Fire alex cora

[Bellhorn04]

Last year our top four SPs (Sale, Porcello, Price, and ERod) pitched about 654 innings. This year they pitched 624 innings. Not much difference, just 30 innings. The fact of the matter is that they simply sleepwalked through the season, mailing it in (except ERod) from day 1. Had they done the job that they are capable of doing we would be playing baseball next week.

 

Sale and Price were the make or break guys, though. And they were down 80 innings between them. They only combined for 254 innings.

 

Our team had very little starting pitching depth, and an average bullpen at best, so we needed those two to have strong, healthy seasons. Neither one did.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Bellhorn04

[Bellhorn04]

I tend to agree that it was more style over substance. That being said I can not say that with ontological certainty.

 

No one knows with certainty and no one will. I've said it before, the Red Sox organization has been like the Mafia through all the controversies of this regime. Not much gets out.

[moonslav59]

Last year our top four SPs (Sale, Porcello, Price, and ERod) pitched about 654 innings. This year they pitched 624 innings. Not much difference, just 30 innings. The fact of the matter is that they simply sleepwalked through the season, mailing it in (except ERod) from day 1. Had they done the job that they are capable of doing we would be playing baseball next week.

 

Here's an interesting view of our ring years:

 

2003:

29 Pedro

33 Lowe

33 Wake

30 Burkett

14 Fossom

23 others (10 Suppan 13 others)

 

2004:

33 Pedro

32 Schilling

33 Lowe

30 Wake

29 Arroyo

5 others

 

2005:

11 Schilling

30 Wells

32 Clement

33 Wake

32 Arroyo

35 others (16 Wade Miller)

 

2006:

33 Beckett

31 Schilling

8 Wells

12 Clement

23 Wake

63 others (15 Lester, 10 Snyder)

 

2007:

30 Beckett

24 Schilling

32 Dice-K

31 Wake

23 Tavarez

22 others (11 Lester)

 

2008:

27 Beckett

29 Dice-K

30 Wake

33 Lester

15 Buchholz

28 others (9 Masterson, 8 Byrd, 7 Colon)

 

2009:

32 Beckett

32 Lester

12 Dice-K

21 Wake

16 Buchholz

49 others (24 Penny, 8 Smoltz, 6 Masterson, 6 Byrd)

 

2010:

21 Beckett

32 Lester

33 Lackey

25 Dice-K

28 Buchholz

23 others (19 Wake)

 

2011:

30 Beckett

30 Lester

28 Lackey

7 Dice-K

14 Buchholz

50 others (23 Wake, 12 A Miller, 8 Bedard)

 

2012:

21 Beckett

33 Lester

0 Lackey

29 Buchholz

10 Bard

69 others (29 Doubront, 18 Cook, 11 Dice-K, 9 Morales)

 

2013:

33 Lester

29 Lackey

16 Buchholz

29 Dempster

27 Doubront

28 others (10 Peavy, 7 Webster, 6 Aceves)

 

2014: (traded 4/5ths of rotation)

21 Lester

21 Lackey

20 Peavy

28 Buchholz

10 Doubront

68 others (18 DLR, 15 Workman, 11 Webster, 10 Kell7, 7 Ranaudo)

 

2015:

28 Porcello

32 Miley

18 Buchholz

25 Kelly

9 Masterson

59 others (21 ERod, 11 Owens, 9 Wright, 4 Hill)

 

2016:

35 Price

33 Porcello

21 Buchholz

20 ERod

6 Kelly

53 others (24 Wright, 13 Pom)

 

2017:

32 Sale

11 Price

33 Porcello

32 Pomeranz

24 ERod

41 others (15 Fister, 5 Johnson, 5 Wright)

 

2018:

27 Sale

30 Price

33 Porcello

11 Pomeranz

23 ERod

38 others (13 Johnson, 11 Eovaldi, 8 Velazquez)

 

2019:

25 Sale

22 Price

32 Porcello

33 ERod

11 Eovaldi

36 others (so far)- 8 Velazquez, 7 Johnson, 6 Cashner

 

Fewest "others":

5 2004

22 2007

23 2003

23 2010

28 2013

28 2008

35 2005

36+ 2019

38 2018

41 2017

49 2009

50 2011

53 2016

59 2015

63 2014

63 2006

69 2012

 

Edited September 27, 2019 by moonslav59

[Swiharts Ghost]

Done with Cora he sucks terrible hire

[jad]

Doesn't this just show the expected? When you're successful, you stick with what you have. When you're not, you try different approaches? (I don't think any manager of a successful team says 'Hey, I've got an idea: let's use 60+ pitchers this year and have our aces pitch as little as possible.')

