The Pen

[notin]

The Yanks and Rays have used openers with bulk starters afterwards. The Sox haven’t done that yet, using traditional starters. So their pen numbers are true. The Rays and ours, not so much

 

The Sox have used the opener strategy a couple times this year. But not as much as Tampa...

[dgalehouse]

I don't think the Sox bullpen has been overworked any more than most pens are these days . It is being used as an excuse for their ( predictably) poor performance.

[notin]

I don't think the Sox bullpen has been overworked any more than most pens are these days . It is being used as an excuse for their ( predictably) poor performance.

 

The starters have been a big problem, but the bullpen isn’t without some culpability here. Most of which I pin on Dombrowski..,

[moonslav59]

We also have to remember that although we have used the pen-starter strategy less than some teams, and our innings are higher than most, we've had an 8 man pen all year long. That should have more than made up for the 14 IP extra we have.

 

I can't remember the last time the Sox have gone with 13 pitchers all year long.

 

The pen was thin to begin with and short on top quality arms. The hope was they'd get us to the trade deadline, and some help would arrive. The hope was our starters would dominate and pitch longer than they have to help take some of the stress and innings away from the pen. The hope was the hitting would help make up for some of the pen's shortcomings.

 

The pen has sucked, especially the last 4-6 weeks.

 

The starters have sucked and not given the innings hoped for. (We've had some long extra inning games, too.)

 

The hitters have not come through, when they have been needed most. We've scored a lot of runs, but not enough in close games.

 

Even our defense has looked worse than expected, despite Devers improving a lot at 3B.

 

Our GM, manager and coaches all are partially to blame, as well.

 

To me, it's one giant let-down.

 

Only Bogey, Devers, Price, ERod, Vaz, Workman, Chavis and a tiny sample size from Marco have been doing better than expected. You don't win with just 5-6 guys doing well.

 

[dgalehouse]

The starters have been a big problem, but the bullpen isn’t without some culpability here. Most of which I pin on Dombrowski..,

 

Absolutely. D.D. assembled this bullpen. ( And the whole pitching staff ). The results are on him more than on Cora .

[moonslav59]

Absolutely. D.D. assembled this bullpen. ( And the whole pitching staff ). The results are on him more than on Cora .

 

Does this mean we're done bashing Ben?

[illinoisredsox]

Does this mean we're done bashing Ben?

 

If I could figure out how to get that thumbs up emoji to work here ...

[dgalehouse]

Does this mean we're done bashing Ben?

 

In my view . Ben made the same mistakes following the 2013 title that D.D. did this year . Dombrowski should have learned from the 2014 results. Evidently, he didn't.

[Bellhorn04]

In my view . Ben made the same mistakes following the 2013 title that D.D. did this year . Dombrowski should have learned from the 2014 results. Evidently, he didn't.

 

Maybe Dombrowski thought the 2018-2019 teams were like the 2007-2008 teams, not the 2013-2014 teams.

[notin]

Maybe Dombrowski thought the 2018-2019 teams were like the 2007-2008 teams, not the 2013-2014 teams.

 

And that was a huge mistake. Especially since the 2008 Red Sox at least had an influx of younger players like Ellsbury and Lester stepping into larger roles...

[dgalehouse]

Maybe Dombrowski thought the 2018-2019 teams were like the 2007-2008 teams, not the 2013-2014 teams.

 

Maybe . To me , whether you are running an MLB team or the corner candy store ; you should constantly be looking to improve the service , improve the product and improve the whole operation. When you become complacent and stand still, others will gain on you . I have long believed this .

[notin]

In my view . Ben made the same mistakes following the 2013 title that D.D. did this year . Dombrowski should have learned from the 2014 results. Evidently, he didn't.

 

Yes the big difference was DD had the mistakes of Ben to learn from. Ben had no such predecessor..

[moonslav59]

And that was a huge mistake. Especially since the 2008 Red Sox at least had an influx of younger players like Ellsbury and Lester stepping into larger roles...

 

The farm was much worse by the time Theo left. Ben left DD with a great farm.

[Bellhorn04]

Maybe . To me , whether you are running an MLB team or the corner candy store ; you should constantly be looking to improve the service , improve the product and improve the whole operation. When you become complacent and stand still, others will gain on you . I have long believed this .

 

This is 100% illogical when it comes to a sports franchise. it's obviously impossible to improve the team's record each year. All you can do is be as good as possible given your circumstances.

[Bellhorn04]

Personally I think the only thing DD should have done differently this season was do more about the bullpen.

 

Most of the rest comes down to s*** happens.

 

If it was that easy to repeat, someone else would have done it this century. It's all been one and dones.

 

And we have 3 or 4 more titles than almost every other team this century. I'll take it.

