And the off season begins (2018-19)

[a700hitter]

Ok. Now in her defense and I was thinking along the same lines - while Cabrera signed that extension in2014, he still had two years of control left at the time and the extension did not actually start until 2016, which might end up being the last good season of his career. So can we agree that for the next 5 years Miguel Cabrera will be a really awful contract? Something that appears to have started 2 years ago.

 

It’s Detroit, so, you know, who cares?

So, you were wrong too. GMTA.

[notin]

So, you were wrong too. GMTA.

 

I was not wrong in thinking that he has been declining at an exponential rate since that extension started, regardless of the date ink was put on paper...

[a700hitter]

I was not wrong in thinking that he has been declining at an exponential rate since that extension started, regardless of the date ink was put on paper...

But he wasn't junk when the extension was given in March 2014. And that was Kimmi's statement.

[moonslav59]

The Miggy deal is so different from an extension offered to Betts 2 years before his control is up.

 

Can we move on?

 

[moonslav59]

Tulo signs with Yanks for min salary.

[moonslav59]

Tulo signs with Yanks for min salary.

 

Pedey, Chavis and Johnson for Tulo & Gray.

[a700hitter]

Tulo signs with Yanks for min salary.

Now, there is a shiny piece of junk.

[notin]

But he wasn't junk when the extension was given in March 2014. And that was Kimmi's statement.

 

It was an extremely predictable outcome and unnecessary at the time...

[S5Dewey]

You’re kidding, right?

 

Kimbrel was not good in the second half at all and much worse In the postseason. You must have noticed that.

 

I wouldn’t go so far as to say we won in spite of Kimbrel. But yes that performance after the All Star break and straight thru October was absolutely replaceable...

 

Absolutely not kidding, just pointing out the fallacy of WAR in the case of Craig Kimbrel.

 

The Sox won their division by 8 games. Kimbrel was worth 2.3 bWins Above a Replacement level closer.

 

If you think Kimbrel was only responsible for 2.8 more wins than a replacement level closer (that's a pitcher with a WAR of 0.0) I don't know what to tell you.

Edited January 2, 2019 by S5Dewey

[notin]

Absolutely not kidding, just pointing out the fallacy of WAR in the case of Craig Kimbrel.

 

The Sox won their division by 8 games. Kimbrel was worth 2.3 bWins Above a Replacement level closer.

 

If you think Kimbrel was only responsible for 2.8 more wins than a replacement level closer (that's a pitcher with a WAR of 0.0) I don't know what to tell you.

 

Kimbrel’s second half numbers actually weren’t much different than the second half numbers of 0.0 bWAR closers like Cody Allen and Bud Norris. The Sox might have had a worse record with either of these two (both of whom also appear more likely than Kimbrel to be the Sox closer in 2019), but certainly not worse enough to finish behind New York. While the”what if” game is impossible to prove, we’re talking about an eight game difference here. That’s a lot, especially in an era where closers rarely if ever handle tough saves.

 

But then if the Sox didn’t have Kimbrel, the closer probably would not have been a 0.0 bWAR reliever. The worst case scenario is probably Barnes as closer, and right now by virtue of being here, he’s the front runner for that role, at least until some other deal happens.

 

So if Barnes was closing instead of Kimbrel, how much worse would the Sox have really been? I think that question rests more on who had to replace Barnes in the bullpen. Which might be the plan for 2019...

Edited January 2, 2019 by notin

[a700hitter]

It was an extremely predictable outcome and unnecessary at the time...

LOL! And I have been accused of not admitting when I am wrong. The guy had 3 top shelf seasons after he signed the extension. Whether or not his decline was predictable over the course of the contract, he was not a shiny piece of junk when he signed the extension. Take the last word if you like, but you will still be wrong. Edited January 2, 2019 by a700hitter

[dgalehouse]

Criticizing the Cabrera contract is just another way of taking a shot at Dombrowski. D.D. has had a fantastically successful three year run with the Sox . But the small time Charlies still long for the days of Cherington. Bottom line results mean nothing to them . What are you going to do ? They think they reinvented the game of baseball.

