The Pen

[Bellhorn04]

Nobody should be worried about Mookie. I don't think anyone is . I was just pointing out the folly of small sample sizes . And the ever present hypocrisy . And the idea of relievers being a crapshoot is a popular misconception. . Some are very consistent. Just like starters . Or anybody else .

 

Generally speaking, relievers are more of a crapshoot than starters, because most relievers are failed starters.

[sk7326]

Nobody should be worried about Mookie. I don't think anyone is . I was just pointing out the folly of small sample sizes . And the ever present hypocrisy . And the idea of relievers being a crapshoot is a popular misconception. . Some are very consistent. Just like starters . Or anybody else .

 

They are a crapshoot - it's why teams have so much turnover there. Now there are relievers who are reliable - but it's a relatively small number. I mean Kimbrel had a good season in spots last year - but late last year he was flat out not good. Since relievers pitch in short stretches often in higher leverage spots, small changes can lead to very volatile results.

[dgalehouse]

They are a crapshoot - it's why teams have so much turnover there. Now there are relievers who are reliable - but it's a relatively small number. I mean Kimbrel had a good season in spots last year - but late last year he was flat out not good. Since relievers pitch in short stretches often in higher leverage spots, small changes can lead to very volatile results.

 

Kimbrel has been consistently outstanding for nine years . Most of the top relievers are as well . Most of the top starters too . But many of the other starters are very inconsistent. Some don't last as starters and become inconsistent relievers . Some are just barely consistent enough to remain in the rotation for a while . The players who are consistently good become known as stars . Back to Kimbrel ; he was 5 - 1 , with 42 saves and a 2.74 ERA in what was considered a " bad " year . That is 47 wins that he was directly involved in . A lot of productivity to make up . Let's just hope our " crapshoot " rolls enough sevens to make it up this season .

[Slasher9]

. That is 47 wins that he was directly involved in . A lot of productivity to make up . Let's just hope our " crapshoot " rolls enough sevens to make it up this season .

 

some of those 5 wins were because he blew the save and the team got him off the hook.

how many of the "47 wins that he was directly involved in" would turn into L's by a mere mortal closer? more than 8?

i use 8 because that is how many games we won the division by + we coasted in September.

i could have pitched the same innings in the postseason and had the same result as CK.

[dgalehouse]

Three years of Kimbrel . Three A.L. East titles . Coincidence ? Maybe . Maybe any jabroni would have done as well . Closing games is overrated . One thing for sure ; if we don't win it this year , folks will surely find some other reason for it . It won't be the bullpen. You can count on that .

[moonslav59]

Three years of Kimbrel . Three A.L. East titles . Coincidence ? Maybe . Maybe any jabroni would have done as well . Closing games is overrated . One thing for sure ; if we don't win it this year , folks will surely find some other reason for it . It won't be the bullpen. You can count on that .

 

We also made a major contribution to the rotation 3 years ago.

 

GS'd in 2015

32 Miley

28 Porcello

25 Kelly

21 ERod

18 Buchholz

11 Owens

9 Masterson

9 Wright

9 RHill,Breslow, Barnes & Johnson

 

Only Porcello & ERod are still in our rotation or have been the last 3 years in a significant way.

 

Additions to the rotation:

2016: Price and Pom (mid season)

2017: Sale, Fister (Velazquez)

2018: Eovaldi (mid season)

 

I think the 3 in red helped more than Kimbrel, but your point is still a good one.

 

[notin]

They are a crapshoot - it's why teams have so much turnover there. Now there are relievers who are reliable - but it's a relatively small number. I mean Kimbrel had a good season in spots last year - but late last year he was flat out not good. Since relievers pitch in short stretches often in higher leverage spots, small changes can lead to very volatile results.

 

 

But to me, the notion that relievers are inconsistent pitchers is backwards. The truth is, inconsistent pitchers are relievers...

[notin]

Three years of Kimbrel . Three A.L. East titles . Coincidence ? Maybe . Maybe any jabroni would have done as well . Closing games is overrated . One thing for sure ; if we don't win it this year , folks will surely find some other reason for it . It won't be the bullpen. You can count on that .

 

It might be the bullpen. It might even be the closer. But if there are issues in the bullpen, it’s more likely to be the guys throwing the 450 non-closing innings than the guy throwing to 60-ish closing ones. But that doesn’t mean the closer role isn’t overrated and overvalued.

