Fire alex cora

[notin]

I'm just trying to evaluate the contract itself, forgetting about what we gave up in prospects.

 

It was definitely a good contract for the Sox, with only 2 years guaranteed for a total of 24 mill, plus a team option for 13 mill.

 

But they paid a very high price to get that contract, and you can't overlook that. And the fallout was an increase in the valuation of the closer around the league. Because certainly, every agent representing an elite closer saw that trading for one even at full cotnract price suddenly got very steep and enabled them to ask for outrageous money for their clients...

[notin]

Your approach would appear to entail a complete repudiation of the 'playoffs are a crapshoot' premise.

 

Maybe his strategy involves shooting the right crap...

[Slasher9]

Your approach would appear to entail a complete repudiation of the 'playoffs are a crapshoot' premise.

 

my premise has always been Pitching = Parades.

randomness, because: baseball, crapshoot are not premises of mine when it comes to Parades.

[Bellhorn04]

my premise has always been Pitching = Parades.

randomness, because: baseball, crapshoot are not premises of mine when it comes to Parades.

 

Well, one thing Ben did not bequeath to DD was much in the way of major league pitching.

[cp176]

I see some comments as unfair, too.

 

I only used the word "ruined" to parrot the term you used in your comment, but there have been some posters who have used similar words.

 

I think I've been fair to DD. I've said I have liked his overall plan, and I am thrilled it worked. Personally, I don't think it's being unfair to say I think he went a little too far with the prospect trades and there are clearly 2-4 that did not work out all that well, so that type of criticism goes with the GM job and is within the limits of fairness, IMO.

 

I was fine with the trade off, and who am I to say he "went to far?" He wanted to make sure we had the horses to win a ring, and he got them. GMs have to plan on some deals not working, and going back in hindsight is not all that "fair," but it's tuhe nature of the business and certainly the nature of boards like this. Theo caught slack and Ben was crucified on this board and others. Fair? Maybe not, but I think pointing out that are farm is comparatively very weak, fight now, because of some things DD did along with other factors is just speaking to truth.

 

With a limited budget and a new system of making it very hard for winning and big spending teams to rebuild their farm, getting back to glory will not be easy. One could argue DD knew these new rules and the direction MLB was going, and how keeping a strong farm while still winning may be what it's all about, and he chose to go for broke. It worked. I'm fine with any GM that brings us a ring. Now, it's time for the "broke" side of the equation. The budget will be reset at some point, and the farm has to be rebuilt for us to have a better chance at returning to glory.

 

 

You have been fair in your approach for the most part I think. When I saw the "ruined the farm" comment I had to react. There are many posters here who do not agree with me. i'm ok with that. i'm fairly sure that much of the over the top wording that gets used is simply to get a reaction from people like me. Personally i could care less what anyone thinks or says here but words that suggest that this guy single handedly took down a farm system in my opinion is a joke. What I really think some are trying to say is that they disagree with what he did so much that they could have actually done a better job than DD. That is a big joke. If anyone truly thinks that he destroyed the farm by the trades he made, I could not disagree more. there are no all stars coming from that group anytime soon. Was too much given to get what we needed? Maybe I guess. Too much money spent on some contracts? probably.

[cp176]

IMO the only dumb trade was the Kimbrel deal. To give up two top 100 prospects plus another for one of the highest paid closers and still taking on the full contract. And San Diego was a bad team. In no way did they want to keep the contract of a pricey closer. Not to mention, the Sox problem in 2015 was the rotation. Having a great closer and a weak rotation doesn't really do much for you.

 

There were so many reasons to think this deal was just silly, especially at that price...

 

I think that what you say here is a very fair assessment.

[TylerD]

I think that what you say here is a very fair assessment.

 

True.

 

But now we will sign workman, and if he keeps this up he could be one of the greatest closers!

[Kimmi]

I am inclined to blame ownership about as much as DD for it - there was no reason to do it before the season. Henry is not in the dark here.

 

I look at it this way. If ownership prioritized the farm, then they would have hired somebody else besides Dombrowski to run the operation. But Henry was itchy to win again, so this is what happened. This is the sort of instability folks teased Steinbrenner about in the 80s. Now, there are a lot of Red Sox alums out there GM-wise who know the landscape which will help.