[Bellhorn04]

Done with Cora he sucks terrible hire

 

Yeah, except for the 119 wins and parade in his rookie season, it's been a disaster.

 

How's the heroin BTW?

[moonslav59]

Yeah, except for the 119 wins and parade in his rookie season, it's been a disaster.

 

How's the heroin BTW?

 

My guess is he's over-using depressants.

[Larry Cook]

Looking on the bright side:

 

Amazingly Cora is going to get us out of this season with a winning record. When you consider the terrible decisions desperate Dave made in spring training concerning the lack of conditioning for our pitching staff, the subsequent physical breakdown of those poorly prepared pitchers and our reliance on numerous horrible pitchers that do not have major league stuff for the month of September, it is truly amazing we finished this year with a winning record!!!!

[TylerD]

Done with Cora he sucks terrible hire

 

Meh relax. Give him next year. See what happens.

[cp176]

He ruined the farm doing what he thought he had to do to insure a ring.

 

We can debate whether he needed to go as far as he did and still get the ring, but IMO, there is no doubt the farm was ruined- justifiably or not.

 

We had a top 5-8 farm. Now we have a bottom 5-8 farm.

 

I'm fine with bottom 5, since we got the ring, but it's time to rebuild the farm not pretend it's fine, and DD is not the guy to do that. I just hope the next guy makes the rebuild as quickly as possible, and we can get back to top contention status, soon.

 

ok - I think that constantly claiming that Dombrowski ruined the farm is ridiculous. You and some others here have certainly been consistent with the claim. If trading away the players that were traded away to acquire top level ml talent is your example of ruining the farm, I would only say ok - your opinion as well as some others here. I'll keep watching for the all stars that were traded away to really start producing. I think that a more likely approach to this is that there are posters on this site who truly think that they could have done a better job than DD. I understand that no one is going to own this one but I believe it. I guess it might also be obvious that many are very pleased with JH latest statement about cutting payroll. I'm not exactly sure how to take that one but I am not particularly impressed with anyone who is wealthy and can claim that someone else has wasted their money. Soon we will actually find out if he is serious about what he is saying. Get rid of the big money makers and load up on the cheap cost controlled players. Big time trades could also be on the horizon.

[notin]

ok - I think that constantly claiming that Dombrowski ruined the farm is ridiculous. You and some others here have certainly been consistent with the claim. If trading away the players that were traded away to acquire top level ml talent is your example of ruining the farm, I would only say ok - your opinion as well as some others here. I'll keep watching for the all stars that were traded away to really start producing. I think that a more likely approach to this is that there are posters on this site who truly think that they could have done a better job than DD. I understand that no one is going to own this one but I believe it. I guess it might also be obvious that many are very pleased with JH latest statement about cutting payroll. I'm not exactly sure how to take that one but I am not particularly impressed with anyone who is wealthy and can claim that someone else has wasted their money. Soon we will actually find out if he is serious about what he is saying. Get rid of the big money makers and load up on the cheap cost controlled players. Big time trades could also be on the horizon.

 

Why is it ridiculous? He took a top tier farm and turned it into a bottom tier farm. The only question really is - do you think it was worth it? And while it was in 2018, there is an obvious fallout. The real problem is that fallout happened in 2019 and the repercussions are going to be felt in 2020.

 

The Sale trade was the price of doing business. Sale was one of the best contracts in baseball, and the Sox gave up two of the bet prospects. If you're waiting for those future all stars to produce, I would guess Yoan Moncada's .916 OPS this year should qualify for something. The primary reason he won't get a Silver Slugger this year is the change from 2B to 3B.

