The Pen

[moonslav59]

His MO is to overpay and then I guess ask the owner for more money. At some point the owner is going to exhibit some control especially having just won a championship. Seems to me that this is the same old DD....overpay, which ends up biting him in the ass when he needs to make moves. That must prompt him to go to ownership for more money and ownership has to make a choice at that point. Given DD's history does that sound like his MO or not.

 

I think DD's real problem is that he has NEVER exhibited any interesting in modifying his MO which leaves an owner like John Henry left to manage him constantly. I think Henry has his championship. in fact he has four them in 14 years. He does not need to win this year. His revenue stream is not nearly as dependent on winning as would suite us. I suspect DD's days here are numbered frankly.

 

Yes, he overpaid for Moreland and Pearce. I doubt anyone would have paid Eovaldi that much for 4 years.

 

I do not think he overpaid for Price. He was the best, and the best cost mega bucks.

 

I loved the Sale signing, and we'll see if it becomes our next albatross or not.

 

JD was not overpaid. Bogey was not overpaid.

 

Overall, DD seems to have come out about even on the overpay/underpay scale,to me.

[moonslav59]

Anyone who was paying attention knew we were mortgaging the future for the run in 2018. The thing that didn't go as planned was that we thought this team would be good enough to remain competitive for 2019 and maybe 2020.

 

Even then, the only thing that happened that wasn't predictable was having half of our starting pitching staff go into the crapper. If Sale & Porcillo had pitched as planned we'd be in the run with the MFY's and at worst have a WC spot wrapped up by now.

 

Well said, and what GM, in their right mind, would not try to win again in 2019 without going even more nutty with the spending?

[notin]

To have a payroll that size and go so cheap on the bullpen is poor management . Dombrowski has had much success with this team , but he doesn't get a pass on this . Sorry . But the truth is the truth . Not giving up yet either . Hoping that Eovaldi is the answer .

 

And therein lies the problem.

 

Dombrowski did what he’s always been known for - pay heavily for star talent in the lineup and rotation and ignore the bullpen. It’s the same tactic that kept Detroit as an also-ran for half a decade. It has worked for him on occasion, but had he ever decided to bolster the bullpen in Detroit, there’s a good chance the Sox don’t win a title in 2013.

 

With the payroll he has, there’s no reason to leave such a glaring weakness on this team and no reason to throw a bunch of relievers at the wall and see who sticks. In Miami in 2003, you can pull that off. But in 2019, with a rest-oriented manager, this was a bad idea...

[jung]

Yes, he overpaid for Moreland and Pearce. I doubt anyone would have paid Eovaldi that much for 4 years.

 

I do not think he overpaid for Price. He was the best, and the best cost mega bucks.

 

I loved the Sale signing, and we'll see if it becomes our next albatross or not.

 

JD was not overpaid. Bogey was not overpaid.

 

Overall, DD seems to have come out about even on the overpay/underpay scale,to me.

 

There was simply NO REASON....NONE to extend Sale when DD extended him and out to 2024 no less for a guy with a rep now for punking out at the end of seasons. That was a lotta' money to pay for a starter under those circumstances when DD really did not have to do it. I do not believe as some have commented that Sale was injured and the Sox knew it. That simply does not make sense. That he is wearing down is fairly obvious. Wear is not injury and wear has never been considered injury. Tissue shredding and bone crumbling and tendons snapping....that is injury. We would have preferred that DD wait and not extend Sale when he did and if we would not have preferred that we are out of our minds.

 

As for Eovaldi, that is another starting pitcher overpay. I would be more specific in my comments about DD than some have been here. Where he really overpays IMO is starting pitching and he has done that now twice in the same year....Sale and Eovaldi, both of whom are worrisome expenditures into a John Henry that I suspect is getting leery of simply allowing DD free access to his bank account. Then of course there is that annoying tendency of DD's of simply throwing stuff for the pen against the wall to see what sticks. That simply flies in the face of where this game has been going for at least 10 years now. I don't like the way this game is going but if I had the purse strings for player personnel what I don't like becomes irrelevant in the face of an obvious trend. DD seems to be fighting the trend which is IMO an untenable position.

