And the off season begins (2018-19)

[moonslav59]

What shelf in the dollar store were smith and thornburg on???

 

I was thinking Brasier from the bottom shelf, Moreland, Pearce and Nunez from the middle shelf.

[jacksonianmarch]

Brasier wasn’t on the bottom shelf. He was in the basement underneath the plastic bottles of scotch and surrounded by worn out beanie babies

[a700hitter]

Actually in many cases, stars keep teams mediocre, because one player can only do so much sometimes...

No Kimbrel, Price, Sale or JD, no trophy.

[moonslav59]

No Kimbrel, Price, Sale or JD, no trophy.

 

WE might have still won without Kimbrel.

[Larry Cook]

WE might have still won without Kimbrel.

 

Hard to imagine. Remember despite having kimbrel, desperate Dave kept acquiring sore armed relievers, aka smith and Thornburg.

 

I suspect desperate Dave knows he needs more relievers and I have no doubt he will bring more in before spring training.

[cp176]

They do remember that. They don’t trade for Craig Kimbrel and sign Carl Crawford because it necessarily enhances the baseball team; they do it to appease fans who like star players...

 

I really really doubt this one.

[cp176]

WE might have still won without Kimbrel.

 

We might have won I guess without any number of players that we have. We have and had them though. This is an interesting direction that the thread is heading in. We normally talk about these types of things after we have lost not won. I'm fine thinking that there is no way we could have won without Kimbrel. If we had not won, we all would have been wondering if we could have if we had had him.

[Kimmi]

You really think that's why they traded for Kimbrel?

 

Kimbrel was a top of the line closer, no doubt.

 

But part of his appeal to the casual fan is that he is a well known name. So yes, in part, they traded for Kimbrel because he's a star player.

[Kimmi]

Actually at closer, he has gone for a lot of shiny junk in the past...

 

Two words for you: Miguel Cabrera

 

Maybe not shiny junk when he was first obtained, but definitely shiny junk when he was given his extension.

[Kimmi]

Just like the Yankees were sure they were getting Cliff Lee.

 

If that was his plan, it was pretty dangerous. He was one crazy GM away from a bidding war that put Price’s deal into another stratosphere. And if he didn’t get Orice, same rotation with a better closer and fewer prospects? Does that seem like a well thought out plan?

 

But I guess since he was that crazy GM...

 

Nice!

[Kimmi]

Brasier wasn’t on the bottom shelf. He was in the basement underneath the plastic bottles of scotch and surrounded by worn out beanie babies

 

And somehow, this is one of my favorite moves of Dombrowski's era.

[Kimmi]

WE might have still won without Kimbrel.

 

We might have still won without any of those players.

[Bellhorn04]

Kimbrel was a top of the line closer, no doubt.

 

But part of his appeal to the casual fan is that he is a well known name. So yes, in part, they traded for Kimbrel because he's a star player.

 

I don't really buy this.

 

If I did buy it, then I would also buy that Ben acquired Bailey, Hanrahan and Melancon because they were 'name closers' at the time.

[Dojji]

I don't really buy this.

 

If I did buy it, then I would also buy that Ben acquired Bailey, Hanrahan and Melancon because they were 'name closers' at the time.

 

They were and he did. After lowballing Papelbon they struggled to replace the closer's role for years until Koji stepped up

 

Which is something to think about. Lowballing the name brand closer that is. NOT everyone can just step up and close, the names you mentioned should be pretty good evidence of this.

[Bellhorn04]

To that list I would add Theo's signing of Foulke. I suppose that was just going for the big name too?

 

Balderdash, I say.

[Bellhorn04]

Just like the Yankees were sure they were getting Cliff Lee.

 

If that was his plan, it was pretty dangerous. He was one crazy GM away from a bidding war that put Price’s deal into another stratosphere. And if he didn’t get Orice, same rotation with a better closer and fewer prospects? Does that seem like a well thought out plan?

 

They were either going to sign Price or trade for a starter, I suppose. Not doing anything about the starting rotation was not an option.

[Nick]

Two words for you: Miguel Cabrera

 

Maybe not shiny junk when he was first obtained, but definitely shiny junk when he was given his extension.

 

5 more years at $31M AAV.....it could get ugly.

[Nick]

Closer signing in terms of amount and years will say awful lot about Sox plans for reset.

[Bellhorn04]

Personally I think we're a little hung up on the whole reset thing.

 

What is the basic premise behind resetting?

 

It's like this: get your tax rate back from 50% to 20% so you can spend big again and give yourself tax problems all over again!

[Nick]

Personally I think we're a little hung up on the whole reset thing.

