And the off season begins (2018-19)

[Kimmi]

Projections don't mean nearly as much to me as the performance on the field. If the Red Sox finish in last place, and there are no meaningful games after July, it is completely irrelevant to me if they were projected to finish first. Would that be an anomaly? Possibly, but 3 last place finishes is a pattern and a bad record unmatched in my lifetime.

 

If the Red Sox finish in last place this year, is that Dombrowski's fault?

[Kimmi]

I disagree, and others do as well, obviously. The results of 2014 and 2015 cost Ben his job.

 

Yes, Henry panicked, as he's been known to do when things don't go well.

 

I will ask you the same question. If the Sox come in last place this year, is that Dombrowski's fault?

[Kimmi]

I like it. DD is doing some diligent dumpster diving this offseason LOL

 

Dombrowski has been paying attention.

[Jack Flap]

Good signing for a minor league deal.

 

There is some hope with this one.

 

Between G.Hernandez, E.Ramirez, Putnam, and now Smith (and I feel like I'm forgetting someone), I like what we've been doing on the minor league free agent circuit. I know a lot of people tend to scoff at signings like that, but I could easily see us getting decent value out of one or two of those guys.

[Bellhorn04]

Yes, Henry panicked, as he's been known to do when things don't go well.

 

I will ask you the same question. If the Sox come in last place this year, is that Dombrowski's fault?

 

If the Red Sox come in last place this year, some of it will fall on Dombrowski, yes.

 

The only exception to this, in my opinion, is if the downfall is clearly attributable to multiple injuries to key players such as what happened to us in 2006.

[notin]

Between G.Hernandez, E.Ramirez, Putnam, and now Smith (and I feel like I'm forgetting someone), I like what we've been doing on the minor league free agent circuit. I know a lot of people tend to scoff at signings like that, but I could easily see us getting decent value out of one or two of those guys.

 

 

Hey if Carson Smith can actually get healthy and pitch like he did in Seattle, he’s a great add. Granted, this is like his third or fourth season in Boston and he has less than 25 IP, so he is at best a lottery ticket...

[a700hitter]

The GM in 2012, 2014, and 2015 did his job, which is to put together a contending team on paper.

 

The architect of the team gets the primary blame. The manager can share the blame at times, but accountability sits with the GM. Ben did a piss poor job and it take advanced math or metrics to see that the pitching staffs under Ben were woefully inadequate.

[a700hitter]

If the Red Sox finish in last place this year, is that Dombrowski's fault?

Arguing hypotheticals is always very unpersuasive, and this one is especially unpersuasive since this hypothetical will not happen.

[a700hitter]

Sometimes the general manager has to wear it.

 

Ben gets great credit for 2013, as he should, but there were some amazing overperformance by a number of players on that team. In 2014 everything turned around in the other direction. Shane Victorino might be the poster boy for what happened.

 

If Ben gets great credit for 2013 he also has to wear the results of 2014 and 2015. That's how I see it, anyway.

 

When you look at the history of the team since 2002, generally speaking the only years where the team fell vastly short of pre-season expectations were the Cherington years.

Agreed.

[S5Dewey]

Hey if Carson Smith can actually get healthy and pitch like he did in Seattle, he’s a great add. Granted, this is like his third or fourth season in Boston and he has less than 25 IP, so he is at best a lottery ticket...

 

Yes, but it's only the $1 ticket and not the $25 model. I like the risk/reward attached to Smith.

[jacksonianmarch]

He is also coming off labrum surgery, which means he is gonna be the knockoff, rusted model for 2019, not the shiny 2015 model

[Kimmi]

If the Red Sox come in last place this year, some of it will fall on Dombrowski, yes.

 

The only exception to this, in my opinion, is if the downfall is clearly attributable to multiple injuries to key players such as what happened to us in 2006.

 

Fair enough.

 

Now I'm almost hoping that the Sox come in last place this year.

 

Just kidding, of course.

[a700hitter]

Fair enough.

 

Now I'm almost hoping that the Sox come in last place this year.

 

Just kidding, of course.

That's sick, even as a joke.

[Kimmi]

Arguing hypotheticals is always very unpersuasive, and this one is especially unpersuasive since this hypothetical will not happen.

 

In other words, no.

[Kimmi]

Yes, but it's only the $1 ticket and not the $25 model. I like the risk/reward attached to Smith.

 

The risk/reward with most minor league depth signings is pretty good.

 

I say the more the merrier. Keep 'em coming.

[a700hitter]

In other words, no.

No, that is an incorrect conclusion. Although it would be difficult to envision the Red Sox hypothetically finishing last in 2019, if it were to happen, it would be DD's fault, probably for doing something unthinkably stupid like trading Betts, or Bogarts or something similarly dumb. As the roster stands now, this team will not finish last unless they go down in a JetBlue crash. Arguing based on unlikely hypotheticals is so weak that only the most desperate debater would resort to it.

[notin]

We need to remember that not everyone is a sophisticated fan who studies the advanced stats and various projections and budget issues. These other fans are the ones the team needs to fill Fenway and watch on TV. And they are paying plenty. They are paying many of the bills. They want a team that has a chance to win. They don't want to hear about resets , cliffs , bridge years , etc. Call them spoiled if you want , but they are a good part of the fan base. And ownership needs to remember that.

