The Pen

[notin]

That may be an excellent point, one I hadn't thought of. A few days ago I speculated that MLB may have gone to the NCAA ball with "tighter" (read: flatter) threads and within a day or so Manfred confirmed that the 2019 baseball has the same characteristics as the NCAA ball.

I say I hadn't thought of it because my post said that the flatter seams would reduce wind resistance making the ball go farther but another thing it does it making it harder for the pitcher to grip.

 

I'd like to hear what pitchers have to say about this.

 

Flatter threads also make it difficult for a pitch to break, since it’s the change in air flow created by the threads that causes break in the first place...

[jung]

Flatter threads also make it difficult for a pitch to break, since it’s the change in air flow created by the threads that causes break in the first place...

 

They seem to be getting enough grip, spin/rotation to throw a "decent" Curve. But if you really want an eye opener, go back and find video on any of the good and great 60's pitchers and take a look at those Curveballs. If you really really want a shocker, view some video of Sandy's Curve. Yes, Sandy was one of the greatest pitchers certainly of his era, but many of the Curves of that era were much like Sandy's. Its just that it will be easy to find video of Sandy throwing a Curve and if you are going to see something relevant to the question, you would do just as well to let yourself get hit over the head with it.

 

I think the Slider is likely to go away for awhile with the exception of Pitchers that can throw one that breaks across the plate and down like Sale's Slider. For most pitchers the pitch just does not break enough even when thrown decent and they are just rolling up to the plate now either right over the heart or entirely off the plate. Many of the pitchers throwing it now are either wild in the strike zone or wild out of it. One is instant death. The other is death by a thousand cuts.

[Bellhorn04]

That may be an excellent point, one I hadn't thought of. A few days ago I speculated that MLB may have gone to the NCAA ball with "tighter" (read: flatter) threads and within a day or so Manfred confirmed that the 2019 baseball has the same characteristics as the NCAA ball.

I say I hadn't thought of it because my post said that the flatter seams would reduce wind resistance making the ball go farther but another thing it does it making it harder for the pitcher to grip.

 

I'd like to hear what pitchers have to say about this.

 

I think it was Verlander who first complained that the balls were different. That was a while back now, it might have been 2017.

[jacksonianmarch]

I find it really strange that Cora had Hembree ready and saw Workman struggle in the 8th. Why burn him for another day when he clearly didn’t have it. Workman tried to blow the game but Vlad couldn’t hit a hanger and Cora got lucky. If you needed Workman tonight, he’s now unavailable. Not the smartest move

[Bellhorn04]

They seem to be getting enough grip, spin/rotation to throw a "decent" Curve. But if you really want an eye opener, go back and find video on any of the good and great 60's pitchers and take a look at those Curveballs. If you really really want a shocker, view some video of Sandy's Curve. Yes, Sandy was one of the greatest pitchers certainly of his era, but many of the Curves of that era were much like Sandy's. Its just that it will be easy to find video of Sandy throwing a Curve and if you are going to see something relevant to the question, you would do just as well to let yourself get hit over the head with it.

 

For a more recent example, a guy who could throw an amazing curveball when he was at his best was Josh Beckett.

[notin]

For a more recent example, a guy who could throw an amazing curveball when he was at his best was Josh Beckett.

 

Or back a little further, Bert Blyleven...

[Bellhorn04]

I find it really strange that Cora had Hembree ready and saw Workman struggle in the 8th. Why burn him for another day when he clearly didn’t have it. Workman tried to blow the game but Vlad couldn’t hit a hanger and Cora got lucky. If you needed Workman tonight, he’s now unavailable. Not the smartest move

 

a. Hembree hasn't pitched in a real game since June 10 so you can understand a little trepidation making that his welcome back.

b. Our pen is Russian Roulette no matter what you do.

[jacksonianmarch]

Players today are far better at hitting the curve than they were decades ago, I know you guys don’t like sliders, but I wonder if any of you have actually faced a really good one. A great curve in the strike zone can be hit out. A great slider in the zone (down and away or in) is not hittable. A slider looks like a fastball out of the hand. A curve is easy to pick up. Watch a hitter take a rip at a slider vs a curve. Guys trying to hit a curve have no issue with the lateral movement, they’re trying to judge the bottom. A hanging curve is a homerun by the hitters design. With the slider, you read and react and your reaction is almost always behind where it will be. This is why a bad slider gets hit hard because the hitter swings at a slider as if it’s a hanger. Don’t hang it, and it’s unhittable. The bat placement will always be behind the expected break.