 

I have no issues with the Price deal and JD was fine but not better than fine. Price was a gamble at his age for that kind of cash and term. But the gamble has paid off in a championship and its late enough in his deal that if he folds like a cheap suit....that is sort of how these long term deals work out anyway. I have no issues with JD either except now JD is making noise about wanting to be on firmer footing with the Sox in a more solid deal than he has. NO WAY!!!! JD has trouble hitting breaking stuff right into a cadre of MLB pitchers starting to throw buckets of breaking stuff at him. IMO the hitters that are really thriving now are those that take advantage of the fact that nobody pitches inside effectively anymore. Devers dives across the batters box. So does X. Bellinger by God sets up with his elbow hanging over the inner third of the plate. JD is not going to change what he does. He is a process hitter that lives off of weak cheese. He has his process. He is not going to deviate. NO WAY do I rewrite JD's deal and if he wants to opt out.....thanks for the 2018 effort JD.

 

X has been a real treasure here. But I think the player himself is as responsible as DD for that one. X must have been sending very favorable vibes and his response to just having signed a big money, long term deal is so singularly rare in this day and age that the Sox must have felt very comfortable with that deal going into it. They live with the player and must have known his character is as it projects and frankly even from the outside looking in, if any young Sox player looked like the kind of guy you would do this for even before the deal was done, its X by a country mile.

 

Pearce was particularly senseless. Hated it from the minute I heard it. Moreland was a bit of a mystery as well but Pearce was just flat out bad and smelled bad right from the start.

 

I don't think DD will be kept past his 2020 contract expiration. Might even go before then as its tough to have a Pres of baseball ops that is a lame duck.

Edited July 18, 2019 by jung

[Bellhorn04]

Pearce was particularly senseless. Hated it from the minute I heard it. Moreland was a bit of a mystery as well but Pearce was just flat out bad and smelled bad right from the start.

 

Reaction here to the Pearce signing was overwhelmingly positive at the time. You should have voiced your dissent on that thread, it would have made you look wise, now that Steve and Mitch are doing their duet on "American Idle".

[TylerD]

Reaction here to the Pearce signing was overwhelmingly positive at the time. You should have voiced your dissent on that thread, it would have made you look wise, now that Steve and Mitch are doing their duet on "American Idle".

 

Agreed. I don’t actually remember one person upset about signing Pearce.

[jung]

Reaction here to the Pearce signing was overwhelmingly positive at the time. You should have voiced your dissent on that thread, it would have made you look wise, now that Steve and Mitch are doing their duet on "American Idle".

 

I DID voice it here at the time. Flat out said I would have tried to bring Nate back but that Pearce made no sense AT ALL!

[Bellhorn04]

I DID voice it here at the time. Flat out said I would have tried to bring Nate back but that Pearce made no sense AT ALL!

 

Your mistake, then, was not doing it on the thread for the Pearce signing where it would have been readily accessible.

[jung]

Your mistake, then, was not doing it on the thread for the Pearce signing where it would have been readily accessible.

 

You won't find me posting much here in the fall or winter time. After the WS even if I have something to say I am not likely to post it here. Usually I start posting here in earnest once ST starts, sometimes later than that. I probably did not even see that thread. In fact I think I just saw it for the first time just now because I went looking for it.

 

Posters don't really follow the same patterns of posting. Me, I don't really have much interest in the hot stove stuff....certainly not in posting about it....never have. Show me who we are starting the season carrying and who the competition is carrying and that is when you are likely to see me comment.

[notin]

I DID voice it here at the time. Flat out said I would have tried to bring Nate back but that Pearce made no sense AT ALL!

 

I thought the Pearce signing made sense but I was unaware of the budget limitations at the time. I assume DD was aware of them.

 

I didn’t like the Eovaldi signing because of his track record for arm problems...

[TylerD]

I thought the Pearce signing made sense but I was unaware of the budget limitations at the time. I assume DD was aware of them.

 

I didn’t like the Eovaldi signing because of his track record for arm problems...

 

Was hard to be mad at any signings because we won the World Series and this is basically the team that did it for us. But I do agree about Eovaldi. He’s been out for quite some time now. How long will he last? And they keep saying he’s almost ready to return. I swear they have been saying that for the last month.

[notin]

Was hard to be mad at any signings because we won the World Series and this is basically the team that did it for us. But I do agree about Eovaldi. He’s been out for quite some time now. How long will he last? And they keep saying he’s almost ready to return. I swear they have been saying that for the last month.

 

It’s getting to the point where the announcement that he’s the new closer is the same lip service the Colts front office kept feeding their fans about the imminent return of Andrew Luck...

[OH FOY]

Forget about Pearce, let it go. It is what it is. Worry about the now. Beginning of year Moreland was getting big hits, when nobody was doing anything, hopefully he comes back and helps. Edited July 18, 2019 by OH FOY!