[dgalehouse]

This is 100% illogical when it comes to a sports franchise. it's obviously impossible to improve the team's record each year. All you can do is be as good as possible given your circumstances.

 

The won / lost record may not necessarily improve , ( it would be extremely tough to improve on last year's record ) but you do need to try and improve the team . Standing pat ( or worse ) is never a good idea . Always try to get better . Presumably, the competition is doing that . I am not second guessing here . I have said this all along . And I said it in 2014 also. A sports franchise is no different than any other business.

[notin]

This is 100% illogical when it comes to a sports franchise. it's obviously impossible to improve the team's record each year. All you can do is be as good as possible given your circumstances.

 

To be fair, he didn’t say a team should improve every year. He said they should be looking to improve.. World of difference.

 

It was a statement about complacency...

[dgalehouse]

Personally I think the only thing DD should have done differently this season was do more about the bullpen.

 

Most of the rest comes down to s*** happens.

 

If it was that easy to repeat, someone else would have done it this century. It's all been one and dones.

 

And we have 3 or 4 more titles than almost every other team this century. I'll take it.

 

That is the ultimate fallback position. We won four titles , so this is okay . Wrong . It is not okay . And , you should not downplay the significance of ignoring the bullpen. In today's game , the bullpen is very , very important. Probably more important than ever.

[Bellhorn04]

The won / lost record may not necessarily improve , ( it would be extremely tough to improve on last year's record ) but you do need to try and improve the team . Standing pat ( or worse ) is never a good idea . Always try to get better . Presumably, the competition is doing that . I am not second guessing here . I have said this all along . And I said it in 2014 also. A sports franchise is no different than any other business.

 

I disagree. A sports franchise is different because sometimes they actually are much better off by getting worse. When you trade high priced talent for prospects you get worse but your farm improves. When you finish last you get higher draft picks.

 

Sports franchises are in a constant state of flux.

 

Another thing that's different about sports franchises is that sometimes the team owners make much higher profits by putting a crappy team on the field.

[moonslav59]

Personally I think the only thing DD should have done differently this season was do more about the bullpen.

 

Most of the rest comes down to s*** happens.

 

If it was that easy to repeat, someone else would have done it this century. It's all been one and dones.

 

And we have 3 or 4 more titles than almost every other team this century. I'll take it.

 

Well said.

 

It's hard to stay highly competitive every year, even when outspending everyone.

[Bellhorn04]

That is the ultimate fallback position. We won four titles , so this is okay . Wrong . It is not okay .

 

I think we have a great owner. He has brought us those 4 titles. He is driven to win. We have the highest payroll. I have no real complaints. If others want to complain that's their prerogative, but no one should tell me I'm not a good fan. I've paid my dues. I've been with this team since the late Sixties. I've been through hell, just like every other Sox fan who's been with them that long.

[moonslav59]

I think we have a great owner. He has brought us those 4 titles. He is driven to win. We have the highest payroll. I have no real complaints. If others want to complain that's their prerogative, but no one should tell me I'm not a good fan. I've paid my dues. I've been with this team since the late Sixties. I've been through hell, just like every other Sox fan who's been with them that long.

 

I totally agree, and we all knew we were going for broke and giving up a bit of the future to do it.

 

Yes, any team that outspends everyone else (some competitors by 3 X) should be more competitive than this, but we emptied the farm for the ring #4, and it may be time to pay for it with a down year or 2 (hopefully not more).

 

Being a Sox fan from the early 70's to 2004 has made me more accepting of 1-3 year lulls, despite mega spending.

[dgalehouse]

I think we have a great owner. He has brought us those 4 titles. He is driven to win. We have the highest payroll. I have no real complaints. If others want to complain that's their prerogative, but no one should tell me I'm not a good fan. I've paid my dues. I've been with this team since the late Sixties. I've been through hell, just like every other Sox fan who's been with them that long.

 

Bell , I have never said you are not a good , loyal fan . I just think the goal should always be to get better . Winning four titles does not change that . Yes , we have the highest payroll . But the money has not been allocated wisely this season . That is poor money management . The bullpen was an obvious weakness from the start . I said that at the time . I was told that I was wrong . It came to pass as I feared it would . But I am still wrong . I've paid my dues , too . And then some .

[moonslav59]

Bell , I have never said you are not a good , loyal fan . I just think the goal should always be to get better . Winning four titles does not change that . Yes , we have the highest payroll . But the money has not been allocated wisely this season . That is poor money management . The bullpen was an obvious weakness from the start . I said that at the time . I was told that I was wrong . It came to pass as I feared it would . But I am still wrong . I've paid my dues , too . And then some .

 

We had very limited funds this past winter and very little hope from our farm. This was a direct result of always trying to get better every year. In theory, the philosophy sounds great, but we sold our future for today, and the future is now here.

