Dave Dombrowski

[Dojji]

It is stark, as is the difference between GM and his current job. Let’s not tip toe around it.

 

Well it is a stark transition, as him who passed the sentence swung the sword.

[notin]

Well it is a stark transition, as him who passed the sentence swung the sword.

 

Bravo on the Game of Thrones references...

[jacksonianmarch]

Dave Dombrowski built a team that is on pace to win 111 games going into the final series before the ASB. You have to be happy with him

[a700hitter]

The arguments that Ben was a good GM always remind me of prizefighters with broken noses and bleeding from cuts complaining that they should have won the fight because they claim that the other guy never laid a glove on them. The assertion is ridiculous.

[mvp 78]

Dave Dombrowski built a team that is on pace to win 111 games going into the final series before the ASB. You have to be happy with him

 

You would f***ing think so...

[mvp 78]

The arguments that Ben was a good GM always remind me of prizefighters with broken noses and bleeding from cuts complaining that they should have won the fight because they claim that the other guy never laid a glove on them. The assertion is ridiculous.

 

He gets a pass on 2012 since it wasn't his team. In 2013, all the references to him being a boob were made to look foolish because he was able to put a great team on the field. In 2014, you could talk about a WS hangover or whatever and give him some sort of pass or at least excuse it away. However, when he brought in Pablo and Hanley for 2015 after letting Lester walk and then found himself again in last place, it's hard for me to continue to support him going forward.

[Kimmi]

What was the 2016 pitching staff going to be under Ben? Does Ben stick with the "don't sign pitchers over 30" thinking and create another big hole in the rotation?

 

Who would be the closer?

 

Sale would be part of the 2016 pitching staff. I don't know who the closer would have been, but it wouldn't have been Kimbrel.

 

And I would hope that Ben would stick with the 'not signing pitchers over 30 to big contracts' philosophy.

[Kimmi]

The team "was going" to be competitive in 14 and 15 too.

 

Unless we spent what it cost to upgrade the pitching staff, we were going to continue to struggle somewhere in the middle and bottom of the division.

 

DD was willing to spend what it took to improve the pitching staff.

Cherington kept getting sticker shock at the cost and refusing to take the starting staff nearly as seriously as it needed to be taken. He would NOT spend top dollar for top starting pitchers and that's exactly why those teams did poorly.

 

You get what you pay for. If you don't pay for top quality, don't expect top results. And we certainly did not get top results from our starting staff under Ben Cherington. and that's without the absolutely retarded lowballing of Jon Lester factored in (see above: "sticker shock").

 

DD realized that to get premium pitching you have to pay a premium. That concept was absolutely alien to Cherington, and it was his downfall.

 

and if the farm system had to be emptied to pay that premium. personally I'll chalk that down to the shoddy state of our rotation and the need by DD to pay through the nose to build the rotation from the ground up in a buyers' market. That's also partially down to Cherington, for not maintaining the starting rotation properly in his tenure. DD had to pay for the pound of cure for want of Cherington's ounce of prevention, if you will.

 

The thing about a 5 year plan is that it takes 5 years. During that time, you build a team to be competitive without making any big trades or long term free agent acquisitions. You sign the Mike Napolis and Mitch Morelands of the world. I will say again that the Pablo signing goes so much against Ben's grain that I can't believe he was behind that signing.

 

I have no doubt that Ben would have traded some of his prospects in 2016. He would not have given up the package that Dombrowski did for Kimbrel, but he would have moved some prospects to improve the pitching.

[Kimmi]

I really don't think I've ever said anything close to this.

 

You have not. That was to the board, in general.

[Kimmi]

+3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062862089986

 

+2.718281828459045235360287471352662497757247093699959574966967627724076630353547594571382178525166427427466391932003059921817413596629043572900334295260

[Kimmi]

What were the Red Sox projections for 2013 BTW?

 

Good question Bell, and good job posting it.

 

Fangraphs Depth Charts was not introduced until May of that year, so there are no standings projections. That said, none of Fangraphs' 31 staff members at that point picked the Sox for either the division or the wildcard.

 

BP (Pecota) had the Sox tying for 2nd in the division with the Rays, 6 games behind the Yankees.

 

Davenport had them finishing in 4th place with 85 wins, but with the Yankees, the Rays, and the Jays all with 86 wins.

 

Jonah Keri at Grantland had the Sox finishing in 4th ahead of only the Orioles.

 

So, it could be strongly argued that the Sox were not really considered a contender that season.

 

I concede that they outperformed their expectations and had better than their share of luck that year.

[Kimmi]

Dave Dombrowski built a team that is on pace to win 111 games going into the final series before the ASB. You have to be happy with him

 

The criticism was never about how good this year's team is.

[notin]

+2.718281828459045235360287471352662497757247093699959574966967627724076630353547594571382178525166427427466391932003059921817413596629043572900334295260

 

You’re both being irrational. But mvp was more well-rounded...

[Bellhorn04]

Dombrowski may have overpaid for Kimbrel. But look at what Ben went through in pursuit of a closer. Bailey, Hanrahan, Melancon...that was a lot of hard work and transactions and some money gone before finally something went right and Koji took over in mid-2013.

[Spudboy]

The arguments that Ben was a good GM always remind me of prizefighters with broken noses and bleeding from cuts complaining that they should have won the fight because they claim that the other guy never laid a glove on them. The assertion is ridiculous.

