Fire alex cora

[S5Dewey]

And do you have any empirical evidence that he is doing it incorrectly?

 

Equally important, is there any empirical evidence that he's doing it incorrectly OR correctly?

[fxkatt]

Well, I think the MLB season is too long... the NBA also. So, I have a hard time blaming Cora for his resting philosophy.

 

BUT back in the 1950s (oh they were oh so un-athletic compared to today's players) starters would finish games routinely, sometimes with 130-155 pitches thrown. So, what we're talking about here is not so much resting as protecting an investment. This may not be Cora's decision, but the owner's. And this policy has actually made pitchers tire much more easily than they did back in that out-of-shape era when their determination to finish what they had started worked out well for them.

[jad]

Correlations may not be causation, but they are often accepted as evidence, and they do influence a lot of thinking in baseball.

 

You seem to prefer taking the position that Cora and the team have no idea what they're doing, in spite of the credentials, resources and success they have. You're not going to accept any evidence at all that's contrary to your position. You're just wasting people's time even asking for evidence.

 

As evidence of that, it seems to be a widely accepted fact that the reason the Red Sox pitching staff got off to a slow start is because they didn't get enough work in ST.

 

People want to take the fact that the Starting Five averaged 6 fewer IP in ST in 2019 than in 2018 and blame that on the slow start by our starters.

 

I've been skeptical all along that 6 fewer IP (the average for our 5 starters) over the ~30 days of ST would cause our starters to be ineffective in their first 2-3 starts but I don't have any evidence to the contrary. Therefore I'm not willing to blame the slow start on the fewer IP without more evidence.

 

In short, I'm not willing to allow correlation to determine causation. But I seem to be the only one here who isn't. Jus' sayin'.

 

Exactly. And they made up those six innings early in the season and STILL did not turn it around to 2018 levels. So the anti-Cora-ST-philosophy faction now must argue that having less work in ST somehow caused a pall to fall over the pitching staff that carried over for at least two months of the season and somehow affected hitters (but only the hitters who aren't doing well, not those who are above their normal productivity) as well.

 

The reason the RS are where they are is because they've lost as many games as they've won. It's a reason similar to the one that explains why some posters don't accept my opinions: the reason you disagree w/ me is because you're wrong.

[Kimmi]

That is accurate expression of the philosophy. However the current manager carried it to an absurdity by resting his pitchers at the start of spring training after they already had a several month layoff. The result is the team is in such a team hole that the odds do not favor that they can make up the difference. They may do so but that is wishful thinking. Moreover he is so committed to this philosophy that he has shown a tendency to rest better players against the better teams instead of against the weaker teams even when the matchups do not favor such a move.

 

There are many times when I have questioned why he is resting a certain player on a certain day. Or why he insists on resting 2-3 regular players on the same day. He did the same thing all last year, and it paid huge dividends.

 

It is fair to question what Cora is doing. For me, he has earned the benefit of the doubt.

[Kimmi]

It depends on ones definition of tired. The current manager doesn't rest players when they are tired or injured which would make sense but at pre determined intervals often against the players wishes.

 

The resting prevents the players from becoming tired and worn down.

[Kimmi]

Actually it isn't proof of anything. Any logician would tell you that "Correlation is not causation"

 

It has been proven, statistically, that resting players for the playoffs rather than going all out for home field advantage or to win the division (when there was only one wildcard) gave the team a better chance of winning in the postseason.

 

It's not quite the same thing, but rest matters.

[vegasbob]

The resting prevents the players from becoming tired and worn down.

 

I think my objection is when Cora refuses to PH a regular on his day off in the 8th or 9th inning when the sub-Mendoza line boys are up with RISP. Now in recent games, the bottom of the order has made strides above the .200 level, and the Betts, Beni's, JDM's, Chavis have failed significantly. Cora is getting whipsawed by his players .

[Elktonnick]

It has been proven, statistically, that resting players for the playoffs rather than going all out for home field advantage or to win the division (when there was only one wildcard) gave the team a better chance of winning in the postseason.

 

It's not quite the same thing, but rest matters.

 

Has it now? I don't recall seeing anything definitive about that. There well may be some correlation but that isn't the same as either proof or causality.

[Elktonnick]

And do you have any empirical evidence that he is doing it incorrectly?

 

Absolutely not but then again I am not that impressed with today's over reliance on sabermetrics. I just go by what experts like HOF pitchers Jim Palmer, John Smoltz and even Dennis Eckersley have said on televised broadcasts. Or what other former big league executives and former players have said on MLB radio with respect towards pitching.

 

Right now Boston is playing like crap. Except for Kimbrel and Kelly and Ian Kinsler at second base the cast of characters are the same. From my point of view the only variable was the current managers mismanagement of the pitching staff and his lineup since the outset of the season. Moreover I don't think because a manager happens to win the world series his first year that he suddenly is a baseball genius. The current manager is someone who everything he tried last year broke his way. This year the winds have changed and it seems every time he rolls the dice he comes up snake eyes.

