Fire alex cora

[Kimmi]

Personally, I saw Cora's quote earlier and was kind of surprised at it. I have mentioned before that on occasion it seemed to me that Cora is managing tomorrow's game or something on the weekend. You can only win the game you are playing and if burning a relief pitcher while you are 2 runs down in the 5th inning is not worth doing, find a new line of work. Part of the 14 runs scored by Cleveland were Alex getting ready for the Yankees. I didn't think Tito deserved his firing in Boston but that was the culmination of 40 other things out of his control. Cora has been regrettably for all of us and his team been snakebit by some situations which worked out well last year. Reversion to the mean is tough.

 

I completely agree with Cora's philosophy here. You manage the marathon, not the sprint. If a manager continually goes all out to win today's game, he will burn out his entire team by late August and September.

[illinoisredsox]

I completely agree with Cora's philosophy here. You manage the marathon, not the sprint. If a manager continually goes all out to win today's game, he will burn out his entire team by late August and September.

 

See Zimmer, Don, 1978

[a700hitter]

I completely agree with Cora's philosophy here. You manage the marathon, not the sprint. If a manager continually goes all out to win today's game, he will burn out his entire team by late August and September.

Now, being in a hole, he has lost that luxury of being able to give his players a little extra rest.

[Elktonnick]

Now, being in a hole, he has lost that luxury of being able to give his players a little extra rest.

 

Red Sox need to remember the first rule of holes; when in one stop digging

[SCM33]

How can you honestly blame Cora, when the bullpen is this bad?

[notin]

How can you honestly blame Cora, when the bullpen is this bad?

 

What did the bullpen do tonight?

[moonslav59]

What did the bullpen do tonight?

 

Stuck in Clownsville.

[oldtimer]

Red Sox need to remember the first rule of holes; when in one stop digging

 

When your up to your ass in alligators, its too late to drain the swamp.

[cp176]

When your up to your ass in alligators, its too late to drain the swamp.

 

This one seems appropriate! lol

[BowSox07]

Bullpen was fine last night. Seems when Sale pitches, the offense forgets how to hit a baseball ...Sale shouldn't be 1-7.

[Kimmi]

See Zimmer, Don, 1978

 

This season is a little before my time to know how Zimmer managed the team, but I see that the Sox had its largest lead of 10 games on July 8, and a 9 game lead on August 13. So if Zimmer was indeed going all out to win every game early, this would be Exhibit A on why not to do that.

 

Also, this season serves as one of many reminders that it's way too early to give up on the 2019 Sox.

[Bellhorn04]

See Zimmer, Don, 1978

 

To this point, the one thing I will say in Zimmer's defense is that he had a terrible bench to work with that year.

[Kimmi]

Now, being in a hole, he has lost that luxury of being able to give his players a little extra rest.

 

I disagree. Come August or September, that might be the case, but not before then. The philosophy is hard to accept sometimes, but it's the correct way to go.

[Elktonnick]

I disagree. Come August or September, that might be the case, but not before then. The philosophy is hard to accept sometimes, but it's the correct way to go.

 

Really Why do you say that. What empirical evidence is there to demonstrate that this philosophy is valid now it wouldn't be in August or the reverse if it is not valid in August it wouldn't be valid now.

[notin]

Really Why do you say that. What empirical evidence is there to demonstrate that this philosophy is valid now it wouldn't be in August or the reverse if it is not valid in August it wouldn't be valid now.

 

 

So you’re arguing for evidence that the players should not get any rest for the next two months? You want proof that rested is better than tired?

[Bellhorn04]

Really Why do you say that. What empirical evidence is there to demonstrate that this philosophy is valid now it wouldn't be in August or the reverse if it is not valid in August it wouldn't be valid now.

 

You know perfectly well there's no such empirical evidence. This is not exact science we're dealing with.

[Elktonnick]

You know perfectly well there's no such empirical evidence. This is not exact science we're dealing with.

 

Oh I thought the sabermetrics approach had empirical data for everything in baseball. This is a results oriented business. One could make a credible case that the results achieved thus far do not favor the conjecture that the current manager's philosophy has proven to be an effective one, unless one calls 1 game above 500 and 8.5 games behind an effective strategy.

[Elktonnick]

So you’re arguing for evidence that the players should not get any rest for the next two months? You want proof that rested is better than tired?

 

No that playing is better than not playing.

