Fire alex cora

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Cora played for Francona, and Tito was always known as a players' manager, a guy who took care of his men (even when fullgrown boys like Manny earned whatever static he deserved from the media, opponents, even teammates).

 

So maybe AC learned a bit about managing just from observing. Scheduled days off aren't a bad thing -- unless you're a fan who saved up and can only afford to attend one game, and your favorites aren't in the line-up.

 

I know some posters don't like this, but is it really just coincidence that the Red Sox have had losing records every single August of the Bloom Era... after what many fans, media, and especially players felt were insufficient reinforcements at the trade deadline.

[Duran Is The Man]

162 games in 180ish days is brutal. With no adrenaline, Yoshida probably isn’t the only one just worn down…

 

yeah....but doesn't every team play a "brutal" schedule? maybe all the Braves, Rays, Orioles, Dodgers and Rangers players are just conditioned better? no offense, but i think any coach/manager/player using this as an excuse is doing so to avoid saying that his players/team just aren't very good.

[moonslav59]

yeah....but doesn't every team play a "brutal" schedule? maybe all the Braves, Rays, Orioles, Dodgers and Rangers players are just conditioned better? no offense, but i think any coach/manager/player using this as an excuse is doing so to avoid saying that his players/team just aren't very good.

 

Actually, not all teams do play the same brutal schedule as the Sox.

 

Yes, same amount of games in about the same amount of days, but not the same brutal schedule, no.

[Duran Is The Man]

Further proof that more rest was needed.

 

those rest days were important. because if Cora hadn't given them all those "rest days" they would have finished even deeper in the AL East cellar.

[sk7326]

That 2013 team was widely believed to have "over performed," although I'm not fully sold on that point, and there were some other major additions to the 2018 season, beyond Cora.

JD was a huge add.

Mookie nearly doubled his fWAR from 2017 to 2018 (5.4>10.5)

Beni went from 1.5 to 4.9.

Bogey 3.1 to 4.4

Price nearly doubled his GS'd from 2017. (1.5 fWAR>2.4)

Porcello did much better than '17 (2.0>2.4)

Then, we added Nate & Pearce.

Now, maybe Cora had something to so with all these improvements by the same guys on the 2017 team, but I'm not giving him a big chunk of that credit.

 

Just JD, Nate & Pearce alone, made the two teams vastly different.

 

The thing between 2013 and 2014 was that they lost two 6-win players ... Ellsbury going to NY and Victorino turning into a pumpkin ... without any juice replacing them. I do think that replacing Bobby Valentine with a normal human being helped - but a reversal of injury luck played at least as big a role.

 

But the larger point is - Cora has done a nice job overall here. I don't see a case where he has squandered a roster. Now the Sox going in another direction is not some wild injustice ... but Cora will have plenty of suitors.

[moonslav59]

The thing between 2013 and 2014 was that they lost two 6-win players ... Ellsbury going to NY and Victorino turning into a pumpkin ... without any juice replacing them. I do think that replacing Bobby Valentine with a normal human being helped - but a reversal of injury luck played at least as big a role.

 

But the larger point is - Cora has done a nice job overall here. I don't see a case where he has squandered a roster. Now the Sox going in another direction is not some wild injustice ... but Cora will have plenty of suitors.

 

He's not going anywhere.

[notin]

yeah....but doesn't every team play a "brutal" schedule? maybe all the Braves, Rays, Orioles, Dodgers and Rangers players are just conditioned better? no offense, but i think any coach/manager/player using this as an excuse is doing so to avoid saying that his players/team just aren't very good.

 

No coach or manager said any such thing. I do think it’sa plausible theory and the trans you mentioned certainly have plenty of reasons to have adrenaline boosts to counter the long schedule somewhat…

[Old Red]

Cora has told JH, and the rest of the brain trust that he is not ready to be the GM yet. Sounds like he’s become JH RH man, and probably contributed to giving Bloom the boot, so good for him on that. He’s also going to help with the search for the next so called GM. End of year press conference today. I can hardly wait for the picking, grinning, and spinning.

