Dave Dombrowski

[Kimmi]

No, it’s not hate, it’s simply a criticism. One of the few as far as I can tell.

 

Thank you.

 

And welcome to my posse.

[Kimmi]

Also, when Ben re-signed Koji for 2 yrs/$18 mil, I thought that was too much.

 

I was thrilled to have Koji back, as I would be thrilled to have Kimbrel back, but that doesn't mean I won't think it's an overpay.

[Emp9]

Thank you.

 

And welcome to my posse.

 

Oh, you mean that “Posse of Hate” I’ve been hearing so much about? Glad to be here! Thanks for having me! Lol:rolleyes:

[a700hitter]

No, it’s not hate, it’s simply a criticism. One of the few as far as I can tell.

Oh, I forgot. It is only hate when criticism is about Ben.

[moonslav59]

Also, when Ben re-signed Koji for 2 yrs/$18 mil, I thought that was too much.

 

I was thrilled to have Koji back, as I would be thrilled to have Kimbrel back, but that doesn't mean I won't think it's an overpay.

 

The best thing about the Koji signing was that it didn't cost us a big contract AND 4 prospects. (Plus, he was better than Kimbrel.)

[vegasbob]

The best thing about the Koji signing was that it didn't cost us a big contract AND 4 prospects. (Plus, he was better than Kimbrel.)

 

Yes, predictably consistent with Koji. Kimbrel brings all the excitement of a Nantucket sleigh ride. He usually gets the whale, but it is exciting to watch.

[moonslav59]

Yes, predictably consistent with Koji. Kimbrel brings all the excitement of a Nantucket sleigh ride. He usually gets the whale, but it is exciting to watch.

 

...and Koji didn't need a "clean inning" or "Just save situations" to do his thing.

 

The guy put up legendary WHIP numbers with the Sox and even before coming to us.

 

Thanks Ben.

 

Talk about consistent excellence!

 

WHIP/ Year

0.955 '10 BAL

0.723 '11 TEX

0.639 '12 TEX

0.565 '13 BOS Just mind-blowing amazing

0.917 '14 BOS

0.917 '15 BOS

0.957 '16 BOS

 

 

 

[Emp9]

Oh, I forgot. It is only hate when criticism is about Ben.

 

Guess I’m a Ben hater too then. And a Theo hater, if a few criticisms here and there are all I need to fit the criteria.

 

Worst part is, DD has been quietly winning me over every season little by little, but that still doesn’t mean I’m going to stop criticizing him.

[a700hitter]

Guess I’m a Ben hater too then. And a Theo hater, if a few criticisms here and there are all I need to fit the criteria.

 

Worst part is, DD has been quietly winning me over every season little by little, but that still doesn’t mean I’m going to stop criticizing him.

I agree with that. Criticism of managers and GMs comes with the territory.

[Slasher9]

Because we will need those pennies to pay for other players.

 

A closer that's good enough to get the team to the post season will be good enough to pitch in Game 7. Stating that a closer besides Kimbrel has such a greater likelihood to blow Game 7 than Kimbrel does is faulty.

Does 2001 ring a bell to anyone??

 

Edited reply as it was meant for doji...not kimmi

Edited August 8, 2018 by Slasher9

[Slasher9]

This is the Boston Red Sox. Why are we pinching pennies?

 

Almost the same production. you mean he can blow 1 game 7 instead of 0? I mean that's almost the same production. 1 is pretty close to 0 after all.

 

Does 2001 ring a bell to anyone??.?

Pretty sure the GOAT closer in the history of the worlds blew a World Series game 7.....

[Bellhorn04]

I agree that identifying those guys is tricky. But they are out there.

 

Sure, just follow Ben's approach with Bailey/Hanrahan/Melancon/Koji. 'If at first you don't succeed, try, try again!' It's more fun that way.

[Bellhorn04]

Does 2001 ring a bell to anyone??.?

Pretty sure the GOAT closer in the history of the worlds blew a World Series game 7.....

 

He sure did. And a certain clinching opportunity in 2004 as well.

 

Overall his postseason numbers were absolutely insane though. A 0.70 ERA and a .76 WHIP in 141 innings.

[a700hitter]

He sure did. And a certain clinching opportunity in 2004 as well.

 

Overall his postseason numbers were absolutely insane though. A 0.70 ERA and a .76 WHIP in 141 innings.

No one else even comes close, and having that hammer at the end of their bullpen was a main reason why the Yankees consistently went deep into October. Lock down closers make a difference, and you don't dumpster dive for one when you have a $240 million payroll.

[Bellhorn04]

In fact, Kimbrel was traded 8 months earlier for one top 100 prospect and a recent draftee who had done nothing at the time and nothing since. The Braves did also unload the contract of Melvin Upton in that deal, but took on the negative value contracts of Carlos Quentin and Cameron Maybin. Dombrowski gave up more top 100 prospects and more additional prospects and unloaded fewer bad contracts to acquire the same pitcher with fewer years of control at a greater cost per year.

 

Why was Kimbrel so comparatively cheap just 8 months earlier?

 

Fair analysis but why not finish it off with the remaining dollars on Upton vs. Quentin/Maybin for the total picture?

[Slasher9]

He sure did. And a certain clinching opportunity in 2004 as well.

 

Overall his postseason numbers were absolutely insane though. A 0.70 ERA and a .76 WHIP in 141 innings.

 

no doubt.

it was just too perfect though when Doji used a game 7 Blown Save as an example......