 

But I would definitely not attribute 3 AL East titles to Kimbrel with no mention that the Sox also brought Price in at the same time and Sale one year later...

[Bellhorn04]

I'll say this: I wasn't expecting that on February 8 we wouldn't even have any real rumors about Kimbrel being pursued by any team.

[Slasher9]

Three years of Kimbrel . Three A.L. East titles . Coincidence ? Maybe . Maybe any jabroni would have done as well . Closing games is overrated . One thing for sure ; if we don't win it this year , folks will surely find some other reason for it . It won't be the bullpen. You can count on that .

 

and of those 3 years the one that we actually had the parade was his worst postseason.....

over rated.

thanks CK. enjoy your future seasons elsewhere.....

[dgalehouse]

We also made a major contribution to the rotation 3 years ago.

 

GS'd in 2015

32 Miley

28 Porcello

25 Kelly

21 ERod

18 Buchholz

11 Owens

9 Masterson

9 Wright

9 RHill,Breslow, Barnes & Johnson

 

Only Porcello & ERod are still in our rotation or have been the last 3 years in a significant way.

 

Additions to the rotation:

2016: Price and Pom (mid season)

2017: Sale, Fister (Velazquez)

2018: Eovaldi (mid season)

 

I think the 3 in red helped more than Kimbrel, but your point is still a good one.

 

 

No question it takes a complete, well balanced team to win this division. Sale , Price and Eovaldi were terrific additions . ( Note that the more fickle fans will be ready to turn on Price should he stumble at all ) . Please remember that , between the three of them , they have a total of four complete games for Boston. The bullpen is always important and never more so than in today's game. And , hopefully the last time I repeat this , it is not all about Kimbrel. The Sox have passed on every other reasonably viable alternative reliever as well . Now , if the remaining bullpen crew gets the job done this season and we win the division again , I will be the first to say that everything was done correctly.

[Maxbialystock]

and of those 3 years the one that we actually had the parade was his worst postseason.....

over rated.

thanks CK. enjoy your future seasons elsewhere.....

 

I really like that. The parade happened despite Kimbrel's worst postseason--that speak volumes and just maybe also explains why nobody is meeting his agent's absurd demands.

 

I also like notin's comment that those other innings in relief are just as important as the last one. That also connects to why teams want great bullpens so that they can tell their starters, "just get us to the 7th inning (or the 6th)." Or just say the bullpen will be important for a minimum of 450 innings because it's a really long season.

[Bellhorn04]

I really like that. The parade happened despite Kimbrel's worst postseason--that speak volumes and just maybe also explains why nobody is meeting his agent's absurd demands.

 

I don't think that's the big reason. Lots of very good players have had very bad postseasons.

[Bellhorn04]

It might be the bullpen. It might even be the closer. But if there are issues in the bullpen, it’s more likely to be the guys throwing the 450 non-closing innings than the guy throwing to 60-ish closing ones. But that doesn’t mean the closer role isn’t overrated and overvalued.

 

The closer role is undoubtedly overrated and overvalued.

 

And yet there is a certain fear factor about being a closer, I think, that makes it a little different.

 

Everyone remembers the big blown saves, even when it was one of the best closers.

 

Everyone remembers Eck in 1988 (and a lot remember 1992 as well).

 

Everyone remembers Mo in 2001 and 2004.

 

Sox fans remember Papelbon in 2009 and 2011.

 

And so on.

[notin]

I'll say this: I wasn't expecting that on February 8 we wouldn't even have any real rumors about Kimbrel being pursued by any team.

 

Kimbrel is going to be Consolation Prize B for one of the teams budgeting for Harper and Machado.

[sk7326]

Kimbrel is going to be Consolation Prize B for one of the teams budgeting for Harper and Machado.

 

So, I can have a 26 year old superstar, or a 29 year old reliever who can't throw strikes anymore. Hmmmmm.

[notin]

No question it takes a complete, well balanced team to win this division. Sale , Price and Eovaldi were terrific additions . ( Note that the more fickle fans will be ready to turn on Price should he stumble at all ) . Please remember that , between the three of them , they have a total of four complete games for Boston. The bullpen is always important and never more so than in today's game. And , hopefully the last time I repeat this , it is not all about Kimbrel. The Sox have passed on every other reasonably viable alternative reliever as well . Now , if the remaining bullpen crew gets the job done this season and we win the division again , I will be the first to say that everything was done correctly.