[dgalehouse]

Cora has told JH, and the rest of the brain trust that he is not ready to be the GM yet. Sounds like he’s become JH RH man, and probably contributed to giving Bloom the boot, so good for him on that. He’s also going to help with the search for the next so called GM. End of year press conference today. I can hardly wait for the picking, grinning, and spinning.

 

I think there is often some conflict between the manager and the front office. There certainly seemed to be some between Cora and Bloom. Most managers do realize that they have to go along to get along , but it has to hurt to take the heat for things ( like rest days ) that are front office decisions.

[Bellhorn04]

I think there is often some conflict between the manager and the front office. There certainly seemed to be some between Cora and Bloom. Most managers do realize that they have to go along to get along , but it has to hurt to take the heat for things ( like rest days ) that are front office decisions.

 

Of course we don't really know what input Cora has into decisions like rest days.

 

My take on Cora's comments this year was that he was somewhat frustrated with the state of the roster he was handed by Bloom, and he thought maybe too much attention was being paid to the future and not enough to the present. He would have gotten along fine with a lot of us on that!

[dgalehouse]

Of course we don't really know what input Cora has into decisions like rest days.

 

My take on Cora's comments this year was that he was somewhat frustrated with the state of the roster he was handed by Bloom, and he thought maybe too much attention was being paid to the future and not enough to the present. He would have gotten along fine with a lot of us on that!

 

Sure, the manager would always like to have a little more to work with. I agree with living in the present. Whether you are a manager, player or a fan ; the current season is your biggest concern. The past is gone and the future is uncertain and never guaranteed.

[Old Red]

Cora back with the Red Sox, and Boone will be back with the Yankees. I would say both have good connections to the big boys up top.

[notin]

I think there is often some conflict between the manager and the front office. There certainly seemed to be some between Cora and Bloom. Most managers do realize that they have to go along to get along , but it has to hurt to take the heat for things ( like rest days ) that are front office decisions.

 

Pretty sure Cora is the one implementing the rest days. He was using them long before Bloom came along. And Farrell wasn’t so much for them despite working with a few metrics driven Sox front office types…

[moonslav59]

Pretty sure Cora is the one implementing the rest days. He was using them long before Bloom came along. And Farrell wasn’t so much for them despite working with a few metrics driven Sox front office types…

 

Agreed. Maybe the next guy can talk him out of it.

[Bellhorn04]

Agreed. Maybe the next guy can talk him out of it.

 

No, it will continue to be done and continue to drive you batty.

 

Devers played 156 in 2019 and 156 in 2021. That suggests Cora's number of scheduled rest days for Devers has been 6 or thereabouts.

[notin]

No, it will continue to be done and continue to drive you batty.

 

Devers played 156 in 2019 and 156 in 2021. That suggests Cora's number of scheduled rest days for Devers has been 6 or thereabouts.

 

The whole idea of giving a player the occasional day off isn’t a bad thing. Not sure why dgalehouse is trying to politicize it…

[mvp 78]

The whole idea of giving a player the occasional day off isn’t a bad thing. Not sure why dgalehouse is trying to politicize it…

 

Devers sits out once every 3 weeks. Time to get upset about it.

[moonslav59]

No, it will continue to be done and continue to drive you batty.

 

Devers played 156 in 2019 and 156 in 2021. That suggests Cora's number of scheduled rest days for Devers has been 6 or thereabouts.

 

6 is not excessive. 9 in 2023 is 2-3, too many. Plus, he started 2 games at DH. If a guy is hurt, I'm fine with as many days off as it takes.

 

I'm not going batty, nor do I think others are over this, but I do disagree with giving a 26 year old nine days off, plus two at DH, above the scheduled days off. What irked me the most is that he seemed to schedule these "rest days" way in advance, with no regard to who was hot or what handed pitchers was going the day of rest.

