Astros Success

[oldtimer]

Any takeaways from the Astro's world series win and how they accomplished it?

 

The Astros were in a position to draft very well over the last few years and got Bregman, Correa, Springer and Gurriel

 

The Astros have an MVP caliber 2nd baseman in Altuve

 

The Astros have an experienced and capable DH in Beltran

 

The Astros spent the money and got the best SP (Verlander) available at the last minute

 

The Astros got McCann who helped them a lot

 

Interesting for those who claim lineup posiitioning doesn't matter. The Astros stacked their lineup with the first 5 doing the bulk of the damage. Also note they have a low strikeout rate.

 

So, the Sox draft position will not allow them to build up the way the Astros have. We got Castillo and they got Gurriel. We on paper had better relief pitching and possibly better starting pitching top to bottom but they are the best hitting team and can make up for the pitching deficit.

 

So we get Cora and hope that some of the hitting success of the Astros can be transferred to our young guys. Lets not get too wound up about power hitters with long uppercut swings. The Dodgers had those and they were striking out at a high rate against good pitching. Lets get contact hitters with some power, like Nunez.

[Bellhorn04]

It's the second championship in a row for teams that used the 'Tank and Rebuild' approach.

[illinoisredsox]

It's the second championship in a row for teams that used the 'Tank and Rebuild' approach.

 

A mode that would never be tolerated in Boston.

[cp176]

A mode that would never be tolerated in Boston.

 

I'm sure glad of that.

[sk7326]

The Astros were old and talentless without a super loyal fan base.

 

They went through a massive rebuild. I don't use the word tank - it is the correct decision that playing a promising kid is better than a mediocre veteran. They knew they would not be good for 3 years and made all their decisions with that in mind.

 

The Red Sox have never really bottomed out that way - nor could they. There have been a few awful seasons sprinkled in - but they were awful due to decisions not working out ... not kids getting reps.

 

I am not sure there are many larger lessons - the teams are not very far apart. Red Sox just need to get better in a few places, but Sox are in the same cohort as the Astros.

[fxkatt]

You might say that the Astros success also revolved around their Latino position players' cohesion and spirit. At times it seemed that the Series was between the Latinos and the Whites (ha)

 

One thing that really impressed me was the way the Astro hitters attacked the ball. And doing so while striking out very few times, given the level of the pitching on LA.

 

And what a super clutch hitter in George Springer.. who happened also to deliver the most clutch post season "interview." To think the guy was 5'2" tall and weighted under 100 when he made his high school team.

[sk7326]

You might say that the Astros success also revolved around their Latino position players' cohesion and spirit. At times it seemed that the Series was between the Latinos and the Whites (ha)

 

One thing that really impressed me was the way the Astro hitters attacked the ball. And doing so while striking out very few times, given the level of the pitching on LA.

 

And what a super clutch hitter in George Springer.. who happened also to deliver the most clutch post season "interview." To think the guy was 5'2" tall and weighted under 100 when he made his high school team.

 

And Springer was awful in the ALCS ... clutchiness changed

[sk7326]

The big lesson is that the postseason is awesome - but yes, a crapshoot. The Astros won the games - and winning titles is why you do this. But this shows the fragility - and luck you need to win the 11-12 games.

[Jack Flap]

I'm sure glad of that.

 

If we were ever in a position that called for a complete rebuild, I would hope the front office would recognize it and act accordingly. Luckily we haven't had to face a situation like that, though I think we'd be in a bit better position today if we'd gone for more of a rebuild-on-the-fly approach (the way the Yankees just did) in 2014-15.

[sk7326]

If we were ever in a position that called for a complete rebuild, I would hope the front office would recognize it and act accordingly. Luckily we haven't had to face a situation like that, though I think we'd be in a bit better position today if we'd gone for more of a rebuild-on-the-fly approach (the way the Yankees just did) in 2014-15.

 

We kind of did in 2014-15

[harmony]

The Astros were old and talentless without a super loyal fan base.

 

They went through a massive rebuild. I don't use the word tank - it is the correct decision that playing a promising kid is better than a mediocre veteran. They knew they would not be good for 3 years and made all their decisions with that in mind.

 

The Red Sox have never really bottomed out that way - nor could they. There have been a few awful seasons sprinkled in - but they were awful due to decisions not working out ... not kids getting reps.

 

I am not sure there are many larger lessons - the teams are not very far apart. Red Sox just need to get better in a few places, but Sox are in the same cohort as the Astros.

In the down years the Astros resisted the temptation to sign veterans to attain transient mediocrity and instead planned for the future.

 

Houston has been rewarded for its deferred gratification.

[fxkatt]

And Springer was awful in the ALCS ... clutchiness changed

 

Thank god for Verlander in that series, or we would have had to tolerate a Yank-Dodger Series. I much preferred this series, and this winner.

 

And we can say we were beaten by the BEST in the playoffs.

[harmony]

Sports Illustrated called it in this 2014 cover story:

 

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/10/mlb-world-series-astros-sports-illustrated-cover-2014

[SoxnCycles]

Sports Illustrated called it in this 2014 cover story:

 

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/10/mlb-world-series-astros-sports-illustrated-cover-2014

 

Pretty amazing.

[sk7326]

In the down years the Astros resisted the temptation to sign veterans to attain transient mediocrity and instead planned for the future.

