The 2018 Bullpen Season Thread

[cp176]

You have no right to offend him with your stats!

It's 2018 for cryin' out loud!

 

#himtoo.

 

beauty of the internet isn't huh - you get to run your mouth whenever you want even when your bell isn't chimed. You can kiss my ass.

[cp176]

You’re talking about him being average for 20 games in the OF? So that shouts down two years of data? Are you kidding me?

 

 

Guess i am - Thought I read that he hasn't always been considered this bad.

[cp176]

fair response. his splits so far this year do indicate he hits better when playing LF vs DH.

personally I am happy with JDM DHing most games and outfield of the B's. but I am also on record stating JBj is my starting CFer getting 1 single every 10 AB's.......

 

I just tried to answer your question Slasher and see what I did. I poked the "defend all things statistical crowd".

[oldtimer]

Here's what I don't understand about JBJ's struggles at the plate:

 

This guy isn't always a lousy hitter. He's had spells when he looked like Ted Williams reincarnated, so we have video of him being successful. With all the data that's available I can't understand why he and the coaching staff aren't looking at that data, seeing what he does when he's struggling, seeing what he did when he was hitting, and getting him to replicate what he was doing when he was successful.

 

You're being too logical. What should happen and what has happened are two different things. JBJ has obviously not learned after what must have been many sessions with the coaches. Since JBJ appears to be athletic, one has to believe his mind is where the problem is. Sorry for him but the time to produce was at the beginning of the season and he has not and has appeared to be overmatched and pathetic.

[Maxbialystock]

My eyes tell me that JDM is playing better defense now than he did in ST and earlier in the season. That's not to say that having him in LF and moving Beni to CF improves our defense...it doesn't. It weakens the defense in two positions.

 

Let's face it. This team's infield defense isn't good. Devers defense is horrid - he may get better with time but how well he plays in 2020 does us no good in 2018. Bogaerts is what he is - mediocre for a SS. Nunez isn't anyone's answer for a full time 2B. The only infielder who's good at his position is Moreland when he's at 1B, which is about half the time.

 

Given all of that I find it imperative that we keep an outstanding outfield even when it hurts run production. Just as I've said that there are two ways to win a game - by scoring a lot of runs or by holding the other team to very few runs - there are two ways to lose a game too, by giving up a lot of runs or by not scoring many runs.

 

Personally I like the strategy of trying to hold the other team to as few runs as possible and trying to scratch out whatever runs we can but your results may differ.

 

The only viable defense for keeping JBJ in CF is that the Sox have won games with him out there. I disagree completely that a great outfield can compensate for a mediocre infield. What compensates is the great hitting by the top six guys--sometimes 5 and sometimes 7--in the lineup. JBJ and both catchers can't hit spit, and Nunez so far is subpar for him. It is false to say the Sox have been "scratching out runs" this year when they are 2d in MLB in runs scored.

 

I think the law of diminishing returns will overtake him this year and maybe this spring. His WAR ratings for the last five years, 2014 (when he was our regular CF) to 2018, have been and are--

 

.6

2.2

5.3

2.8

-.3

 

Oh, and I would take Devers and his "horrid" defense over JBJ every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

[Spudboy]

And yet the Sox have won over 70% of their games with that exact scenario...

 

The guy clearly said over 162 games.

[Spudboy]

beauty of the internet isn't huh - you get to run your mouth whenever you want even when your bell isn't chimed. You can kiss my ass.

 

lol

[SoxnCycles]

beauty of the internet isn't huh - you get to run your mouth whenever you want even when your bell isn't chimed. You can kiss my ass.

 

You can dish it, but can't take it.

I'm stunned...

[Maxbialystock]

Pedroia's return should help. I prefer Moreland at 1B, Hanley at DH, and JDM in LF than sending no-hit JBJ up to the plate. That said, Benitendi isn't exactly lighting the world on fire either. It's easy to overlook his struggles because they are normal, whereas JBJ's are catastrophic.

 

Back to the bullpen - Heath Hembree is my new goat. I did not like what I saw from him last night at all. Hopefully our man Thornburg comes back soon!!!

 

I like Moreland at 1B and JBJ on the bench too. I think Hembree has good stuff, but lacks command and, in tough spots, confidence. He walked two guys last night after getting 1-2 counts. And that balk spoke volumes about his state of mind. But I would still rather have in the bullpen than Johnson. I wouldn't mind seeing Poyner back, for that matter.

[cp176]

lol

 

couldn't help myself - lol

[User Name]

You're being too logical. What should happen and what has happened are two different things. JBJ has obviously not learned after what must have been many sessions with the coaches. Since JBJ appears to be athletic, one has to believe his mind is where the problem is. Sorry for him but the time to produce was at the beginning of the season and he has not and has appeared to be overmatched and pathetic.

 

JBJ's hitting problems aren't all mental. He has high-maintenance hitting mechanics, and his swing can get loopy. That's a dangerous combo for a MLer. You can get away with struggling with one aspect of hitting, but not both.