 

Dombrowski could have brought us the title without decimating the farm. The team that was in place when Dombrowski came on board was that good. IMO, Dombrowski was too extreme in his moves.

[Kimmi]

The day he was hired some of us posted that he will decimate the farm and that is exactly what he did.

 

Also, if I was GM during DD’s tenure and inherited the farm and team that Ben built I would have had 3 parades during these DD years. And had Moncada going forward.

 

Post of the day!

[Kimmi]

Kimbrel's contract was a very favorable one, when we saw what Chapman and Jansen got.

 

And they obviously intended to upgrade the rotation. Not sure why the order they made the acquisitions in matters.

 

Kimbrel's contract was a double whammy. It was an overpay in both prospects and money.

[Bellhorn04]

Kimbrel's contract was a double whammy. It was an overpay in both prospects and money.

 

Compared to a free agent contract for a top closer, it was a good contract.

[Kimmi]

Compared to a free agent contract for a top closer, it was a good contract.

 

Well I think free agent contracts for top closers are bad contracts. Paying a bad contract because other teams are paying bad contracts doesn't make it a good contract. IMO, the worst type of big contract to give out is to a reliever.

 

Also, as Notin pointed out, you can't just ignore the prospects given up.

 

The Kimbrel deal is one that I would not have done.

[Kimmi]

As bad as our pen was this year in save %, I would spend cheaply on the pen again this year.

 

That said, if the dynamic of the starting pitcher versus the reliever is changing to the extreme where we will have openers and the starters are only expected to go 3-4 innings, then obviously the pen becomes more important. In that case, there would be no need to spend big bucks on the starters.

 

Bottom line: Guys like Sale and Price have to do their jobs and earn their contracts.

[Bellhorn04]

Well I think free agent contracts for top closers are bad contracts. Paying a bad contract because other teams are paying bad contracts doesn't make it a good contract. IMO, the worst type of big contract to give out is to a reliever.

 

Also, as Notin pointed out, you can't just ignore the prospects given up.

 

The Kimbrel deal is one that I would not have done.

 

I'm not ignoring the prospects. My sole point is that the contract on its own was a favorable one. FanGraphs says he was worth $46.1 million for the 3 years, compared to the $37.5 million he was paid.

[sk7326]

Dombrowski could have brought us the title without decimating the farm. The team that was in place when Dombrowski came on board was that good. IMO, Dombrowski was too extreme in his moves.

 

Given the scale of the moves - I have to assume that ownership had to green light the big ones. The Sale and Price deals were too big to have been done without ownership weighing in. Dombrowski had just left Detroit - there was a clear MO. Henry knew this would happen and is basically using him as a human shield because the team did not make the playoffs. Henry has done this before so this is not tin foil hat stuff.

 

Also note that Henry's issue is payroll, not the farm per se. Dombrowski maybe traded one prospect (Kopech) we'll really miss.

[moonslav59]

I'm not ignoring the prospects. My sole point is that the contract on its own was a favorable one. FanGraphs says he was worth $46.1 million for the 3 years, compared to the $37.5 million he was paid.

 

Yes, he earned his contracts, but we basically gave up 4 prospects for about $8.6M in value.

 

If we are going to use fangraph's value, then let's use it to total up Margot and Allen's value and see if it tops $8.6M.

[cp176]

Dombrowski could have brought us the title without decimating the farm. The team that was in place when Dombrowski came on board was that good. IMO, Dombrowski was too extreme in his moves.

 

see what I'm saying moon - decimated the farm - ruined the farm - meaningless strong language because someone doesn't like the way someone else does business - it doesn't align with the way they want things to be.

[cp176]

DD overall did a very good job for us although some depth was lost from the farm. it certainly was not decimated or ruined.

[moonslav59]

DD overall did a very good job for us although some depth was lost from the farm. it certainly was not decimated or ruined.

 

I'd say "decimated" is closer to reality than saying "some depth was lost."

 

Both are off the mark.

[Bellhorn04]

But they paid a very high price to get that contract, and you can't overlook that. And the fallout was an increase in the valuation of the closer around the league. Because certainly, every agent representing an elite closer saw that trading for one even at full cotnract price suddenly got very steep and enabled them to ask for outrageous money for their clients...