[moonslav59]

Absolutely not but then again I am not that impressed with today's over reliance on sabermetrics. I just go by what experts like HOF pitchers Jim Palmer, John Smoltz and even Dennis Eckersley have said on televised broadcasts. Or what other former big league executives and former players have said on MLB radio with respect towards pitching.

 

Right now Boston is playing like crap. Except for Kimbrel and Kelly and Ian Kinsler at second base the cast of characters are the same. From my point of view the only variable was the current managers mismanagement of the pitching staff and his lineup since the outset of the season. Moreover I don't think because a manager happens to win the world series his first year that he suddenly is a baseball genius. The current manager is someone who everything he tried last year broke his way. This year the winds have changed and it seems every time he rolls the dice he comes up snake eyes.

 

We actually didn't have Eovaldi and Pearce this time last year, so the differences are:

 

No Kimbrel, Kinsler & Kelly

 

Added (since first half of last year):

 

Eovaldi, Pearce, Chavis, Brasier, Weber

[notin]

Absolutely not but then again I am not that impressed with today's over reliance on sabermetrics. I just go by what experts like HOF pitchers Jim Palmer, John Smoltz and even Dennis Eckersley have said on televised broadcasts. Or what other former big league executives and former players have said on MLB radio with respect towards pitching.

 

Right now Boston is playing like crap. Except for Kimbrel and Kelly and Ian Kinsler at second base the cast of characters are the same. From my point of view the only variable was the current managers mismanagement of the pitching staff and his lineup since the outset of the season. Moreover I don't think because a manager happens to win the world series his first year that he suddenly is a baseball genius. The current manager is someone who everything he tried last year broke his way. This year the winds have changed and it seems every time he rolls the dice he comes up snake eyes.

 

For every “expert” like Palmer or Eckersley who say one thing, there’s another “expert” who contradicts it.

 

The bottom like is Cora believes in testing his players. Have you seen how Sale has been in the postseason in 2016 and 2017? Granted, an injury certainly made the decision for Cora, but the idea was to keep his IP in the lower range.

 

Price, for example, was terrific last postseason. Before last season, he was a reputed “choker” in the postseason. Except one “expert” named Notin tried pointing out he already had well over 200 IP every time he pitched in the postseason. Last year - 176 regular season IP, terrific postseason. Did Jim Palmer miss that empirical data?

[Elktonnick]

For every “expert” like Palmer or Eckersley who say one thing, there’s another “expert” who contradicts it.

 

The bottom like is Cora believes in testing his players. Have you seen how Sale has been in the postseason in 2016 and 2017? Granted, an injury certainly made the decision for Cora, but the idea was to keep his IP in the lower range.

 

Price, for example, was terrific last postseason. Before last season, he was a reputed “choker” in the postseason. Except one “expert” named Notin tried pointing out he already had well over 200 IP every time he pitched in the postseason. Last year - 176 regular season IP, terrific postseason. Did Jim Palmer miss that empirical data?

 

I haven't heard any HOF pitchers contradict Palmer, Smoltz or Eckersley on this subject. If so I'd appreciate hearing who they are. I certainly would trust the opinions of those three gentlemen than any who offer a differing perspective on this forum.

[Bellhorn04]

I haven't heard any HOF pitchers contradict Palmer, Smoltz or Eckersley on this subject. If so I'd appreciate hearing who they are. I certainly would trust the opinions of those three gentlemen than any who offer a differing perspective on this forum.

 

It's pretty hard to conduct a debate using comments that were made on TV or radio broadcasts unless they were subsequently put in print. Are you able to document the exact comments that were made?

[Elktonnick]

It's pretty hard to conduct a debate using comments that were made on TV or radio broadcasts unless they were subsequently put in print. Are you able to document the exact comments that were made?

 

You just have to tune in to MLB radio or the Nat'l broadcasts to hear for yourself. Palmer only appears on the Orioles broadcast but he commented on it several times.

[notin]

I haven't heard any HOF pitchers contradict Palmer, Smoltz or Eckersley on this subject. If so I'd appreciate hearing who they are. I certainly would trust the opinions of those three gentlemen than any who offer a differing perspective on this forum.

 

 

It’s funny how we think the Hall of Famers carry more valid opinions than even non-HOF players. But if anything, most of them are in the Hall because their level of skill was at s level even unrelatable for most major leaguers

[Elktonnick]

It’s funny how we think the Hall of Famers carry more valid opinions than even non-HOF players. But if anything, most of them are in the Hall because their level of skill was at s level even unrelatable for most major leaguers

 

True but we are talking about pitching and HOF pitchers especially one with exceptionally long careers would be in a better position to have a knowledgeable position on the subject than someone else.