[kenmeister]

Tulo signs with Yanks for min salary.

 

Why do you think the Jays released Tulo? They have to pay him anyway.

[notin]

Pedey, Chavis and Johnson for Tulo & Gray.

 

 

I’d rather have Pedroia, Chavis and Johnson...

[notin]

Criticizing the Cabrera contract is just another way of taking a shot at Dombrowski. D.D. has had a fantastically successful three year run with the Sox . But the small time Charlies still long for the days of Cherington. Bottom line results mean nothing to them . What are you going to do ? They think they reinvented the game of baseball.

 

 

And you accuse other people of trolling....

[notin]

Now, there is a shiny piece of junk.

 

 

He’ll be released again before May 1...

[a700hitter]

Criticizing the Cabrera contract is just another way of taking a shot at Dombrowski. D.D. has had a fantastically successful three year run with the Sox . But the small time Charlies still long for the days of Cherington. Bottom line results mean nothing to them . What are you going to do ? They think they reinvented the game of baseball.

Yep, and if DD gets a 4th Consecutive Division title and back to back World Championships, he would have to be considered the greatest Red Sox GM. That would make the Ben Cherries’ crowd very confused as reality would clearly diverge from their preconceptions.

[a700hitter]

He’ll be released again before May 1...

Maybe sooner if they sign Manny.

[notin]

Maybe sooner if they sign Manny.

 

I was going to say before April 1, but I gave him another month in case they didn’t sign Machado...

[fxkatt]

Pedey, Chavis and Johnson for Tulo & Gray.

 

If we're headed toward resting our starters more this year than last, then picking up Gray might work out. My only doubt is including Chavez... in a way, I want to see him go for something, but what Chavez is capable of is still an open question--with me.

[notin]

Yep, and if DD gets a 4th Consecutive Division title and back to back World Championships, he would have to be considered the greatest Red Sox GM. That would make the Ben Cherries’ crowd very confused as reality would clearly diverge from their preconceptions.

 

Dombrowski is doing better than Cherington already, but criticism of Dombrowski doesn’t mean praise for Cherington, much in the same way criticism of Cora (which there was a whole thread on) isn’t praise for Farrell or Valentine or Francona. All independent.

 

I’ve praised Cherington more than a lot of people, but I’ve criticized him as well. I did not like his failure to trade any prospects, for example. I also hated the Sandoval contract before the ink was dry. (I never pawned his bad moves off on Lucchino, whom I have also defended more than most people.) I don’t think Cherington deserved the same legacy some want to leave for him. He did pull the team out of an awful situation he didn’t create and turn a rebuild trade into a title in one year. Not sure why so few find that unimpressive.

 

I like Dombrowski more than I thought I would when he was hired, but that doesn’t mean everything he has ever done or is going to do gets to be above criticism.

 

I am still hesitant to say DDis better than Epstein was for the Sox. The man ended the title drought while rebuilding the farm and then won another title quickly. But even Epstein wasn’t perfect...

[kenmeister]

Looking at

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WWW.MLB.COM

I'm surprised to see Jed Lowrie still unsigned. I thought the A's would gobble him back up for sure. I also see the player with my favorite baseball name is up for grabs - Asdrubal Cabrera. Jose Iglesias is still out there too. Maybe all the signings will come this week and next?

[a700hitter]

Dombrowski is doing better than Cherington already, but criticism of Dombrowski doesn’t mean praise for Cherington, much in the same way criticism of Cora (which there was a whole thread on) isn’t praise for Farrell or Valentine or Francona. All independent.