 

The Pomeranz trade was probably slso the cost of doing business. An All Star SP with 2 1/2 seasons of control also has a price.

 

Kimbrel felt like an overpay on Day One. And as the Sox cannot likely afford to retain either Bradley or Porcello, having Margot and Logan Allen would be nice. And certainly better options that Mike Shawaryn and Rusney Castillo.

 

The only real question was - was the decimation of the farm worth it. In 2018, it was. Was it in 2019? I believe the idea was to have a more substantial run of success than just the one title. And the real problem now becomes, what next? The internal solutions the Sox have to fill any gaps are not really all that enticing. Sure, they have warm bodies. But do they have future significant contributors?

 

And no one is "happy" that Henry plans to cut spending. Not sure why so many people draw the conclusion that acknowledging the pending budget changes is the same as rooting for them. I think a bag part of that is that too many just assume the Sox are a money-making machine and therefore can and should spend unlimited amounts of cash. John Henry is spending over a quarter of a billion dollars each year for our entertainment, I am not surprised he wants to dial back, especially since other teams are now showing better or equal success while spending less. The writing was on the wall, and randomly accusing people of wanting it and assuming they meant to say they could do better because you disagree with Henry's plan doesn't change that.

 

So as far as we know, there will be a lower payroll. Trades have to come, since free agency and cutting payroll are counter-intuitive. And the cheaper farm system players - and there will be one or two on the roster next year - should only be counted on to do so much. So the Sox have two options. 1) Rebuild the farm. I doubt they do this, as it can be a long and drawn out process taking several seasons. Or 2) make a few trades. If I had to guess, the primary trade bait will be JD Martinez (who also doubles as a salary dump to get to whatever the new payroll goal is), Matt Barnes, and Bobby Dalbec. I hope they don't trade Betts, but that is also a possibility. And I think Bradley is gone, but I doubt he has much in the way of trade value. I also hope they retain a few of the long term promising young players, like Casas, Mata, and Groome. I'm not wild about Duran, so if he gets dealt, I'll have mixed feelings. I do hope they keep as much of the farm as possible, but other teams like cheaper players when you trade with them.

 

The biggest obstacle and worst case scenario is if they decide they have to move one of Martinez or Betts. Because Martinez will be a lot oharder to trade due to his lack of a position and his expensive, option-laden contract. And I think we all hope that if they can't move him, they just keep spending and hold on to Betts...

[notin]

Doesn't this just show the expected? When you're successful, you stick with what you have. When you're not, you try different approaches? (I don't think any manager of a successful team says 'Hey, I've got an idea: let's use 60+ pitchers this year and have our aces pitch as little as possible.')

 

Is that really true?

 

When th Yankees had their last great run of cussess, they had a revolving door in that starting rotation. The 1996 Yankees were lead by pitchers like Jimmy Key, Kenny Rogers and Dwight Gooden. Then they sent them out and brought in David Wells and David Cone. Then, out with Wells and in with Clemens. Andy Pettitte was the only SP with 4 rings.

[Bellhorn04]

The only real question was - was the decimation of the farm worth it. In 2018, it was. Was it in 2019? I believe the idea was to have a more substantial run of success than just the one title. And the real problem now becomes, what next? The internal solutions the Sox have to fill any gaps are not really all that enticing. Sure, they have warm bodies. But do they have future significant contributors?

 

I would argue that in 2016, 2017 and 2018 it was worth it. 3 straight division titles in a tough division is no small feat. And winning one ring in 3 shots is a pretty good deal too.

 

Winning any titles at all is not that easy.

[notin]

I would argue that in 2016, 2017 and 2018 it was worth it. 3 straight division titles in a tough division is no small feat. And winning one title in 3 shots is a pretty good deal too.

 

Winning any titles at all is not that easy.

 

There is something to that. While the post-seasons those years wee not so fun, it doesn't and shouldn't take away from the enjoyment that we had from April through September.

 

But unfortunately,the Sox are at a time when they might have to face the proverbial piper...

[Bellhorn04]

There is something to that. While the post-seasons those years wee not so fun, it doesn't and shouldn't take away from the enjoyment that we had from April through September.