 

Lol.

 

But you do have to admit he was good at getting good projections!!!!!!!

[Spudboy]

You’re both being irrational. But mvp was more well-rounded...

 

I am the most well rounded as I like to eat my pie.

[Slasher9]

The arguments that Ben was a good GM always remind me of prizefighters with broken noses and bleeding from cuts complaining that they should have won the fight because they claim that the other guy never laid a glove on them. The assertion is ridiculous.

 

Let me know when that prizefighter is on a duck boat through the streets of Boston.

While on the subject of duck boats...When DD is on one he can stop being Ben’s coffee boy....

[notin]

Dombrowski may have overpaid for Kimbrel. But look at what Ben went through in pursuit of a closer. Bailey, Hanrahan, Melancon...that was a lot of hard work and transactions and some money gone before finally something went right and Koji took over in mid-2013.

 

To be fair, Bailey and Hanrahan got hurt. If nothing else, when it comes to acquiring injured closets, both GMs have a lot in common...

[Dojji]

The thing about a 5 year plan is that it takes 5 years.

 

The thing about a 5 year plan in a major media market is that you never GET 5 years.

 

Cherington chose the wrong plan and then executed it poorly -- or did I miss that rush of young promising stud arms we had that were about to break through to the big league roster in the following 3 seasons and take the universe by storm?

 

He'd had 4 years of that 5. and despite the fluky WS we were not particularly close to a revolutionary youth movement in the rotation where we needed it most. Not were we close to winning that next World Series that is always ownership's goal.

 

Quite frankly the 5 year plan failed so spectacularly that ownership didn't need the fifth and final year to know that this wasn't going to turn around. The youth movement was nowhere to be seen on the pitching side of the ball. We had some nice ballplayers on the offensive side, but you can't win a 5 year plan by only staffing your positions.

 

If you can't develop pitchers from the farm, and Cherington's track record of doing this is very, VERY bad, then you can't develop from the farm and you NEED to be a buyer in free agency. Cherington was refusing to do that. He was failing to crap and refusing to get off the pot. He was replaced by someone who saw reality rather than being blinded by a failed plan. It's really just that simple.

[mvp 78]

Sale would be part of the 2016 pitching staff. I don't know who the closer would have been, but it wouldn't have been Kimbrel.

 

And I would hope that Ben would stick with the 'not signing pitchers over 30 to big contracts' philosophy.

Ben would have traded for Sale a year early?

[Slasher9]

Spending $31 x 7 was f***ing dumb and may go down as the worst contract of all time.

I bet Ben would have signed Cueto instead and saved us $100MM....

[a700hitter]

Spending $31 x 7 was f***ing dumb and may go down as the worst contract of all time.

I bet Ben would have signed Cueto instead and saved us $100MM....

He should have re-signed Lester and saved us $150 million, but he didn't, because he knew jackshit about pitching.

[Dojji]

Lowballing Lester was unforgivable. I have no doubt we could have landed Porcello in another trade. Having Lester and Porcello would have been a great start at rebuilding the rotation. It was a total whiff to lose out on a steady dependable ace starter. There was no reason to lowball the man. He was worth the money he was asking.

 

Imagine having Lester instead of Price right now, and for far less money. Yeah, that one's directly on Cherington.

[mvp 78]

Whoever it was, f*** the guy that let Lester go...

[Slasher9]

Whoever it was, f*** the guy that let Lester go...

 

Agreed.

[reYoukilis]

Lowballing Lester was unforgivable. I have no doubt we could have landed Porcello in another trade. Having Lester and Porcello would have been a great start at rebuilding the rotation. It was a total whiff to lose out on a steady dependable ace starter. There was no reason to lowball the man. He was worth the money he was asking.

 

Imagine having Lester instead of Price right now, and for far less money. Yeah, that one's directly on Cherington.

I'm going to have to have proof on that one. If you're right I'll no longer stick up for Cherington because I thought he did a good job whos talent he drafted turned out to be good picks, including Shaw. I also don't think he was responsible for Panda or Hanley, but was pressured into it for lack of patience.

[jacksonianmarch]

Spending $31 x 7 was f***ing dumb and may go down as the worst contract of all time.

I bet Ben would have signed Cueto instead and saved us $100MM....

 

Price is giving you some value. I think the Ellsbury and Pujols contracts are far worse. Those guys turned into either a sub replacement level player (Pujols) or a tin man who stopped being productive in Ells

[Nick]

Price is giving you some value. I think the Ellsbury and Pujols contracts are far worse. Those guys turned into either a sub replacement level player (Pujols) or a tin man who stopped being productive in Ells

 

What about that 5 year $95M to Sandoval? f*** DD.

[a700hitter]

What about that 5 year $95M to Sandoval? f*** DD.

Panda was a Ben signing.

[moonslav59]

As bad as the Sox pitching prospects have beenas far back as Rheo's last few years, other GMs sure have fallen in love with many of them.

 

Kelly was a big piece in geting us AGon (AGon enabled the Dodger dump trade to happen.)

 

Kopech helped us get Sale.

 

Espinoza got us Pom

 

Logan Allen helped towards Kimbrel.

 

Nogasek helped on A Reed

 

Frank Montas, J Aro, Ranaudo, Alex Wilson, Pennington and others.