 

 

Absolutely true.

 

Last year for the Sox, the bullpen threw 587 innings, of which Kimbrel only pitched 62.

 

I have faith that Barnes can handle the closer role; he has improved every year and he is certainly capoable lready. But it's the handling of the other 525 IP that bother me. I lack the faith in Braiser that many have. (He was in Japan for a reason, folks.) Hembree is OK. Thornburg and Smith need to recover. Workman is about the bottom of acceptability. Johnson is barely a major leaguer.

 

On the bright side, apparently there is something to this Colten Brewer fellow. Domingo Tapia had one of the most dominant pitches in the minors not too long ago. Meijia was a former Met top prospect and good closer. And Lakins, Feltman and Poyner are available.

 

And there are still penty of free agent pitchers besides Kimbrel. Nick Vincent, Aaron Loup, Tyler Clippard, Jake Diekman, and Ryan Madson would all be potential improvements for the Sox...

Edited February 9, 2019 by notin

[notin]

So, I can have a 26 year old superstar, or a 29 year old reliever who can't throw strikes anymore. Hmmmmm.

 

The bottom line is, a bunch of teams have publicly declared interest in Machado and/or Harper, which tells their fan base they are willing to spend. As only two at most can land Harper and/or Machado, teams will look at Keuchel and/or Kimbrel. At some point, if you are the White Sox or Padres or Phillies, you need something like this to save your off-season. Keuchel more so than Kimbrel....

[sk7326]

The bottom line is, a bunch of teams have publicly declared interest in Machado and/or Harper, which tells their fan base they are willing to spend. As only two at most can land Harper and/or Machado, teams will look at Keuchel and/or Kimbrel. At some point, if you are the White Sox or Padres or Phillies, you need something like this to save your off-season. Keuchel more so than Kimbrel....

 

We'll see what happens. The gap between Keuchel and Kimbrel as far as offseason prizes to go is vast.

[notin]

We'll see what happens. The gap between Keuchel and Kimbrel as far as offseason prizes to go is vast.

 

 

Which is why Kimbrel was Consolation Prize B...

[sk7326]

Which is why Kimbrel was Consolation Prize B...

 

I wouldn't even go that far - you can get much more bang for reliever pitcher buck elsewhere.

[Kimmi]

I am certainly not worried about Betts. And I am not really worried about the pen yet either because I think RPers are a crapshoot. You never know from year to year who will perform, generally, and who will not. Who would have thought that Brasier would have the year he had? Also, I don't think the pen is complete yet. DD still has a trick or two up his sleeve IMO.

 

I agree with this post.

[notin]

I wouldn't even go that far - you can get much more bang for reliever pitcher buck elsewhere.

 

But not as much PR.

 

Remember what this site was like when we acquired Kimbrel?

[Kimmi]

I wouldn't even go that far - you can get much more bang for reliever pitcher buck elsewhere.

 

^^This.

[Kimmi]

But not as much PR.

 

Remember what this site was like when we acquired Kimbrel?

 

Yes, but much of it could be negative PR for signing a player to a bad contract.

[Behindenemylines]

The Sox have wons four championships in 15 years with four different closers. The Sox closer come mid season may not even be on the roster now. The next time you think that DD needs to resign Kimbrel yesterday remember some of last years post season stress he put us through. The Sox won despite him.

[notin]

Yes, but much of it could be negative PR for signing a player to a bad contract.

 

Well, it was a trade, not a signing.

 

But a lot of people were excited, like really excited. Way too excited considering the Sox were still a last place team whose best starter was Rick Porcello....

[Kimmi]

Well, it was a trade, not a signing.

 

But a lot of people were excited, like really excited. Way too excited considering the Sox were still a last place team whose best starter was Rick Porcello....

 

I am talking about negative PR for bad contracts (or trades) in general, not just for Kimbrel.

 

Yes, we were excited about having Kimbrel on the team, myself included. Being excited about having a player on the team does not mean the same thing as liking or agreeing with the contract or the trade. Price is another player who falls into that category for me.

[Bellhorn04]

Well, it was a trade, not a signing.

 

But a lot of people were excited, like really excited. Way too excited considering the Sox were still a last place team whose best starter was Rick Porcello....

 

This still bothers you?

[notin]

This still bothers you?

 

Trying to make a point about the PR aspect of a Kimbrel signing for one of the Machado/Harpers losers....