 

Devers was "rested" 9 days, but only 6 were vs a LHP. We faced 42 LH's SP'ers. It's not like Devers has horrible splits, but Cora did the same to players who do. It's that part that bugs me more than the total days off.

 

Now, to the total games started at a non DH position:

149 Devers

135 Dugo

115 Casas

105 Wong

84 Yoshida

82 Duran

79 Duvall

 

Most of these guys had injuries, really bad splits or DH'd a bit, so it's hard to read into "rest days" for any of them, but I don't think anyone came close to be tired out by excessive starts in the field.

[Bellhorn04]

6 is not excessive. 9 in 2023 is 2-3, too many. Plus, he started 2 games at DH. If a guy is hurt, I'm fine with as many days off as it takes.

 

I'm not going batty, nor do I think others are over this, but I do disagree with giving a 26 year old nine days off, plus two at DH, above the scheduled days off. What irked me the most is that he seemed to schedule these "rest days" way in advance, with no regard to who was hot or what handed pitchers was going the day of rest.

 

Devers was "rested" 9 days, but only 6 were vs a LHP. We faced 42 LH's SP'ers. It's not like Devers has horrible splits, but Cora did the same to players who do. It's that part that bugs me more than the total days off.

 

You're assuming that all 9 were "rest days" and none were health-related.

 

Scheduling mostly in advance makes sense to me.

[moonslav59]

You're assuming that all 9 were "rest days" and none were health-related.

 

No, I actually pointed out that if they were health related, it's okay.

 

"If a guy is hurt, I'm fine..."

[moonslav59]

Scheduling mostly in advance makes sense to me.

 

It's just as easy to plan on "a day off next week" and then adjust to the pitcher or situation.

 

Locking into a specific day offers what advantage?

[Bellhorn04]

It's just as easy to plan on "a day off next week" and then adjust to the pitcher or situation.

 

Locking into a specific day offers what advantage?

 

1) Spreads them out more evenly.

2) The schedule of opposing starting pitchers is not that easy to nail down, especially with teams using openers and such. Seems like you see "TBD" listed more and more.

[Bellhorn04]

1) Spreads them out more evenly.

2) The schedule of opposing starting pitchers is not that easy to nail down, especially with teams using openers and such. Seems like you see "TBD" listed more and more.

 

I'm oversimplifying, too. I'm sure Cora's approach is a tad more flexible than sitting Devers on the 15th of every month...

[notin]

Devers sits out once every 3 weeks. Time to get upset about it.

 

The notion of giving a player an occasional day off and actually getting some action for the Major League ballplayer on the bench seems like a good thing for multiple reasons. I know a lot of fans complain, but I think it has to happen to some degree.

 

I just don’t know we can’t give Cora credit for it as opposed to insisting it was all Bloom and Cora was forced to endure it like it was a huge detriment.

 

It wasn’t driven by analytics, unless they were Cora’s analytics. I think plenty of managers have always done this. Not every player is Cal Ripken…

[Bellhorn04]

The notion of giving a player an occasional day off and actually getting some action for the Major League ballplayer on the bench seems like a good thing for multiple reasons. I know a lot of fans complain, but I think it has to happen to some degree.

 

I just don’t know we can’t give Cora credit for it as opposed to insisting it was all Bloom and Cora was forced to endure it like it was a huge detriment.

 

It wasn’t driven by analytics, unless they were Cora’s analytics. I think plenty of managers have always done this. Not every player is Cal Ripken…

 

I think it's safe to assume that analytics have now been brought into it.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Bellhorn04

[Maxbialystock]

I think it's safe to assume that analytics have now been brought into it.

 

I don't know jack about analytics, but I do know this. In 2018 the Sox had their best season ever--108 wins plus winning 11 of 14 games in the postseason. That was one of the best seasons any MLB team has had.