 

But unfortunately,the Sox are at a time when they might have to face the proverbial piper...

 

But if the decisions made going forward are really smart, we should be OK.

[Elktonnick]

I would argue that in 2016, 2017 and 2018 it was worth it. 3 straight division titles in a tough division is no small feat. And winning one ring in 3 shots is a pretty good deal too.

 

Winning any titles at all is not that easy.

 

Of course it was worth it. What is the farm for other than to produce Championships. Teams can go for years with great farms systems but never produce a title. The Padres and Reds are both cases in point.

[notin]

But if the decisions made going forward are really smart, we should be OK.

 

Being lucky would also help.

 

And it depends on your definition of OK. This team isn’t 62-100 and there are plenty of fans for other teams that hope for 84 win seasons. For example, somewhere out there, there are a dozen or so Marlins’ fan who would consider an 84 win season a huge success...

[moonslav59]

ok - I think that constantly claiming that Dombrowski ruined the farm is ridiculous. You and some others here have certainly been consistent with the claim. If trading away the players that were traded away to acquire top level ml talent is your example of ruining the farm, I would only say ok - your opinion as well as some others here. I'll keep watching for the all stars that were traded away to really start producing. I think that a more likely approach to this is that there are posters on this site who truly think that they could have done a better job than DD. I understand that no one is going to own this one but I believe it. I guess it might also be obvious that many are very pleased with JH latest statement about cutting payroll. I'm not exactly sure how to take that one but I am not particularly impressed with anyone who is wealthy and can claim that someone else has wasted their money. Soon we will actually find out if he is serious about what he is saying. Get rid of the big money makers and load up on the cheap cost controlled players. Big time trades could also be on the horizon.

 

Look, I already said I was fine with ruining the farm to get a ring. I have no beef with DD. He got us a ring.

 

That does not mean I have to sugar coat the consequences. He destroyed the farm. It's been bottom 5 for 3 straight years.

 

I never said I could have done better than DD, but I certainly have the right to say I think he went too far. We'll never know if we'd have won a ring or not without Pom, Thornburg, Kinsler, Kimbrel or others. That's what a site like this is all about- debating the what ifs.

 

I've been saying all along I do not think Henry will keep spending 10-300% more than other teams, but it doesn't "please" me to hear him finally say the over-spending is going to be slowed or stopped. It's just reality. I'm glad we have an owner that was willing to do what it took to win us several rings. I wish he'd keep spending what it takes to keep us winning every year, but I don't think it's right to expect it, and part of me thinks we're being a little hypocritical for bashing the Yankees all those years for buying championships and then being more than fine with us outspending everyone else by tens of millions 2 years in a row, and then expecting that to continue, just because he's filthy rich and can afford to spend $500M on the team every year.

 

I'm thrilled we won 4 rings in the last 2 decades. I went 3 decades with nothing. I often said, I'd be fine with 9 last places finishes for just one ring, and although my views changed after that first ring, I'm still fine with some down stretches, if it means we're working towards a long term plan of getting back to the top. (Plus, I don't think the cliff will be as bad as I once thought, but I'm fine with a couple to three years of no ring, as long as our future is looking brighter and brighter each year- that almost surely means our farm is getting better. I don't think DD was the guy to build up the farm. I don't think spending like maniacs for 2-3 more years would have been a great idea, either. The penalties incurred on the farm by maxing out year after year would have deepened the rebuilding process and lengthened the time needed to retool.

 

[moonslav59]

I would argue that in 2016, 2017 and 2018 it was worth it. 3 straight division titles in a tough division is no small feat. And winning one ring in 3 shots is a pretty good deal too.

 

Winning any titles at all is not that easy.

 

I think Henry expected a 5-6 year window not 3, and that's part of the reason he soured on DD. The culture thing just added to it.

[notin]

Of course it was worth it. What is the farm for other than to produce Championships. Teams can go for years with great farms systems but never produce a title. The Padres and Reds are both cases in point.

 

While true, if this team isn’t very good in 2020 and 2021, how many people will post on this board “but 2018 made this worth it.”