[Slasher9]

Reaction here to the Pearce signing was overwhelmingly positive at the time. You should have voiced your dissent on that thread, it would have made you look wise, now that Steve and Mitch are doing their duet on "American Idle".

In all fairness we are fans and the dude just was a big part in winning the WS (MVP). DD should not act like a fan.

No way no how that chunk of cash should have been used on anythybut RPing...

[OH FOY]

Sox are the one of the biggest analytical teams in baseball, they use every letter in alphabet, on Stats. Nobody is signed unless the Nerds say so.

[Kimmi]

I am surprised that you liked bringing back Pearce and Nunez.

 

Short term deals for bench/platoon players. I have no issue with either contract. Same thing with Moreland.

[Kimmi]

I have to disagree . An experienced G.M. thinking he could lose Kimbrel and Kelly from his bullpen without it making a difference is foolish. He needed to do something. To me it seems like he was complacent and overconfident. Flush with success and maybe a little smug .

 

We will have to disagree on this. I just have a different opinion on building a bullpen than most people have. Dombrowski replaced Kimbrel and Kelly. He just didn't replace them with the well known names.

[Kimmi]

The Yanks and Rays have used openers with bulk starters afterwards. The Sox haven’t done that yet, using traditional starters. So their pen numbers are true. The Rays and ours, not so much

 

Also, our starters were supposed to be our strength, carrying the load for the pen.

 

People can blame the pen as much as they want. They have been bad. But it starts with the rotation.

[Kimmi]

Does this mean we're done bashing Ben?

 

Ha. Perfect post.

 

#BringBenBack

[Kimmi]

Personally I think the only thing DD should have done differently this season was do more about the bullpen.

 

Most of the rest comes down to s*** happens.

 

If it was that easy to repeat, someone else would have done it this century. It's all been one and dones.

 

And we have 3 or 4 more titles than almost every other team this century. I'll take it.

 

This season is not on Dombrowski.

 

It's on the players not performing to their expectations and randomness. Maybe some on Cora.

 

As I said many times in my defense of Ben, when the pre-season projections, both analytic and non-analytic, agree that the Sox should be one of the top 2-3 teams in baseball, then the GM has done his job.

[Kimmi]

I think we have a great owner. He has brought us those 4 titles. He is driven to win. We have the highest payroll. I have no real complaints. If others want to complain that's their prerogative, but no one should tell me I'm not a good fan. I've paid my dues. I've been with this team since the late Sixties. I've been through hell, just like every other Sox fan who's been with them that long.

 

Since this ownership group took over, I have felt that going into every season, the team had a legitimate chance of making the playoffs. That's really all we can ask for as fans.

[Kimmi]

Sox are the one of the biggest analytical teams in baseball, they use every letter in alphabet, on Stats. Nobody is signed unless the Nerds say so.

 

Do you think the Nerds would suggest that Dombrowski sign Pearce based on the emotion of the WS?

 

The same type of thing was said when the Sox signed Panda, that they were fooled by his postseason performance.

 

Give the GMs some credit. They are smarter than that, even the non-analytic ones. The Nerds would definitely not be fooled by post season heroics.

 

Hmm. I wonder if Lucchino is still pulling strings from somewhere behind the curtains.

[moonslav59]

Do you think the Nerds would suggest that Dombrowski sign Pearce based on the emotion of the WS?

 

The same type of thing was said when the Sox signed Panda, that they were fooled by his postseason performance.

 

Give the GMs some credit. They are smarter than that, even the non-analytic ones. The Nerds would definitely not be fooled by post season heroics.

 

Hmm. I wonder if Lucchino is still pulling strings from somewhere behind the curtains.

 

Pearce had some very good regular season numbers over the prior 2-3 regular seasons. I don't think the post season numbers were the only reason DD decided to sign him.

[dgalehouse]

I strongly felt that D.D. was wrong to pretty much ignore the bullpen and spend the money elsewhere . I have seen nothing since that changes my mind on that . However , spilled milk is spilled milk . The season is not over . I think making Eovaldi the closer , while it may seem like desperation to some , is the single best thing we can do to turn this around. If it works , it will not only provide a closer , but it should help the rest of the bullpen as well . The ripple effect may even help the starters . Eovaldi as closer gives us our best shot at winning. Let's get started with it .