 

Here are the games played by the top 8 players (in terms of games played) of the 2018 Sox--

 

JDM 150

Benintendi 148

JBJ 144

Betts (won AL MVP) 136

Bogey 136

Nunez 127

Moreland 124

Devers 121

 

I'm pretty sure that some of those low numbers, like Mookie's 136 games, were the result of both injuries and days off. Nevertheless, they were missed games and, based on how freaking spectacular the Sox were in 2018, it is unarguable that missed games did not adversely affect the Sox and may even have helped.

 

The 2021 Sox weren't nearly as talented as the 2018 Sox, but they managed to get to the postseason with 93 wins and then to the ALCS before losing to the Astros. Here are the games played by the top 8 Sox players in 2021--

 

Devers 156

JDM 148

Verdugo 146

Renfroe 144

Bogey 144

Vazquez 138

Kike 134

Dalbec 133

 

As I have said elsewhere, the Atlanta Braves have the opposite philosophy. They want their best players to play as many games as possible. And I think that works for them.

[moonslav59]

1) Spreads them out more evenly.

2) The schedule of opposing starting pitchers is not that easy to nail down, especially with teams using openers and such. Seems like you see "TBD" listed more and more.

 

How is saying 2 weeks from Tuesday "spreading it out" better than saying in about 2 weeks?

 

If we planned on next weeks, and we end up facing all RHPs, then okay, maybe he gets one day off vs a RH SP, but I can't see how locking up one specific day makes much difference, at all.

 

Cora tends to give days right before or after a scheduled day off. I'm not sure about those benefits, but I don't have a big issue with that.

 

Hold off with rest or give the rest a day or two early, if we are facing the wrong-handed pitcher.

Hold off,m if the player goes 4 for 5 the night before.

 

That's all.

[Bellhorn04]

How is saying 2 weeks from Tuesday "spreading it out" better than saying in about 2 weeks?

 

If we planned on next weeks, and we end up facing all RHPs, then okay, maybe he gets one day off vs a RH SP, but I can't see how locking up one specific day makes much difference, at all.

 

Cora tends to give days right before or after a scheduled day off. I'm not sure about those benefits, but I don't have a big issue with that.

 

Hold off with rest or give the rest a day or two early, if we are facing the wrong-handed pitcher.

Hold off,m if the player goes 4 for 5 the night before.

 

That's all.

 

The wrong-handed pitcher thing isn't a lock. Some pitchers don't have big splits. Or some wrong-handed pitchers have good numbers against Devers.

 

Cora has all this data and more at his fingertips. He is vastly better informed than we are and he knows the game. I have faith in him to choose rest days on a logical basis, even when we don't see the logic spelled out for us.

[moonslav59]

The wrong-handed pitcher thing isn't a lock. Some pitchers don't have big splits. Or some wrong-handed pitchers have good numbers against Devers.

 

Cora has all this data and more at his fingertips. He is vastly better informed than we are and he knows the game. I have faith in him to choose rest days on a logical basis, even when we don't see the logic spelled out for us.

 

Like you said, he doesn't have "the data" 10-14 days ahead of time.

 

I'm fine with a giving a day off to Devers, if the data says the RHP does well vs Devers, and maybe that happened some of those times, but it wasn't planned that way 2 weeks ahead, right?

 

I do trust Cora's use of data, and still really like him as our manager. I just think he is wrong to lock days before knowing who is pitching or how hot the batter might be.

 

Hell, if the batter gets cold, move up the rest day, if the pitcher matches the timing.

[Bellhorn04]

Like you said, he doesn't have "the data" 10-14 days ahead of time.

 

I'm fine with a giving a day off to Devers, if the data says the RHP does well vs Devers, and maybe that happened some of those times, but it wasn't planned that way 2 weeks ahead, right?

 

I do trust Cora's use of data, and still really like him as our manager. I just think he is wrong to lock days before knowing who is pitching or how hot the batter might be.

 

Hell, if the batter gets cold, move up the rest day, if the pitcher matches the timing.

 

There's no way they can schedule around guys being hot and cold - analytics doesn't believe in hot and cold anyway.