[Bellhorn04]

Oh I thought the sabermetrics approach had empirical data for everything in baseball. This is a results oriented business. One could make a credible case that the results achieved thus far do not favor the conjecture that the current manager's philosophy has proven to be an effective one, unless one calls 1 game above 500 and 8.5 games behind an effective strategy.

 

Here's the only empirical evidence I know of:

 

2017 Astros - used rest philosophy - won World Series.

2018 Red Sox - used rest philosophy - won World Series.

 

But I do not submit this as PROOF of anything.

[notin]

No that playing is better than not playing.

 

 

Exact same thing. Resting a player is not playing him. So you want proof that rested is better than tired?

[Kimmi]

Really Why do you say that. What empirical evidence is there to demonstrate that this philosophy is valid now it wouldn't be in August or the reverse if it is not valid in August it wouldn't be valid now.

 

I have none. Convince me otherwise.

[Kimmi]

Oh I thought the sabermetrics approach had empirical data for everything in baseball. This is a results oriented business. One could make a credible case that the results achieved thus far do not favor the conjecture that the current manager's philosophy has proven to be an effective one, unless one calls 1 game above 500 and 8.5 games behind an effective strategy.

 

It's not about the results achieved by the end of May. It's about the results achieved throughout the entire season. A big part of the 'resting' philosophy is that the team will likely lose a few games early in the season to benefit the W-L record in the long run.

[Elktonnick]

I have none. Convince me otherwise.

 

Do not need to my conjecture is as good as yours.

[Elktonnick]

It's not about the results achieved by the end of May. It's about the results achieved throughout the entire seasobut that is purely wishful thinkingn. A big part of the 'resting' philosophy is that the team will likely lose a few games early in the season to benefit the W-L record in the long run.

 

That is accurate expression of the philosophy. However the current manager carried it to an absurdity by resting his pitchers at the start of spring training after they already had a several month layoff. The result is the team is in such a team hole that the odds do not favor that they can make up the difference. They may do so but that is wishful thinking. Moreover he is so committed to this philosophy that he has shown a tendency to rest better players against the better teams instead of against the weaker teams even when the matchups do not favor such a move.

[Elktonnick]

Exact same thing. Resting a player is not playing him. So you want proof that rested is better than tired?

 

It depends on ones definition of tired. The current manager doesn't rest players when they are tired or injured which would make sense but at pre determined intervals often against the players wishes.

[Elktonnick]

Here's the only empirical evidence I know of:

 

2017 Astros - used rest philosophy - won World Series.

2018 Red Sox - used rest philosophy - won World Series.

 

But I do not submit this as PROOF of anything.

 

Actually it isn't proof of anything. Any logician would tell you that "Correlation is not causation"

[Bellhorn04]

Actually it isn't proof of anything. Any logician would tell you that "Correlation is not causation"

 

Correlations may not be causation, but they are often accepted as evidence, and they do influence a lot of thinking in baseball.

 

You seem to prefer taking the position that Cora and the team have no idea what they're doing, in spite of the credentials, resources and success they have. You're not going to accept any evidence at all that's contrary to your position. You're just wasting people's time even asking for evidence.

[moonslav59]

Can we wait until the end of the season to see, if the "rest plan" pays off?

 

I'm sure Cora, DD & Co. did not expect such a slow (and long) start to the season, and there's no way the extra rest in ST'ing is why we are playing poorly now.

 

If we win it all, my guess is, those who were against the resting philosophy will still claim it was a mistake.

[S5Dewey]

Correlations may not be causation, but they are often accepted as evidence, and they do influence a lot of thinking in baseball.

As evidence of that, it seems to be a widely accepted fact that the reason the Red Sox pitching staff got off to a slow start is because they didn't get enough work in ST.

 

People want to take the fact that the Starting Five averaged 6 fewer IP in ST in 2019 than in 2018 and blame that on the slow start by our starters.

 

I've been skeptical all along that 6 fewer IP (the average for our 5 starters) over the ~30 days of ST would cause our starters to be ineffective in their first 2-3 starts but I don't have any evidence to the contrary. Therefore I'm not willing to blame the slow start on the fewer IP without more evidence.

 

In short, I'm not willing to allow correlation to determine causation. But I seem to be the only one here who isn't. Jus' sayin'.

[notin]

It depends on ones definition of tired. The current manager doesn't rest players when they are tired or injured which would make sense but at pre determined intervals often against the players wishes.

 

 

And do you have any empirical evidence that he is doing it incorrectly?