 

 

They do remember that. They don’t trade for Craig Kimbrel and sign Carl Crawford because it necessarily enhances the baseball team; they do it to appease fans who like star players...

[a700hitter]

They do remember that. They don’t trade for Craig Kimbrel and sign Carl Crawford because it necessarily enhances the baseball team; they do it to appease fans who like star players...

It doesn't work if the Stars don't help them win. Fans don't like losers.

[notin]

It doesn't work if the Stars don't help them win. Fans don't like losers.

 

 

Yes and no.

 

There is usually an impact on season ticket sales before the season in anticipation of winning. But even if the team is successful, the weight of those star contracts can drag a team into mediocrity fast. And when that happens, all winning is forgotten.

 

The losing is remembered forever. But the winning is forgotten immediately....

[Bellhorn04]

They do remember that. They don’t trade for Craig Kimbrel and sign Carl Crawford because it necessarily enhances the baseball team; they do it to appease fans who like star players...

 

You really think that's why they traded for Kimbrel?

[notin]

You really think that's why they traded for Kimbrel?

 

Yes. He went for a big name.

 

Was closer really the biggest need at the time? Was it the second biggest? The Sox weren’t coming off last place finishes due to issues with the closer.

 

He did fill one much bigger need with Price, but it’s not like he knew he was going to get him when he traded for Kimbrel. And if his plan was to go as high as it took, it just proves my point further.

 

Why do you suppose his first deal was for Kimbrel? Not just for a closer - but Kimbrel. There were plenty of free agent closers available at the time. Why go for the biggest available name?

[a700hitter]

Yes and no.

 

There is usually an impact on season ticket sales before the season in anticipation of winning. But even if the team is successful, the weight of those star contracts can drag a team into mediocrity fast. And when that happens, all winning is forgotten.

 

The losing is remembered forever. But the winning is forgotten immediately....

Yes, that is true. Stars usually help you win, and that is why they are stars, but on some rare occasions they are duds. That is not soon forgotten.

[a700hitter]

Yes. He went for a big name.

 

Was closer really the biggest need at the time? Was it the second biggest? The Sox weren’t coming off last place finishes due to issues with the closer.

 

He did fill one much bigger need with Price, but it’s not like he knew he was going to get him when he traded for Kimbrel. And if his plan was to go as high as it took, it just proves my point further.

 

Why do you suppose his first deal was for Kimbrel? Not just for a closer - but Kimbrel. There were plenty of free agent closers available at the time. Why go for the biggest available name?

DD doesn't just go for a name. He went for the best closer. DD always goes top shelf. Look at JD's stats over the last 4 or 5 seasons. He is in the top 4 or 5 of all hitters. Price is a great talent. He doesn't buy shiny junk.

[moonslav59]

DD doesn't just go for a name. He went for the best closer. DD always goes top shelf. Look at JD's stats over the last 4 or 5 seasons. He is in the top 4 or 5 of all hitters. Price is a great talent. He doesn't buy shiny junk.

 

He buys from all shelves, but he certainly gets his share from the top shelf.

[Bellhorn04]

Yes. He went for a big name.

 

Was closer really the biggest need at the time? Was it the second biggest? The Sox weren’t coming off last place finishes due to issues with the closer.

 

He did fill one much bigger need with Price, but it’s not like he knew he was going to get him when he traded for Kimbrel.

 

Why do you suppose his first deal was for Kimbrel? Not just for a closer - but Kimbrel. There were plenty of free agent closers available at the time. Why go for the biggest available name?

 

I think he was pretty sure he was getting Price.

[Larry Cook]

He buys from all shelves, but he certainly gets his share from the top shelf.

 

What shelf in the dollar store were smith and thornburg on???

[Nick]

Few Random Thoughts

 

This was one of most enjoyable Red Sox team.

 

Power does matter, you can't convince me otherwise.

 

DD will do his best to put together best team on paper.

 

He will not trade any significant pieces this year. It's just silly. It's more likely that we'll extend some of our players.

 

I know what a 'cliff' looks like. That was E Rod's rookie year. Call me a homer but I only watched games when he started. A 'cliff' is when majority of fans decide they have better things to do in life than to spend 3 1/2 hours watching the Sox get pummeled.

 

Happy New Year everyone.

[notin]

DD doesn't just go for a name. He went for the best closer. DD always goes top shelf. Look at JD's stats over the last 4 or 5 seasons. He is in the top 4 or 5 of all hitters. Price is a great talent. He doesn't buy shiny junk.

 

Actually at closer, he has gone for a lot of shiny junk in the past...

[notin]

I think he was pretty sure he was getting Price.

 

Just like the Yankees were sure they were getting Cliff Lee.

 

If that was his plan, it was pretty dangerous. He was one crazy GM away from a bidding war that put Price’s deal into another stratosphere. And if he didn’t get Orice, same rotation with a better closer and fewer prospects? Does that seem like a well thought out plan?

 

But I guess since he was that crazy GM...

[notin]

Yes, that is true. Stars usually help you win, and that is why they are stars, but on some rare occasions they are duds. That is not soon forgotten.

 

Actually in many cases, stars keep teams mediocre, because one player can only do so much sometimes...