 

Yes, signing Pearce instead of a pen arm was a mistake, but we thought we needed help for the fragile Moreland. Was DD wrong about that?

 

Yes, Eovaldi got hurt. That sucked.

 

Yes, DD made spending mistakes, but to expect no mistakes in FA signings is unrealistic.

[Bellhorn04]

We had very limited funds this past winter and very little hope from our farm. This was a direct result of always trying to get better every year. In theory, the philosophy sounds great, but we sold our future for today, and the future is now here.

 

Yes, signing Pearce instead of a pen arm was a mistake, but we thought we needed help for the fragile Moreland. Was DD wrong about that?

 

Yes, Eovaldi got hurt. That sucked.

 

Yes, DD made spending mistakes, but to expect no mistakes in FA signings is unrealistic.

 

All my sentiments exactly.

[dgalehouse]

We had very limited funds this past winter and very little hope from our farm. This was a direct result of always trying to get better every year. In theory, the philosophy sounds great, but we sold our future for today, and the future is now here.

 

Yes, signing Pearce instead of a pen arm was a mistake, but we thought we needed help for the fragile Moreland. Was DD wrong about that?

 

Yes, Eovaldi got hurt. That sucked.

 

Yes, DD made spending mistakes, but to expect no mistakes in FA signings is unrealistic.

 

To have a payroll that size and go so cheap on the bullpen is poor management . Dombrowski has had much success with this team , but he doesn't get a pass on this . Sorry . But the truth is the truth . Not giving up yet either . Hoping that Eovaldi is the answer .

[jung]

To have a payroll that size and go so cheap on the bullpen is poor management . Dombrowski has had much success with this team , but he doesn't get a pass on this . Sorry . But the truth is the truth . Not giving up yet either . Hoping that Eovaldi is the answer .

 

His MO is to overpay and then I guess ask the owner for more money. At some point the owner is going to exhibit some control especially having just won a championship. Seems to me that this is the same old DD....overpay, which ends up biting him in the ass when he needs to make moves. That must prompt him to go to ownership for more money and ownership has to make a choice at that point. Given DD's history does that sound like his MO or not.

 

I think DD's real problem is that he has NEVER exhibited any interesting in modifying his MO which leaves an owner like John Henry left to manage him constantly. I think Henry has his championship. in fact he has four them in 14 years. He does not need to win this year. His revenue stream is not nearly as dependent on winning as would suite us. I suspect DD's days here are numbered frankly.

[fxkatt]

At times I think there was a kind of romance in re-signing Pearce, Moreland, Brasier, Eovaldi--and, of course, maybe Chris Sale too. This becomes even more true when you factor in the price paid for most of these players. Probably the only one of these I would have gone for at nearly the same cost is Eovaldi, but even with him I worried that he might have been over-worked in the World Series, and thus possibly damaged.

 

In any case, if only a couple of these guys had been signed, we wd have been able to invest in an bullpen, one that may have inspired better performances from our current starting rotation. But I still think we can rise up this year, tho. , but only if we luck out with July trades for Pitching Only.

[S5Dewey]

I totally agree, and we all knew we were going for broke and giving up a bit of the future to do it.

Anyone who was paying attention knew we were mortgaging the future for the run in 2018. The thing that didn't go as planned was that we thought this team would be good enough to remain competitive for 2019 and maybe 2020.

 

Even then, the only thing that happened that wasn't predictable was having half of our starting pitching staff go into the crapper. If Sale & Porcillo had pitched as planned we'd be in the run with the MFY's and at worst have a WC spot wrapped up by now.

[moonslav59]

To have a payroll that size and go so cheap on the bullpen is poor management . Dombrowski has had much success with this team , but he doesn't get a pass on this . Sorry . But the truth is the truth . Not giving up yet either . Hoping that Eovaldi is the answer .

 

I agree. We should have spent on the pen, instead of Pearce, but Moreland did get hurt and nobody expected Chavis to be better than both.

 

Yes, DD made mistakes. I'm not saying he didn't. It was part of my point.

 

The budget was limited, and we had had many needs: 4th starter, 5th starter, Closer, Set-up man, 1B, 2B and some felt catcher and another RP'er.

 

I have no issue with anyone saying Eovaldi & Pearce were mistakes, and many said so at the time, but it's not like DD did not try to fill the holes he felt were needed most.

 

I'm not giving DD a pass- far from it. He gets credit for getting us the 4th ring, but he also gets the blame for forcing us to max out the budget while emptying the farm to do so. I was okay with the plan. I had hoped we kept more of the farm, but his plan worked. Now the second part of the plan is fast arriving, and it's time to face the consequences.

 

DD gets credit for the win and the blame for where we are now.