 

What is the basic premise behind resetting?

 

It's like this: get your tax rate back from 50% to 20% so you can spend big again and give yourself tax problems all over again!

 

I guess the thinking is 50% penalty of $20M based on our mythical budget of $40M plus the limit is just is too rich for Henry as opposed to 20% penalty of $8M. The delta is only $12M which may mean nothing to Henry.

[notin]

They were either going to sign Price or trade for a starter, I suppose. Not doing anything about the starting rotation was not an option.

 

 

Which was the point. Trading for a gets a lot more difficult when you spend a bunch of trade chips on a closer. Move almost backfired horrifically when Price had arm issues two years into the deal...

[notin]

Personally I think we're a little hung up on the whole reset thing.

 

What is the basic premise behind resetting?

 

It's like this: get your tax rate back from 50% to 20% so you can spend big again and give yourself tax problems all over again!

 

 

There is some sound financial logic in saving millions and millions of dollars.

 

If you’re John Henry the Businessman, don’t you see the value in winning a title and maximizing the fan base, and then cutting spending knowing the team could still repeat and is good enough to retain a lot of fans?

[S5Dewey]

WE might have still won without Kimbrel.

 

If you believe in WAR then you have to believe that we would have won with a "replacement value" closer (a closer who is well below the league average) in place of Kimbrel.

 

Anyone who actually believes that, please raise your hand.

[S5Dewey]

There is some sound financial logic in saving millions and millions of dollars.

 

If you’re John Henry the Businessman, don’t you see the value in winning a title and maximizing the fan base, and then cutting spending knowing the team could still repeat and is good enough to retain a lot of fans?

 

This is the business side of baseball. For many owners it's not so much a game as it is a business. If an owner can get fans to buy into their "brand" those fans will remain fans through thick and thin. IMO the bottom line of the Red Sox business will benefit for more than one year because of the 2018 season, regardless of how well the team does.

[notin]

This is the business side of baseball. For many owners it's not so much a game as it is a business. If an owner can get fans to buy into their "brand" those fans will remain fans through thick and thin. IMO the bottom line of the Red Sox business will benefit for more than one year because of the 2018 season, regardless of how well the team does.

 

 

It’s a business for all of them. As Sox fans we’re fortunate to have an owner who actually is very much a baseball fan. But it’s still a business to him. Just a business that he loves...

[Bellhorn04]

Which was the point. Trading for a gets a lot more difficult when you spend a bunch of trade chips on a closer. Move almost backfired horrifically when Price had arm issues two years into the deal...

 

There were plenty of chips left. Dave wasn't stopping till he cleaned out the farm, remember?

 

And of course Price's arm issues have nothing to do with this particular debate.

[notin]

I

There were plenty of chips left. Dave wasn't stopping till he cleaned out the farm, remember?

 

And of course Price's arm issues have nothing to do with this particular debate.

 

It helps that he’s over them.

 

So why did he go for a closer before signing /trading for an ace? Certainly Kimbrel wasn’t going anywhere and the Padres weren’t topping that offer...

[Bellhorn04]

There is some sound financial logic in saving millions and millions of dollars.

 

If you’re John Henry the Businessman, don’t you see the value in winning a title and maximizing the fan base, and then cutting spending knowing the team could still repeat and is good enough to retain a lot of fans?

 

I don't disagree. I just think the value of the 'reset' is a little overstated, I guess, because it implies that the team is going to utilize it to spend big all over again.

 

Sort of like going off the bottle for a week so you can go on a huge bender right after that.

[Bellhorn04]

I

 

It helps that he’s over them.

 

So why did he go for a closer before signing /trading for an ace? Certainly Kimbrel wasn’t going anywhere and the Padres weren’t topping that offer...

 

I don't have all the facts, but I would assume there were some other teams in on Kimbrel.

 

I tend to think there was a bit more logic in DD's process than what you're suggesting.

[notin]

I don't have all the facts, but I would assume there were some other teams in on Kimbrel.

 

I tend to think there was a bit more logic in DD's process than what you're suggesting.

 

 

I can acknowledge that. Maybe some other team was hit on Kimbrel ( although DD’s big price tag did ensure the Padres would keep in touch).

 

But it always seemed crazy to go after the closer first. Especially from a guy historically known for plugging anyone into the role. Go for an ace while you still have all your chips. Even if he was married to Price (whom he had traded for before and probably knew), he had to know that contract had the potential to be catastrophic.

 

Of course it is also possible he only went after Kimbrel to alleviate fears for his poor bullpen reputation with the biggest name possible...