 

Sliders ended my baseball career. My old man had a great curveball, so I crushed those. I don’t care how hard you threw, I could hit it. I couldn’t react to a slider and became an easy out by the time the word got out. From college World Series all star to benched

[jung]

Players today are far better at hitting the curve than they were decades ago, I know you guys don’t like sliders, but I wonder if any of you have actually faced a really good one. A great curve in the strike zone can be hit out. A great slider in the zone (down and away or in) is not hittable. A slider looks like a fastball out of the hand. A curve is easy to pick up. Watch a hitter take a rip at a slider vs a curve. Guys trying to hit a curve have no issue with the lateral movement, they’re trying to judge the bottom. A hanging curve is a homerun by the hitters design. With the slider, you read and react and your reaction is almost always behind where it will be. This is why a bad slider gets hit hard because the hitter swings at a slider as if it’s a hanger. Don’t hang it, and it’s unhittable. The bat placement will always be behind the expected break.

 

Sliders ended my baseball career. My old man had a great curveball, so I crushed those. I don’t care how hard you threw, I could hit it. I couldn’t react to a slider and became an easy out by the time the word got out. From college World Series all star to benched

 

All true...however the number of good Slider's you see now are coming from a mere handful of pitchers. Most of these chumps are either rolling them up to the plate, right down main st and the lack of late break on what used to be considered a good slider is simply not there. I am officially naming these chump Sliders a Chavis BECAUSE THAT IS THE ONLY PITCH HE CAN HIT! The norm now is too many Sliders that are just rolling up to the plate right down main st (A CHAVIS) or thrown so far off the plate that they don't induce a swing of any kind. In other words pitchers are throwing them wild in the strike zone or wild off the plate more often than not now. Don't know if they can no longer grip them to throw them because of the lowered seams or if what was a late breaking pitch at its best is not late breaking any longer because of the lowered seems or if this generation of pitchers just performs nominally worse than in the past. My guess is all three.

 

I am guessing all three because the nominal performance of MLB pitching has been in decline for longer than the 2016 rocket ship baseballs started making their appearance. But surely now going through at least three editions of the rocket ship, 2016, 2018 and now the rocket ship of rocket ships, the 2019 ball has exacerbated the situation to an absurd extreme.

Edited July 5, 2019 by jung

[Kimmi]

It's a blown save, yes, but let's not forget that our starter went 2.1 IP allowing 3 ERs, and our pen went 7.2 IP allowing 4 runs.

 

We had to go to Brewer in the 3rd inning. After Brewer, our RP'ers went 5 IP allowing 1 run, but that one run was the blown save. I just don't see that as the focal point of the game, but it always seems to feel like it, right?

 

Thank you for this post.

 

Through 86 games, which does not include last night's game, the Sox starters have thrown 49.2 fewer innings than they did at the same point last season. Also, their collective ERA is up 0.85.

 

The 2019 BP has thrown 54.2 more innings than they did at the same point last year. (Stats courtesy of Boston Sports Info)

 

Like you, I agree with everyone that the pen needs some help. However, the root of the problem is with the starting rotation. The failure on the starters' parts has a huge trickle down effect on the relievers. You just can't expect your pen to throw that many innings without having a negative impact, especially when the pen was built on the premise that the rotation would be a strong one.

[Kimmi]

I find it really strange that Cora had Hembree ready and saw Workman struggle in the 8th. Why burn him for another day when he clearly didn’t have it. Workman tried to blow the game but Vlad couldn’t hit a hanger and Cora got lucky. If you needed Workman tonight, he’s now unavailable. Not the smartest move

 

I think it has a lot to do with Hembree just being reinstated from the IL. That's a tough situation to throw someone into when he hasn't pitched for a while.

 

Sadly, Workman, like Ottavino, is an implosion waiting to happen. He is far out pitching his peripherals.

[S5Dewey]

I think it has a lot to do with Hembree just being reinstated from the IL. That's a tough situation to throw someone into when he hasn't pitched for a while.

Of course you're right! Can you imagine the outrage if Hembree had come in and given up a HR? "WTF was Cora doing??? Hembree hadn't pitched in a month and Cora brings him into one of the highest leverage situations???!!! What a dumb thing to do!!"

 

Nothing makes a manager look better than having his players succeed but Cora's now at a point where even when he succeeds he's second-guessed. Ugh.

[Bellhorn04]

Of course you're right! Can you imagine the outrage if Hembree had come in and given up a HR? "WTF was Cora doing??? Hembree hadn't pitched in a month and Cora brings him into one of the highest leverage situations???!!! What a dumb thing to do!!"