[jung]

As I see it, the issue with our pen is that as we get closer to Kimbrel time, we are short of options. We seem to have a logjam of guys you would hand the ball in the 5th or 6th inning fairly confident. But 7th and 8th, not so much.

 

I do not blame tonight's Yankee game on Kimbrel. I have never liked bringing him into games with runners on though he did pretty well with it last year. I still think the dif between Kimbrel coming into a clean inning and Kimbrel coming into an inning with runners on would suggest you want to have him close wherever possible.

 

I like Hembree though he has lots of detractors. Seems to me that you just need to be careful how much Hembree is used. Keep him fresh and he is pretty good I think. Smith seems up and down. I like Kelly. He at least seems confident. Don't know how you can pitch in the 8th inning if you are not confident. Barnes to me is a surprise package. Not really sure what you are going to get. Wish we were not having so many issues with starters as Valazquez would be fine. But somebody is always skipping a start and Valasquez gets used there. Johnson has turned into a surprise package as well.

 

Innings are the killer for the contemporary pen. Starters generally leave too many innings out there to cover and the better teams can cover them.

 

This is likely a good enough pen for the regular season in what is a weak league this year. Post season could be another story unless Thornburg definitely comes back and comes back making contributions. I would be looking for an arm if I were Dealin Dave unless I were certain that Thornburg was going to come back and contribute. Maybe somebody who could spot start and work out of the pen....like Valasquez. Can use another Valasquez I think. Johnson could have been that. But I am less confident about Johnson at this point.

[Oscars]

The higher the pressure, the less I like Barnes

[Hitch]

I just tried to answer your question Slasher and see what I did. I poked the "defend all things statistical crowd".

 

And yet on another thread you couldn't help having another stab yourself.

 

Never trust those eyes! You know better than that. Your tv could be tilted.

 

This site has now become a constant argument of pettiness between modern stat based fans and more old school 'eye' fans.

 

Both have their place. I wish everyone would shut the f*** up about it so we could go back to slagging off the hitters, the pitching, the management and the FO decisions.

 

 

Edit to add: Sorry if my last line seems hostile specifically to you. It's more a general feeling of annoyance about the pettiness from all directions than anything aimed particularly at you.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Hitch

[oldtimer]

As I see it, the issue with our pen is that as we get closer to Kimbrel time, we are short of options. We seem to have a logjam of guys you would hand the ball in the 5th or 6th inning fairly confident. But 7th and 8th, not so much.

 

I do not blame tonight's Yankee game on Kimbrel. I have never liked bringing him into games with runners on though he did pretty well with it last year. I still think the dif between Kimbrel coming into a clean inning and Kimbrel coming into an inning with runners on would suggest you want to have him close wherever possible.

 

I like Hembree though he has lots of detractors. Seems to me that you just need to be careful how much Hembree is used. Keep him fresh and he is pretty good I think. Smith seems up and down. I like Kelly. He at least seems confident. Don't know how you can pitch in the 8th inning if you are not confident. Barnes to me is a surprise package. Not really sure what you are going to get. Wish we were not having so many issues with starters as Valazquez would be fine. But somebody is always skipping a start and Valasquez gets used there. Johnson has turned into a surprise package as well.

 

Innings are the killer for the contemporary pen. Starters generally leave too many innings out there to cover and the better teams can cover them.

 

This is likely a good enough pen for the regular season in what is a weak league this year. Post season could be another story unless Thornburg definitely comes back and comes back making contributions. I would be looking for an arm if I were Dealin Dave unless I were certain that Thornburg was going to come back and contribute. Maybe somebody who could spot start and work out of the pen....like Valasquez. Can use another Valasquez I think. Johnson could have been that. But I am less confident about Johnson at this point.

 

The Sox do have a BP problem. Give the Yankees a lot of credit, they are tough outs throughout the lineup and bring the worst aspect of our pen to the fore. We saw it with Hembree, who has a couple of pitches, and once under pressure, no lead is safe with him. Barnes is very similar to Henbree as neither have a lot of out pitches to fall back on, whereas Kelly has more variety.

 

Cora was forced to use Kimbrel to get out of a jam last night. With runners at 1st and 3rd, there was no room for error when he came in. Ask yourself what are the two best pitches for Kimbrel. The knuckle curve and the fastball thrown high and just about the zone. With a man on third in a one run game, the knuckle curve was taken off the table for fear of a passed ball. Kimbrel is not immune to pressure and his first fastballs were slightly outside the zone, so he was limited to thrown a fasball over the plate and the Yankee hiitters knew it. After the triple, the game was in high jeopardy for the Sox, but Kimbrel was faced with the same situation and threw the fastball over the plate and Judge was ready.

 

Right now, the pen is not satisfactory as we have Kelly and beyond him and Kimbrel, we don't have reliable guys to bring in. Certainly Johnson has not been a guy we can rely on and Hembree has beeen very hittable. Barnes has been better but also is not the most reliable pitcher under pressure as he loses the plate.

