would no doubt have stuck and would have been much worse.

 

The absolute worst shots with pitched or batted balls are those that are tailing into you instead of tailing away from you.

[Larry Cook]

Wow! He is lucky. That was too scary.

[cp176]

Porcello just took aline drive off his head that deflected into RF. He got up smiling. He has a hard head. I hope that he is okay.

 

Sign that sob long term right now! The man wants to pitch.

 

While I'm on a minor rant, with respect to Sandy Leon, suggesting that he is fat because of his BMI rating is beyond absurd. It is kind of like when i was told that I had high cholesterol rating of 232 once by an RN. My doctor broke it down and said that there would likely be no need to check it again. The metrics just don't always tell the true story. If someone called Leon blocky, I would understand that one.

[Slasher9]

Leon is blocky

[Bellhorn04]

Leon's legs are as thick as oak tree trunks.

[BillyWilliams]

I said, great for 6-7 years.

 

.811 OPS for a catcher was and still is great.

 

His defense was great.

 

His record with pitchers was great. He got much more out of Pedro, Lowe & Beckett than almost all others. He did poorly with Wake for obvious reasons. He got more out of Schilling near the end of his career than others.

 

Plus, he put ARod in his place.

 

Look, Munson was great. Nettles was great. It's not that hard to admit an rival's player was great. Try it.

 

 

 

He was great for a period of time.

 

It has nothing to do with my team loyalty.

 

Ted Williams and pedro were great, varitek simply wasn't.

[Slasher9]

weird cause you cant even type Red Sox or Sox. its always sawx.

wow...real stretch calling those 2 "great".

sometimes what makes a player great are the intangibles. some know zero about that.

[BillyWilliams]

As evidenced by some thinking tek was "great".........

[moonslav59]

As evidenced by some thinking tek was "great".........

 

For 6-7 years.

 

I guess the word "great" is subjective, but to me an .811 OPS from a catcher is great. It was 3rd best in that period. Add that to his defense and the intangibles he brought to the game, I maintain he was great for a period of time. If you want to say very good, I wouldn't argue, but "barely better than average" is way off.

[notin]

It has nothing to do with my team loyalty.

 

Ted Williams and pedro were great, varitek simply wasn't.

 

Is there some sort of official standard for “great”?

[BillyWilliams]

For 6-7 years.

 

I guess the word "great" is subjective, but to me an .811 OPS from a catcher is great. It was 3rd best in that period. Add that to his defense and the intangibles he brought to the game, I maintain he was great for a period of time. If you want to say very good, I wouldn't argue, but "barely better than average" is way off.

 

I must have missed the post where I said he was "barely" better than average.

 

I did say he had a few "above average" seasons.

[BillyWilliams]

Is there some sort of official standard for “great”?

 

I think everyone has their own parameters.

 

But I think we can all agree that averaging 1.6 WAR is not "great".

[moonslav59]

I must have missed the post where I said he was "barely" better than average.

 

I did say he had a few "above average" seasons.

 

I misquoted you, sorry, but I'm not sure there's much difference in the two.

 

Maybe your criteria for "greatness" is different from mine.

 

He had the third best WAR for a catcher in those 7 years. Yes, that's above average, but to me, it is exceptional and great.

 

32 catchers with 1500 PAs

 

3rd in WAR at 18.2 (top 9%)

5th in OBP at .357 (top 16%)

7th in SLG .453 (top 22%)

7th in OPS at .811 (Only 3 catchers had an OPS higher than .811 last year. Tek averaged that over 7 seasons.)

 

To me, this is certainly closer to "great" than just "above average."

Edited March 26, 2019 by moonslav59

[moonslav59]

I think everyone has their own parameters.

 

But I think we can all agree that averaging 1.6 WAR is not "great".

 

For a catcher over 7 years...certainly better than above average.

 

How about 4.1, 3.8 and 3.5?

 

Those were his best 3 seasons. Is that "a few above average seasons" or a few "great" seasons?

[notin]

I think everyone has their own parameters.

 

But I think we can all agree that averaging 1.6 WAR is not "great".

 

 

So what average WAR per season do you think constitutes “great”?

[BillyWilliams]

So what average WAR per season do you think constitutes “great”?

 

I would think maybe 4-5?

 

I think it also depends on position.

Edited March 26, 2019 by BillyWilliams

[BillyWilliams]

For a catcher over 7 years...certainly better than above average.

 

How about 4.1, 3.8 and 3.5?

 

Those were his best 3 seasons. Is that "a few above average seasons" or a few "great" seasons?[/b]

 

Those were a few above average seasons... maybe 1 great.

[BillyWilliams]

Those were a few above average seasons... maybe 1 great.

 

Now, if he averaged 3 WAR for a catcher over his career I may consider that great.