 

I’ve praised Cherington more than a lot of people, but I’ve criticized him as well. I did not like his failure to trade any prospects, for example. I also hated the Sandoval contract before the ink was dry. (I never pawned his bad moves off on Lucchino, whom I have also defended more than most people.) I don’t think Cherington deserved the same legacy some want to leave for him. He did pull the team out of an awful situation he didn’t create and turn a rebuild trade into a title in one year. Not sure why so few find that unimpressive.

 

I like Dombrowski more than I thought I would when he was hired, but that doesn’t mean everything he has ever done or is going to do gets to be above criticism.

 

I am still hesitant to say DDis better than Epstein was for the Sox. The man ended the title drought while rebuilding the farm and then won another title quickly. But even Epstein wasn’t perfect...

I wouldn’t put DD above Theo yet. If he gets us back to back Championships and 4 consecutive division titles, he will be the best imo.

[notin]

I wouldn’t put DD above Theo yet. If he gets us back to back Championships and 4 consecutive division titles, he will be the best imo.

 

In some ways, I can see that.

 

Really I think his legacy rests more on 2020. Right now he is still benefiting heavily from a roster that isn’t in flux. But once Sale and Bogaerts are up for free agency and Betts enters his final year, he will have an immense job keeping any momentum going....

[notin]

Looking at

404 Not Found: /news/2019-mlb-free-agents/c-293292274, | MLB.com

WWW.MLB.COM

I'm surprised to see Jed Lowrie still unsigned. I thought the A's would gobble him back up for sure. I also see the player with my favorite baseball name is up for grabs - Asdrubal Cabrera. Jose Iglesias is still out there too. Maybe all the signings will come this week and next?

 

Dozier and LaMahieu as well.

 

The big reason is most of the players to sign have taken deals of two years or less. Theee players all likely want longer deals that are just not being offered...

[moonslav59]

I’d rather have Pedroia, Chavis and Johnson...

 

I think the $5M savings tips the balance.

[moonslav59]

Dombrowski is doing better than Cherington already, but criticism of Dombrowski doesn’t mean praise for Cherington, much in the same way criticism of Cora (which there was a whole thread on) isn’t praise for Farrell or Valentine or Francona. All independent.

 

I’ve praised Cherington more than a lot of people, but I’ve criticized him as well. I did not like his failure to trade any prospects, for example. I also hated the Sandoval contract before the ink was dry. (I never pawned his bad moves off on Lucchino, whom I have also defended more than most people.) I don’t think Cherington deserved the same legacy some want to leave for him. He did pull the team out of an awful situation he didn’t create and turn a rebuild trade into a title in one year. Not sure why so few find that unimpressive.

 

I like Dombrowski more than I thought I would when he was hired, but that doesn’t mean everything he has ever done or is going to do gets to be above criticism.

 

I am still hesitant to say DDis better than Epstein was for the Sox. The man ended the title drought while rebuilding the farm and then won another title quickly. But even Epstein wasn’t perfect...

 

My sentiments, exactly.

[Jack Flap]

I find it funny how territorial and sensitive people get in these GM vs GM debates. Now you can't offer any criticism of Dombrowski without it being taken as evidence of a secret longing for Cherington, or, conversely, say anything positive about Cherington without it also being a swipe at Dombrowski. Silliness.

[moonslav59]

I find it funny how territorial and sensitive people get in these GM vs GM debates. Now you can't offer any criticism of Dombrowski without it being taken as evidence of a secret longing for Cherington, or, conversely, say anything positive about Cherington without it also being a swipe at Dombrowski. Silliness.

 

Good summary of the state of GM debates.

 

To me, all did well. All made terrible mistakes. All have a ring. All left the others with some good and bad for the next guy with DD's weak farm being the projected downside of his legacy.

[notin]

Good summary of the state of GM debates.

 

To me, all did well. All made terrible mistakes. All have a ring. All left the others with some good and bad for the next guy with DD's weak farm being the projected downside of his legacy.

 

And let us all be thankful this team was never owned by Carl Pohlad...

Edited January 2, 2019 by notin