 

And Theo did his part when he traded Torres for a rental of Chapman in an arguably even bigger overpay. So the Yankees, Dodgers and Rockies can blame DD and Theo for getting hosed by Chapman, Jansen and Davis. Sound right?

[Bellhorn04]

Red Sox fans used to whine because they couldn't win the World Series.

 

Now they whine because although they won the World Series, they spent too much money doing it, or traded too many prospects.

 

(A post specifically designed to stir up trouble. )

[Slasher9]

DD overall did a very good job for us although some depth was lost from the farm. it certainly was not decimated or ruined.

 

I'd say "decimated" is closer to reality than saying "some depth was lost."

 

Both are off the mark.

 

no they arent. the farm was 100% decimated by DD. it went from a top 2 or 3 to the #30 farm in baseball when he was fired.

that is Farm decimated.

[Slasher9]

Red Sox fans used to whine because they couldn't win the World Series.

 

Now they whine because although they won the World Series, they spent too much money doing it, or traded too many prospects.

 

(A post specifically designed to stir up trouble. )

 

hahaha. well played.

i will say that i for one am not doing revisionist history. every complaint i have had about DD and his trades/signings is the exact complaint i had the day he was hired and with every subsequent signing/trade he has made. just because he proved me right doesnt mean i am whining. and it seems the owner agrees with me

[S5Dewey]

Red Sox fans used to whine because they couldn't win the World Series.

 

Now they whine because although they won the World Series, they spent too much money doing it, or traded too many prospects.

 

(A post specifically designed to stir up trouble. )

 

Whether it was designed to stir up trouble or not, it's spot-on. Everything about who we could (or could not) have traded for the players on the WSC team is now pure speculation. It's equally as easy to speculate that had the FO done things exactly as they did we wouldn't have that banner flying.

 

Some people can't enjoy anything. :-(

[Slasher9]

Whether it was designed to stir up trouble or not, it's spot-on. Everything about who we could (or could not) have traded for the players on the WSC team is now pure speculation. It's equally as easy to speculate that had the FO done things exactly as they did we wouldn't have that banner flying.

 

Some people can't enjoy anything. :-(

 

hahahaha. damn you! dont make me bring up iggy!!!

[cp176]

no they arent. the farm was 100% decimated by DD. it went from a top 2 or 3 to the #30 farm in baseball when he was fired.

that is Farm decimated.

 

you see Slasher that's what I mean. A lesser man would just seem overwhelmed by all of the anti DD ******** that floats around here. Not me!!! I'm just that one old lost ram who sneaked out of the pen when it comes to the talksox forum. Actually I'm stunned and surprised that I haven't been asked to take my act somewhere else. I'm as devoted a fan as most here and have been for many years, it just amazes me how numb i can be to the truth. lol I'm an outlier. In DD i trusted. Now with all that being said, if you would like me to get in touch with my front office contacts to recommend you for the GM's job, just let me know. I would do that for you!

[cp176]

I'd say "decimated" is closer to reality than saying "some depth was lost."

 

Both are off the mark.

 

 

Obviously i don't agree with you.

[cp176]

Red Sox fans used to whine because they couldn't win the World Series.

 

Now they whine because although they won the World Series, they spent too much money doing it, or traded too many prospects.

 

(A post specifically designed to stir up trouble. )

 

this is the absolute truth

[notin]

Red Sox fans used to whine because they couldn't win the World Series.

 

Now they whine because although they won the World Series, they spent too much money doing it, or traded too many prospects.

 

(A post specifically designed to stir up trouble. )

 

Rabble rouser.

 

Although I'm not sure why saying DD decimated the farm has to be considered complaining. It seems like a fact to me. We all saw it happen. And it does have repercussions today...

[TylerD]

Red Sox fans used to whine because they couldn't win the World Series.

 

Now they whine because although they won the World Series, they spent too much money doing it, or traded too many prospects.

 

(A post specifically designed to stir up trouble. )

 

Well sad. It’s funny how quick fans can get used to winning. My little brother is a patriots fan and I swear if they don’t win the Super Bowl this year he will cry