[moonslav59]

There was simply NO REASON....NONE to extend Sale when DD extended him and out to 2024 no less for a guy with a rep now for punking out at the end of seasons. That was a lotta' money to pay for a starter under those circumstances when DD really did not have to do it. I do not believe as some have commented that Sale was injured and the Sox knew it. That simply does not make sense. That he is wearing down is fairly obvious. Wear is not injury and wear has never been considered injury. Tissue shredding and bone crumbling and tendons snapping....that is injury. We would have preferred that DD wait and not extend Sale when he did and if we would not have preferred that we are out of our minds.

 

As for Eovaldi, that is another starting pitcher overpay. I would be more specific in my comments about DD than some have been here. Where he really overpays IMO is starting pitching and he has done that now twice in the same year....Sale and Eovaldi, both of whom are worrisome expenditures into a John Henry that I suspect is getting leery of simply allowing DD free access to his bank account. Then of course there is that annoying tendency of DD's of simply throwing stuff for the pen against the wall to see what sticks. That simply flies in the face of where this game has been going for at least 10 years now. I don't like the way this game is going but if I had the purse strings for player personnel what I don't like becomes irrelevant in the face of an obvious trend. DD seems to be fighting the trend which is IMO an untenable position.

 

I have no issues with the Price deal and JD was fine but not better than fine. Price was a gamble at his age for that kind of cash and term. But the gamble has paid off in a championship and its late enough in his deal that if he folds like a cheap suit....that is sort of how these long term deals work out anyway. I have no issues with JD either except now JD is making noise about wanting to be on firmer footing with the Sox in a more solid deal than he has. NO WAY!!!! JD has trouble hitting breaking stuff right into a cadre of MLB pitchers starting to throw buckets of breaking stuff at him. IMO the hitters that are really thriving now are those that take advantage of the fact that nobody pitches inside effectively anymore. Devers dives across the batters box. So does X. Bellinger by God sets up with his elbow hanging over the inner third of the plate. JD is not going to change what he does. He is a process hitter that lives off of weak cheese. He has his process. He is not going to deviate. NO WAY do I rewrite JD's deal and if he wants to opt out.....thanks for the 2018 effort JD.

 

X has been a real treasure here. But I think the player himself is as responsible as DD for that one. X must have been sending very favorable vibes and his response to just having signed a big money, long term deal is so singularly rare in this day and age that the Sox must have felt very comfortable with that deal going into it. They live with the player and must have known his character is as it projects and frankly even from the outside looking in, if any young Sox player looked like the kind of guy you would do this for even before the deal was done, its X by a country mile.

 

Pearce was particularly senseless. Hated it from the minute I heard it. Moreland was a bit of a mystery as well but Pearce was just flat out bad and smelled bad right from the start.

 

I don't think DD will be kept past his 2020 contract expiration. Might even go before then as its tough to have a Pres of baseball ops that is a lame duck.

 

I thought the Sale contract was a great deal for the Sox, despite signs of decline. Most of the great pitchers have a little meltdown between 29-31 and then have some very good years for 2-4 years afterwards. I still expect Sale will earn his keep.

 

I could be wrong: he could become the next King Felix, but I doubt it.

 

I know many said it was a mistake before this year started, and right now, you look right, but his contract has just begun.

 

Almost everyone, but me, loved the Moreland signing and re-signing. His fragility led to the trade and re-signing or Pearce. That was a mistake that led to the second mistake (needing to sign Pearce as insurance).

 

The Nunez re-signing was a mistake. He was clearly physically breaking down. His injuries and decline led us to trade Buttrey for Kinsler.

 

Eovaldi's playoff heroics were a big part of his re-signing, but those moments rallied the team, and losing his clubhouse presence would have been the first excuse used had we sucked this year with some other starter signed instead of him. It was an overpay, but we did need a solid SP'er, and we were not the only ones trying to sign him. The astute talent seeker, Astros, wanted him badly. Yes, it was a mistake (at least for 2019).

 

As we all know, free agent signings are more busts or negative than gains. Expecting DD to ace every signing is expecting too much.

 

We do NOT have an unlimited budget, despite what many people seem to think. DD spent to the limit to get us the ring in 2018. To "continue improving every year" without a farm left us to the point where we had about 5-6 holes and precious few dollars to fill them all. Had we known Chavis would do what he's done, maybe we wouldn't have signed Pearce, but then again, maybe we'd have spent that money on Cody Allen or David Robertson or one of several other RP'er FA flops.

 

In hindsight, maybe we sign Ottavino or Morton and we'd be better off, now, but it is the previous high spending and emptying the farm that got us to last winter's pickle, and DD had to be perfect with his signings to keep us as a top contender.