 

Houston has been rewarded for its deferred gratification.

 

This

[Spudboy]

It's the second championship in a row for teams that used the 'Tank and Rebuild' approach.

 

So why fret over the impending "Cliff".

 

Especially with the Sox budget.

[Bellhorn04]

Pretty amazing.

 

That is amazing. A lot of their other predictions not so much.

[Spudboy]

A mode that would never be tolerated in Boston.

 

Not so sure about that.

 

The Celtics did not exactly "tank" as such but they purged the roster to rebuild and now it is all coming together for them.

 

All the while the fan base remained loyal.

 

Of course Danny Ainge probably has a s***-ton more cred in this town than Dombrowski.

[a700hitter]

A mode that would never be tolerated in Boston.

We already finished last in 3 years in 4 seasons, so finishing last has been tolerated. Unfortunately, our FO did it the wrong way. They did this while still managing to spend $200 million on annual payroll and doling out a number of budget choking long term deals. If you are sending out last place teams, payroll should be preserved.

[Spudboy]

We already finished last in 3 years in 4 seasons, so finishing last has been tolerated. Unfortunately, our FO did it the wrong way. They did this while still managing to spend $200 million on annual payroll and doling out a number of budget choking long term deals. If you are sending out last place teams, payroll should be preserved.

 

Yes Sir.

 

In that light the Sox have been an embarrassment.

[harmony]

Back on the old Boston Globe forum Houston was criticized for a baseball-low $44.5 million payroll in 2014 despite receiving revenue-sharing funds from other clubs. Critics contended the Astros should not receive revenue sharing if they weren't going to spend it on personnel.

 

I drew the analogy to the person who sets aside savings instead of living paycheck to paycheck. Those savings come in handy at the proper time.

 

Houston was in a position to acquire Justin Verlander (and Josh Reddick, Brian McCann and Carlos Beltran) when many other teams weren't.

[Jack Flap]

We kind of did in 2014-15

 

Not to get too far afield, but I do think it could have been executed better.

 

Miller/Rodriguez was the only real veteran-for-prospect deal we made. The Lackey trade was and remains horrible; Lester to the A's was not as bad, but it, and the Cards deal, were clearly based on the organization's (unrealistic, as it turned out) belief that they would be able to contend in 2015. We'd have been better off getting the best prospects we could for both of those guys and for any other veterans with value (Uehara comes to mind).

 

I felt coming into 2015 that we were probably still at least a year away from being true contenders, and all we got out of denying that fact and insisting on trying to "compete every year" was an 84-loss season and residual contracts like Porcello (2 mediocre years out of 3 so far), Hanley (ditto), and Sandoval that are hampering our payroll and roster flexibility now that we are in a position to compete.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Jack Flap

[notin]

The Astros also held on to nearly all their good prospects. Chris Russo on MLB Network ripped them for doinh nothing at the trade deadline last year...

[notin]

We already finished last in 3 years in 4 seasons, so finishing last has been tolerated. Unfortunately, our FO did it the wrong way. They did this while still managing to spend $200 million on annual payroll and doling out a number of budget choking long term deals. If you are sending out last place teams, payroll should be preserved.

 

It was tolerated? By who?

[sk7326]

Not to get too far afield, but I do think it could have been executed better.

 

Miller/Rodriguez was the only real veteran-for-prospect deal we made. The Lackey trade was and remains horrible; Lester to the A's was not as bad, but it, and the Cards deal, were clearly based on the organization's (unrealistic, as it turned out) belief that they would be able to contend in 2015. We'd have been better off getting the best prospects we could for both of those guys and for any other veterans with value (Uehara comes to mind).

 

I felt coming into 2015 that we were probably still at least a year away from being true contenders, and all we got out of denying that fact and insisting on trying to "compete every year" was an 84-loss season and residual contracts like Porcello (2 mediocre years out of 3 so far), Hanley (ditto), and Sandoval that are hampering our payroll and roster flexibility now that we are in a position to compete.

 

OThey screwed up the sell-off in 2014 by trying to add major leaguers - I agree. But what I was referring to more was that they turned their team over to younger players over those years, the way the Yankees did. They had a couple of last place finishes where they played younger players ... but they also were still trying to win. The Yankees were certainly trying to win as well.

 

Moreover - I have to push back on this idea that the Astros and Red Sox are galaxies apart here - the teams are fairly close.

[Bellhorn04]

It was tolerated? By who?

 

Tolerate is an interesting word. In one of the more extreme definitions, if something didn't kill you, you tolerated it.

[illinoisredsox]

It was tolerated? By who?

 

There's also a huge difference between an 84 loss season (which will rarely net you last place) and stringing 3 consecutive seasons of 106, 107 and 111 losses.

[a700hitter]

It was tolerated? By who?

You make my point for me. They still have millions of fans, fill Fenway and made tons of money. They were no worse for the wear. In the end, we have no choice but to not go to the game, and Red Sox fans are diehard fans. So to say that a rebuild would not be tolerated for the Red Sox is bogus.

[a700hitter]

Tolerate is an interesting word. In one of the more extreme definitions, if something didn't kill you, you tolerated it.

Excellent point. And Red Sox fans will remain loyal until their dying breaths.

[harmony]

The Astros' story from back when:

 

https://www.si.com/longform/astros/index.html