 

Nothing makes a manager look better than having his players succeed but Cora's now at a point where even when he succeeds he's second-guessed. Ugh.

 

Very true Dewey.

[Kimmi]

Of course you're right! Can you imagine the outrage if Hembree had come in and given up a HR? "WTF was Cora doing??? Hembree hadn't pitched in a month and Cora brings him into one of the highest leverage situations???!!! What a dumb thing to do!!"

 

Nothing makes a manager look better than having his players succeed but Cora's now at a point where even when he succeeds he's second-guessed. Ugh.

 

Haha. So true.

[moonslav59]

That may be an excellent point, one I hadn't thought of. A few days ago I speculated that MLB may have gone to the NCAA ball with "tighter" (read: flatter) threads and within a day or so Manfred confirmed that the 2019 baseball has the same characteristics as the NCAA ball.

I say I hadn't thought of it because my post said that the flatter seams would reduce wind resistance making the ball go farther but another thing it does it making it harder for the pitcher to grip.

 

I'd like to hear what pitchers have to say about this.

 

...and flatter seams makes for less break on breaking ball pitches.

[moonslav59]

Thank you for this post.

 

Through 86 games, which does not include last night's game, the Sox starters have thrown 49.2 fewer innings than they did at the same point last season. Also, their collective ERA is up 0.85.

 

The 2019 BP has thrown 54.2 more innings than they did at the same point last year. (Stats courtesy of Boston Sports Info)

 

Like you, I agree with everyone that the pen needs some help. However, the root of the problem is with the starting rotation. The failure on the starters' parts has a huge trickle down effect on the relievers. You just can't expect your pen to throw that many innings without having a negative impact, especially when the pen was built on the premise that the rotation would be a strong one.

 

Yes, and we have to just hope and pray our starters get their act together. We can't afford to try and fix the rotation by throwing more money at it at the trade deadline.

 

Our pen can use some outside help, and with a limited budget and limited trading chips, all in for the pen is my position.

 

BTW, Updated Starter vs Pen Numbers:

 

By Wins and Losses Responsibility Game by Game:

Starters 17-23 (-6)

Relievers 28-16 (+12)

 

Alternative Scoring System (+2, +1, 0, -1, -2 given for each game)

SP +20

RP +42

 

[Kimmi]

Yes, and we have to just hope and pray our starters get their act together. We can't afford to try and fix the rotation by throwing more money at it at the trade deadline.

 

Our pen can use some outside help, and with a limited budget and limited trading chips, all in for the pen is my position.

 

BTW, Updated Starter vs Pen Numbers:

 

By Wins and Losses Responsibility Game by Game:

Starters 17-23 (-6)

Relievers 28-16 (+12)

 

Alternative Scoring System (+2, +1, 0, -1, -2 given for each game)

SP +20

RP +42

 

 

If Eovaldi is going to pitch out of the pen, I'm wondering if the Sox will look for a 5th starter instead. I have no idea what's out there and for what price.

 

The bottom line is that unless the starters get it together, it won't make much difference adding an arm or two to the pen.

[moonslav59]

If Eovaldi is going to pitch out of the pen, I'm wondering if the Sox will look for a 5th starter instead. I have no idea what's out there and for what price.

 

The bottom line is that unless the starters get it together, it won't make much difference adding an arm or two to the pen.

 

Even with Eovaldi and Hembree back and in the pen, I still think we need pen help more. Walden is a complete guess at this point. Barnes is in a horrible funk. Brasier has shown signs of life, but is still a huge question mark. Even recent successes like Workman and Brewer are showing signs of inconsistency.

 

I don't really have total confidence in a single pen arm, right now. Not one.

 

While it is true, our 5th starters have been taken from the pen and often go just 2-3 innings, we've gone with 8 relievers all year (rare), actually 9, if you count our 5th starter as a RP'er.

 

With 8 or 9 RP'er, there's room for one more solid pen arm from outside the system, preferably a closer or top set up man:

 

_____ or Eovadi (closer)

Eovaldi or _____ (set-up/closer)

Workman

Barnes

Hembree

Brewer

Brasier

Wright

Velazquez (5th starter)

AAA: Walden/Johnson(IL and out of options)/Taylor

[a700hitter]

If Eovaldi is going to pitch out of the pen, I'm wondering if the Sox will look for a 5th starter instead. I have no idea what's out there and for what price.

 

The bottom line is that unless the starters get it together, it won't make much difference adding an arm or two to the pen.