 

No matter how one feels about the issue. The Red Sox 2019 Spring Training regime was highly controversial. In my 65 plus years of following this team I don't recall a spring training more controversial than the past one. One point of interest, I do not follow the Dodgers so I genuinely don't know the answer but did the Dodgers give their rotation the rest during ST that Boston gave theirs. Like I said I don't know but I think not.

[moonslav59]

I hope they rest everyone more next spring- just so the snowbirds get bummed out and another controversy brews.

 

When we win it all, we'll bake a huge crow pie.

[TedWilliams101]

I wonder how much of this season is due to a lack of focus and sense of urgency (rather than IP). All ST it was 'oh it was a long postseason' and when the season started poorly Cora kept repeating 'we won the series last year guys'. Watching it you just cant help but think some guys are still on cruise control and maybe some just dont really care about winning...

 

Maybe it doesnt have an effect, but its a bad optic. Every season is different. Winning last year doesnt mean sh*t and everytime you hear the excuse it just makes me shake my head. I think Cora even said something with respect to BB... isnt working out too well now Cora...

[mvp 78]

I hope they rest everyone more next spring- just so the snowbirds get bummed out and another controversy brews.

 

When we win it all, we'll bake a huge crow pie.

 

Nah. Everyone being miserable makes these seasons painful.

[Slasher9]

WTF Cora almost found a way to blow last nights game.

putting barnes on the bump after blowing the game open in the top of the 8th was rookie.

[Bellhorn04]

WTF Cora almost found a way to blow last nights game.

putting barnes on the bump after blowing the game open in the top of the 8th was rookie.

 

Huh, why's that? Day off today, why wouldn't you use Barnes?

[Slasher9]

Huh, why's that? Day off today, why wouldn't you use Barnes?

 

i think we are all worried about the amount of innings we are looking at for our relievers this year. put colten/taylor/shawaryn in a game we are winning 8-2 in the 8th inning. they could use the work/experience.

Barnes/Workman are still out there if they get in trouble.

[mvp 78]

They are saving Shawaryn for a start on Thursday (undecided as yet, but I believe it's what they'll do).

[Bellhorn04]

i think we are all worried about the amount of innings we are looking at for our relievers this year. put colten/taylor/shawaryn in a game we are winning 8-2 in the 8th inning. they could use the work/experience.

Barnes/Workman are still out there if they get in trouble.

 

But what you said is that Cora almost blew the game by using Barnes.

[notin]

But what you said is that Cora almost blew the game by using Barnes.

 

 

Because Barnes wasn’t effective. Duh...

[Slasher9]

But what you said is that Cora almost blew the game by using Barnes.

 

you saw the rain when Barnes was pitching. no reason to bring him in there. he had zero grip on his CB and couldnt throw strikes.

let one of the mop up guys pitch that inning. if they get into trouble then you go to Barnes. to me it's dumb to burn an inning of Barnes in an 8-2 baseball game. we will need those bullets in other games. i dont know how else to explain it.

[Slasher9]

Because Barnes wasn’t effective. Duh...

 

he wasn't. but that wasnt my point on how it was a WTF Cora moment.

[Bellhorn04]

you saw the rain when Barnes was pitching. no reason to bring him in there. he had zero grip on his CB and couldnt throw strikes.

let one of the mop up guys pitch that inning. if they get into trouble then you go to Barnes. to me it's dumb to burn an inning of Barnes in an 8-2 baseball game. we will need those bullets in other games. i dont know how else to explain it.

 

Well, I totally disagree on this one.

 

It's not Cora's fault that the field conditions are s*****. And if Barnes is having trouble why wouldn't Brewer or Brasier or whoever have just as much trouble.

 

Cora was just trying to nail down a game we badly needed.

 

And maybe his thinking was influenced by the Cleveland game in the previous series where the pen gave up 7 runs in the last 2 innings...

[mvp 78]

Well, I totally disagree on this one.

 

It's not Cora's fault that the field conditions are s*****. And if Barnes is having trouble why wouldn't Brewer or Brasier or whoever have just as much trouble.

 

Cora was just trying to nail down a game we badly needed.

 

And maybe his thinking was influenced by the Cleveland game in the previous series where the pen gave up 7 runs in the last 2 innings...

 

Yup.

[Slasher9]

Well, I totally disagree on this one.

 

It's not Cora's fault that the field conditions are s*****. And if Barnes is having trouble why wouldn't Brewer or Brasier or whoever have just as much trouble.

 

Cora was just trying to nail down a game we badly needed.

 

And maybe his thinking was influenced by the Cleveland game in the previous series where the pen gave up 7 runs in the last 2 innings...

 

he was slow to react in the Cleveland game. you know that. so is this an over correction? then it still qualifies as WTF Cora.

if we can't even try to have our mop up guys eat an inning or 2 late in a game when we are up by 6 runs then our RP arms will certainly be dead by the end of the season.

but yes, it was a game we badly needed. for sure.