 

 

[moonslav59]

I strongly felt that D.D. was wrong to pretty much ignore the bullpen and spend the money elsewhere . I have seen nothing since that changes my mind on that . However , spilled milk is spilled milk . The season is not over . I think making Eovaldi the closer , while it may seem like desperation to some , is the single best thing we can do to turn this around. If it works , it will not only provide a closer , but it should help the rest of the bullpen as well . The ripple effect may even help the starters . Eovaldi as closer gives us our best shot at winning. Let's get started with it .

 

You were definitely the leader in this position from day one, and it is certainly true that our pen was and still is weak. Word was out that we were shopping for Robertson. Signing him would have led to the same fate as now. Cody Allen was mentioned by several posters, including myself, as a cheaper option. That would have been a huge mistake.

 

Some of us felt that Ottavino was the best choice of the higher bracket FA signings, and having him now would certainly be a big plus over Eovaldi, but look at how crappy our rotation has been. Clearly our rotation would have been a big area of need right now had we signed Ottavino instead of Eovaldi.

 

Had we signed Ottavino & Morton, we'd be over the max line. Had we done that and Chavis flopped, we'd have Holt at 1B everyday and Nunez at 2B everyday.

 

In hindsight we should have signed one of Morton or Ottavino, but we might not have really been that much better off had a couple other factors not worked.

 

I'm not defending DD. He got us to where we are today, but he also got us to where we were last year, and that was the plan all along. Go for broke and deal with the fall-out later.

 

[dgalehouse]

You were definitely the leader in this position from day one, and it is certainly true that our pen was and still is weak. Word was out that we were shopping for Robertson. Signing him would have led to the same fate as now. Cody Allen was mentioned by several posters, including myself, as a cheaper option. That would have been a huge mistake.

 

Some of us felt that Ottavino was the best choice of the higher bracket FA signings, and having him now would certainly be a big plus over Eovaldi, but look at how crappy our rotation has been. Clearly our rotation would have been a big area of need right now had we signed Ottavino instead of Eovaldi.

 

Had we signed Ottavino & Morton, we'd be over the max line. Had we done that and Chavis flopped, we'd have Holt at 1B everyday and Nunez at 2B everyday.

 

In hindsight we should have signed one of Morton or Ottavino, but we might not have really been that much better off had a couple other factors not worked.

 

I'm not defending DD. He got us to where we are today, but he also got us to where we were last year, and that was the plan all along. Go for broke and deal with the fall-out later.

 

I don't think the plan was to win last year and not make the playoffs this year . I hope the plan was to win again this year .

[notin]

Do you think the Nerds would suggest that Dombrowski sign Pearce based on the emotion of the WS?

 

The same type of thing was said when the Sox signed Panda, that they were fooled by his postseason performance.

 

Give the GMs some credit. They are smarter than that, even the non-analytic ones. The Nerds would definitely not be fooled by post season heroics.

 

Hmm. I wonder if Lucchino is still pulling strings from somewhere behind the curtains.

 

I think fans are the only ones who react to postseason numbers. If GMs did it, Panda would never have been allowed to leave San Francisco...

[moonslav59]

I don't think the plan was to win last year and not make the playoffs this year . I hope the plan was to win again this year .

 

The plan included being maxed out on the budget and emptied of farm hands available by 2019. Yes, I think we thought we'd still be competitive, but we knew we did not have enough money to "keep getting better". We didn't even stay even. We brought back Eovaldi and Pearce but lost Kimbrel and Kelly. The "plan" forced us into having to choose whicj holes to fill and which holes to roll the dice with.

[S5Dewey]

The plan included being maxed out on the budget and emptied of farm hands available by 2019. Yes, I think we thought we'd still be competitive, but we knew we did not have enough money to "keep getting better". We didn't even stay even. We brought back Eovaldi and Pearce but lost Kimbrel and Kelly. The "plan" forced us into having to choose whicj holes to fill and which holes to roll the dice with.

 

The question is how much better would we be with Kimbrel and Kelly. Most of that falls to Kelly since this team is usually behind going into the 9th so Kimbrel wouldn't be getting save opp's. Kelly seems to have turned the corner some out in LA now but I question whether his presence so far would have made a big difference.

 

The problem children are Price and Porcillo. If they were performing as expected it's possible that Kimbrel would be getting more save opp's as our pen wouldn't be as overtaxed and maybe not as bad.