They are reportedly interested in Boyd, Wheeler and Roark.

 

MLB Trade Rumors and Signings

WWW.MLB.COM

---

The 2024 MLB Trade Deadline was July 30 at 6 p.m. ET. - Tracking every Trade Deadline deal

[FredLynn]

They are reportedly interested in Boyd, Wheeler and Roark.

 

MLB Trade Rumors and Signings

WWW.MLB.COM

---

The 2024 MLB Trade Deadline was July 30 at 6 p.m. ET. - Tracking every Trade Deadline deal

 

I would be shocked if JH allows DD to get one of those guys, no matter the cost. None of them are going to fix the current pitching problems. None of them are going to fix the fact that Chris Sale has three wins so far. The talent is there to make a run at a playoff spot. If they don't start playing up to their ability no reasonable external help is going to matter.

[jacksonianmarch]

On the slider front, where pitchers are getting into trouble is that they’re throwing two different types of sliders. They’re throwing a “get me over” slider, which is essentially a hanger by design to get a strike. More using it as an off speed pitch rather than an actual slider. Then they have the sharper one when they need it. It’s VERY hard to be able to command and repeat both. So you’re seeing a lot of sliders hung. Pitchers had to pitch backwards because they cannot locate their fastballs. Guys get to the bigs with big velocity, but they sell control for that velocity and now have trouble hitting spots with it. So they rely on deception and velocity rather than command.

[moonslav59]

They are reportedly interested in Boyd, Wheeler and Roark.

 

MLB Trade Rumors and Signings

WWW.MLB.COM

---

The 2024 MLB Trade Deadline was July 30 at 6 p.m. ET. - Tracking every Trade Deadline deal

 

All are making money that, when pro-rated, would not put us over the max line.

 

The question is, how much more will or can DD deplete our farm to get someone that may not make a difference?

[FredLynn]

All are making money that, when pro-rated, would not put us over the max line.

 

The question is, how much more will or can DD deplete our farm to get someone that may not make a difference?

 

None of them is going to get Sale more wins. Or get Porcello's ERA under 5 (its 5.07 right now). Or get ERod's ERA down to something reasonable (4.79 right now). Or get Barnes to perform in clutch situations. Etc Etc. The talent is there to make it happen. Its up to the current players to do their jobs. Without that no reasonable injection of talent is going to fix this team. If I am JH, that is exactly what I am thinking.

[a700hitter]

All are making money that, when pro-rated, would not put us over the max line.

 

The question is, how much more will or can DD deplete our farm to get someone that may not make a difference?

I found out that NCAA rules have just recently become more strict about the contact that they can make with HS kids to recruit them. In the meantime, professional teams and scouts have almost no limitations on the ways that they can woo a HS kid. This could hurt college recruiting and result in deeper drafts of HS talent as kids drafted in later rounds might be more likely to sign than go to college. Also, the pro teams will put tuition money in 529 plans for them so that they can get an education if they wash out of baseball. I am not too concerned about emptying more talent from the farm as I think there will be more coming in.

[Bellhorn04]

None of them is going to get Sale more wins. Or get Porcello's ERA under 5 (its 5.07 right now). Or get ERod's ERA down to something reasonable (4.79 right now). Or get Barnes to perform in clutch situations. Etc Etc. The talent is there to make it happen. Its up to the current players to do their jobs. Without that no reasonable injection of talent is going to fix this team. If I am JH, that is exactly what I am thinking.

 

Getting a halfway reliable 5th starter would be a plus for the team though-especially where we know Eovaldi is going to the pen.

[dgalehouse]

To get a Boyd or Wheeler we would have to make a better offer than the other teams who are looking for pitching. That may be difficult. I definitely would not trade Chavis.

[a700hitter]

To get a Boyd or Wheeler we would have to make a better offer than the other teams who are looking for pitching. That may be difficult. I definitely would not trade Chavis.

What about Dalbec?

[dgalehouse]

What about Dalbec?

 

Absolutely. But could the Yankees top that ?

[notin]

What about Dalbec?

 

 

Dalbec has some trade value, but not enough to get elite level players. He’s not a top 100 prospect on any board, so his value will have to come from individual GMs who like Russ Branyan clones.

 

He can probably get a closer or good reliever. He’s not even part of the package for Boyd...

[notin]

Getting a halfway reliable 5th starter would be a plus for the team though-especially where we know Eovaldi is going to the pen.

 

How about, say, Travis Lakins for Jason Vargas?

 

Open to other prospects as well...