 

Hope that Thornburg can help with the situation. The Sox offense did its job last night only to be let down mainly by the pen.

[notin]

The guy clearly said over 162 games.

 

So because he said they can't win, they haven't been winning?

 

I would disagree with the premise from the outset. It was a sweeping generalization that took into account nothing else about the team...

[jacksonianmarch]

Kimbrel was going on scouting report vs Gardner. You get him out with hard stuff up. I’m not sure why he went fastball with Judge 1-2. Judge has improved his ability to hit breaking pitches, but he’s always been a dead red hitter.

[Station 13]

Kimbrel was going on scouting report vs Gardner. You get him out with hard stuff up. I’m not sure why he went fastball with Judge 1-2. Judge has improved his ability to hit breaking pitches, but he’s always been a dead red hitter.

 

Kimbrel is still finding himself this year after having no spring training. His command is still very off. He paints last year and had a curve that is wipeout.

[dgalehouse]

Despite the loss , one thing to store in memory for the future ; Stanton looked totally overmatched against Kimbrel. That may come up again going forward.

[jacksonianmarch]

Despite the loss , one thing to store in memory for the future ; Stanton looked totally overmatched against Kimbrel. That may come up again going forward.

 

Most hitters are overmatched vs Kimbrel. If Kimbrel is on and mixing in his breaking ball, he is nearly unhittable.

[Maxbialystock]

Kimbrel was going on scouting report vs Gardner. You get him out with hard stuff up. I’m not sure why he went fastball with Judge 1-2. Judge has improved his ability to hit breaking pitches, but he’s always been a dead red hitter.

 

Baloney. 7 straight fast balls is inviting disaster, especially against an experienced hitter like Gardner. The only, repeat, only way Kimbrel is effective is when he mixes the knuckle curve with the fast ball, which is exactly what he did to K Gregoria and Stanton last night. Judge got one knuckle curve, a strike, and the rest were fast balls.

[Maxbialystock]

Most hitters are overmatched vs Kimbrel. If Kimbrel is on and mixing in his breaking ball, he is nearly unhittable.

 

But you just said he didn't need the knuckle curve against Gardner. Which is it?

[jung]

IMO the reason Kimbrel needs clean innings is because if he does not immediately get strike calls with that FB or even swing and miss with it to his satisfaction, he is going to keep throwing it regardless of the value of mixing pitches. He is going to keep throwing it until he is satisfied that he has it where he wants it to be.

 

If he has runners on that by itself can be a problem because he might walk somebody or at least the more memorable instances, give up a home run.

 

So he is fine coming into innings with runners on if that FB is terrific right out of the box or I should say to his satisfaction right out of the box. If not, he needs a few pitches and maybe even a batter or two to get in what he considers "his" groove. If he comes in with runners on, that is an issue. IMO, either he cures himself of that or you have to bring him into clean innings and give him room to work it out.

[Bellhorn04]

If Kimbrel can't pitch in the 8th or with men on base it kind of diminishes his greatness a wee bit, doesn't it? Rivera never seemed to have much trouble with those situations.

[moonslav59]

Kimbrel is one of the players I least worry about.

[Bellhorn04]

Kimbrel is one of the players I least worry about.

 

Same, but he's been a bit shaky of late.

[Jasonbay44]

If Kimbrel can't pitch in the 8th or with men on base it kind of diminishes his greatness a wee bit, doesn't it? Rivera never seemed to have much trouble with those situations.

 

I mean, if we are comparing him to Mariano in the first place, that's probably a good thing. There is a lot of closers/relievers who struggle coming in with men on base.

[jung]

I think the Sox are going to have to continue to call on Kimbrel for the 8th in some cases almost regardless of the result. No matter what the stats say, we don't have anything like a settled pen at the moment. I would give the 8th to Kelly in most cases. Probably flip flop barnes and Hembree for the 7th unless Valasquez is ready to go. I have little faith in Smith at this point though he could move into later innings quickly if he succeeds in stints in the 6th and 7th. No clue what to do with Johnson at this point.

[oldtimer]

I think the Sox are going to have to continue to call on Kimbrel for the 8th in some cases almost regardless of the result. No matter what the stats say, we don't have anything like a settled pen at the moment. I would give the 8th to Kelly in most cases. Probably flip flop barnes and Hembree for the 7th unless Valasquez is ready to go. I have little faith in Smith at this point though he could move into later innings quickly if he succeeds in stints in the 6th and 7th. No clue what to do with Johnson at this point.

 

Assuming Thornburg comes up sometime soon, who leaves? Is it Hembree or Johnson or another candidate? We really do need to strengthen the BP as evidenced by the kind of meltdown we are having against the Yankees. Getting beat is one thing but doing it like Hembree did it is hard to forgive.

[SoxnCycles]

If Kimbrel can't pitch in the 8th or with men on base it kind of diminishes his greatness a wee bit, doesn't it? Rivera never seemed to have much trouble with those situations.

 

Yup, I'm not rushing to throw a lot of money at him, if his every appearance has to be just so, or he fails.