 

Because I missed those posts in 2014 and 2015.

 

And the fact that the once facetious Fire Alex Cora thread now has people posting about taking it seriously lends further to this point...

[Bellhorn04]

Being lucky would also help.

 

And it depends on your definition of OK. This team isn’t 62-100 and there are plenty of fans for other teams that hope for 84 win seasons. For example, somewhere out there, there are a dozen or so Marlins’ fan who would consider an 84 win season a huge success...

 

Agreed, it does depend on how you define success.

 

We're not in a horrible position, is what I mean. As long as Henry and Werner are still deeply committed to the team, as long as they make a good pick to run operations, as long as that person makes good decisions, and, as you said, as long as we get lucky...

 

Bottom line, there are good reasons for hope. Whether the hopes are fulfilled only time will tell.

[Bellhorn04]

I think Henry expected a 5-6 year window not 3, and that's part of the reason he soured on DD. The culture thing just added to it.

 

I'm not convinced about the 5-6 year thing. Henry is smart enough to know that some unforeseeable stuff with the pitching went wrong this year and derailed our chances.

[notin]

Agreed, it does depend on how you define success.

 

We're not in a horrible position, is what I mean. As long as Henry and Werner are still deeply committed to the team, as long as they make a good pick to run operations, as long as that person makes good decisions, and, as you said, as long as we get lucky...

 

Bottom line, there are good reasons for hope. Whether the hopes are fulfilled only time will tell.

 

And this isn't a horrible team that needs t fire everyone from DD on down. They made one move so far. The new GM might have an idea for someone he or she likes better than Cora, but there won't be anything on that front until we get a new GM. And a GM with preservation instincts might keep Cora around in case there is a need for a scapegoat next year...

[notin]

I'm not convinced about the 5-6 year thing. Henry is smart enough to know that some unforeseeable stuff with the pitching went wrong this year and derailed our chances.

 

 

 

Expectations of a 5-6 year window of dominance are unrealistic. Even if you have a crystal ball that knows how to use a Ouija board...

[moonslav59]

While true, if this team isn’t very good in 2020 and 2021, how many people will post on this board “but 2018 made this worth it.”

 

Because I missed those posts in 2014 and 2015.

 

And the fact that the once facetious Fire Alex Cora thread now has people posting about taking it seriously lends further to this point...

 

I said it then; I said it for years before our first ring; I'll say it in 2020 and 2021. By 2022, we better have brighter skies.

[vegasbob]

Expectations of a 5-6 year window of dominance are unrealistic. Even if you have a crystal ball that knows how to use a Ouija board...

 

Let's see how long a period of excellence runs in Houston, Dodgerland and the current NYY'ers (not long I hope) . The Sox posted 2 WS rings from 2013-2018 with an additional 2 AL East titles. Not a bad run. The 2019 season started bad, and never got any better. At least the 2019-2020 winter will contain a lot of commentary material as the reset takes shape.

[moonslav59]

I'm not convinced about the 5-6 year thing. Henry is smart enough to know that some unforeseeable stuff with the pitching went wrong this year and derailed our chances.

 

When you spent like we did last year, and by the way, we had less injuries than most teams, you expect a better record than this. Sure, things can all go wrong at once, and maybe one bad year would be okay, if the future looked brighter, but it looks worse.

[moonslav59]

Expectations of a 5-6 year window of dominance are unrealistic. Even if you have a crystal ball that knows how to use a Ouija board...

 

I didn't mean 5-6 rings, but I do think, looking at our roster and budget, once could have expected at least 5 years of a highly competitive team.

[moonslav59]

Let's see how long a period of excellence runs in Houston, Dodgerland and the current NYY'ers (not long I hope) . The Sox posted 2 WS rings from 2013-2018 with an additional 2 AL East titles. Not a bad run. The 2019 season started bad, and never got any better. At least the 2019-2020 winter will contain a lot of commentary material as the reset takes shape.

 

3 AL titles.

[Bellhorn04]

3 AL titles.

 

Magoo post LOL

 

To be precise:

 

4 AL East titles

2 AL titles

2 parades