[Hitch]

Guess I’m a Ben hater too then. And a Theo hater, if a few criticisms here and there are all I need to fit the criteria.

 

Worst part is, DD has been quietly winning me over every season little by little, but that still doesn’t mean I’m going to stop criticizing him.

 

Exactly. Questioning what was given away on a trade here and there, doesn't make you a 'hater'.

[notin]

He sure did. And a certain clinching opportunity in 2004 as well.

 

Overall his postseason numbers were absolutely insane though. A 0.70 ERA and a .76 WHIP in 141 innings.

 

Yet he only pitched in one Gme 7 of the World Series in his career and gave up 2 runs in it to turn a potential win into a loss. Guess he really was a choker...

[notin]

Exactly. Questioning what was given away on a trade here and there, doesn't make you a 'hater'.

 

Apparently it does when it’s Dombrowski. Also if you think a GM someone else likes is flawless might have overpaid, you can get accused of trying to save John Henry’s money, and damnit, we’re the big market Red Sox and owe a limitless payroll to our fans!!

[a700hitter]

Criticizing a guy whose team finished first twice in 2 years and is on its way to a 100 plus win season in his third year is just criticism, but criticism of a guy whose team finished last 3 times in 4 seasons is hate.

[jacksonianmarch]

He sure did. And a certain clinching opportunity in 2004 as well.

 

Overall his postseason numbers were absolutely insane though. A 0.70 ERA and a .76 WHIP in 141 innings.

 

Mo pitched the reliever equivalent of two full seasons in the post season. More men have walked on the moon than have scored an earned run against Mo in the post season. The meltdowns were rare, but they’re magnified in the playoffs

[Slasher9]

Criticizing a guy whose team finished first twice in 2 years and is on its way to a 100 plus win season in his third year is just criticism, but criticism of a guy whose team finished last 3 times in 4 seasons is hate.

 

that 4th season tho.

 

as for DD...just because acquiring Kimbrel was a good move doesnt mean he didn't also get fleeced on an overpay. as pointed out by notin, he was acquired 8 months prior for much much less.

 

how do you feel about the Pom trade?

[Dojji]

We're talking about two whole failures in how many years of pitching in the postseason? Mo was the best relief pitcher we'll see in our lifetimes, anyone else would have blown more games than he did

 

You CAN'T assess relievers by their failures. The fact that Sox fans insist on doing so is why even Papelbon's welcome wore out here. You know, the literal best closer the Red Sox have ever had? Won us a World Series? Still disrespected by the fans over his few failures and basically shot his way out of town?

 

We'll never have a Mo if we can 't learn to understand what the job of closer actually is.

[Slasher9]

More men have walked on the moon than have scored an earned run against Mo in the post season.

thats a pretty good line.

[Slasher9]

 

We'll never have a Mo if we can 't learn to understand what the job of closer actually is.

 

no one will ever have a Mo. but he still blew a World Series Game 7.

[Dojji]

no one will ever have a Mo. but he still blew a World Series Game 7.

 

Which goes to illustrate that literally no closer is perfect. If the best there ever will be blew multiple must win games over his extremely long career, we probably shouldn't ask *more* than that of the closer du jour, or act all outraged when a blown save happens

[Slasher9]

Which goes to illustrate that literally no closer is perfect. If the best there ever will be blew multiple must win games over his extremely long career, we probably shouldn't ask *more* than that of the closer du jour, or act all outraged when a blown save happens

 

agreed. which is also why maybe we shouldn't spend an exorbitant amount of money on a closer. use that money elsewhere.

[Bellhorn04]

as for DD...just because acquiring Kimbrel was a good move doesnt mean he didn't also get fleeced on an overpay. as pointed out by notin, he was acquired 8 months prior for much much less.

 

notin's analysis was a tad incomplete because he didn't include all the dollar figures.

 

The Atlanta-San Diego Kimbrel trade was a whole different animal.

 

In trading Kimbrel Atlanta unloaded the final 3 years of Melvin Upton's colossal bust contract. It appears this saved them about $50 million.

[Bellhorn04]

agreed. which is also why maybe we shouldn't spend an exorbitant amount of money on a closer. use that money elsewhere.

 

On the flip side of that, signing Keith Foulke worked out pretty good.

 

There are never any guarantees no matter what you do.

[Dojji]

agreed. which is also why maybe we shouldn't spend an exorbitant amount of money on a closer. use that money elsewhere.

 

Very much disagree with this. What we need to learn to do is adequately assess what the job of a closer is. Right now we're not doing that and it's leading to some extremely wonky conclusions about what the purpose of a closer is supposed to be.

 

By any objective standard Kimbrel is one of the best closers in baseball right now and worth every penny of his contract. But because contribution in a stop-loss position like Closer is hard to quantify (because the closer is only generally noticed when he fails), certain people are reaching the mistaken conclusion that difficult-to-quantify values don't exist or don't matter. Both conclusions are wrong.

 

We need to be able to at least adequately ballpark the proper value of a top end closer before we can even answer the question of whether it's OK to go cheap at the position.

 

The fact that sabermetrics can't actually give a reliable value for negative consequences avoided is no excuse to pretend that that value doesn't exist.

 

It never ceases to amaze me that people claim to put value in numbers and statistics without even a general understanding of how to use them. I'm a statistical novice myself, but at least i recognize the fact that failing to quantify something doesn't deprive it of value.

Edited August 8, 2018 by Dojji