Farrell

[a700hitter]

I had shut off the game before Moreland came into pitch. It is funny, pathetic and not unexpected that Farrell did not know the rule when the DH takes the field.

[Kimmi]

I missed that.

 

Moreland moved to P, HRam took Young's place as DH and then moved to 1B (negating the DH, which was fine, because Moreland was pitching, and we were out of it anyways), but the box score says Young PH for Ramirez in the 9th. How could Young start as the DH, be replaced and then come back as a PH'er later?

 

Doesn't the ump keep track?

 

Yeah, I think the ump is more at fault than Farrell is. It's the ump's job to keep track of that type of thing.

[Kimmi]

One of the game write-ups, I think espn's, said Showalter probably didn't say anything because the Orioles were up 16-3. Heck, the umps missed it too.

 

I don't know for sure, but I don't think Showalter caught the mistake at the time that it happened. I think that comment was an after the fact thing, and that Showalter didn't protest the game afterwards because if was a blowout.

 

Showalter is the type of manager who will make a pitching change or ask for a replay challenge with 2 outs in the 9th in that type of game. IMO, if he knew there was a mistake at the time it was happening, he would have said something.

[Kimmi]

I wonder if JF even knows it happened.

 

He knows it happened. He also knows the rules, but had a mental lapse. That's two mental lapses that he has had recently, the other one being when he tried to pull Reed in the middle of an at bat.

 

It is not a good look for the manager to be having these mental lapses (and bench coach not catching them). Perhaps this is the problem with our players making so many mental mistakes.

[S5Dewey]

I don't know for sure, but I don't think Showalter caught the mistake at the time that it happened. I think that comment was an after the fact thing, and that Showalter didn't protest the game afterwards because if was a blowout.

 

Showalter is the type of manager who will make a pitching change or ask for a replay challenge with 2 outs in the 9th in that type of game. IMO, if he knew there was a mistake at the time it was happening, he would have said something.

 

I agree. Showalter is the kind of a dick that would have his players stealing home with a 20 run lead, just because he wants to embarrass the other team. There's NFW he's going to overlook that opportunity if he had known about it.

[Bellhorn04]

A mental lapse at the end of a 16-3 game doesn't bother me much.

[moonslav59]

He knows it happened. He also knows the rules, but had a mental lapse. That's two mental lapses that he has had recently, the other one being when he tried to pull Reed in the middle of an at bat.

 

It is not a good look for the manager to be having these mental lapses (and bench coach not catching them). Perhaps this is the problem with our players making so many mental mistakes.

 

That's been my point all along on JF. He exudes an air of cluelessness and inattention to details (fundamentals).

 

If you were a player, and a bumbling clown came up to you to tell you not to make mental mistakes anymore, what affect would that have on you? I know I just over simplified the situation, but I just don't see any perception of skilled, knowledgeable leadership in the dugout, and that is bound to rub off on the players.

[notin]

A mental lapse at the end of a 16-3 game doesn't bother me much.

 

Especially on the heels of a 13-6 loss. Let's not over analyze this...

[moonslav59]

Especially on the heels of a 13-6 loss. Let's not over analyze this...

 

If it was the first time, I wouldn't think twice about it.

 

It was not.

[Maxbialystock]

He knows it happened. He also knows the rules, but had a mental lapse. That's two mental lapses that he has had recently, the other one being when he tried to pull Reed in the middle of an at bat.

 

It is not a good look for the manager to be having these mental lapses (and bench coach not catching them). Perhaps this is the problem with our players making so many mental mistakes.

 

All due respect, Kimmi, but you and moonslav are making mountains out of molehills. Neither mental mistake penalized the Sox or affected the outcome of either game. The rule book is endlessly complex about all kinds of situations, but we expect managers to think of that first and not what he wants to do in the pressure of the moment?

 

As for the players mental mistakes, they are result of the intensity of baserunning vs. the unending and dreary reality of staying alert during 3 1/2 hours of pitchers and hitters and coaches and managers doing their little dances. In JBJ's case, it was egregious, no denying that, but we have seen other teams do similar things.

 

My one serious complaint on this score is the way some of our pitchers are slow to cover 1b on grounders to the right. Sale never does that, but several of our guys have. ERod is one of the worst offenders. So, yeah, that's on the coaches and Farrell, but let's not forget ERod himself. He is the guy who needs to maintain his focus and game awareness, and that is a huge difference between the way he conducts himself on the mound and the way Sale does.

 

Similarly HanRam, a veteran of over ten years in MLB, is definitely flaky running the bases, which is exacerbated by Farrell's willingness to allow his players be aggressive. Betts, with far less MLB experience, is the opposite of flaky--almost certainly the result of his make-up and of course speed. Betts has a real gift for quickly sensing what he can do vs. the risks. Benintendi has the speed, but not yet the the intuition Betts has. He might never have it.

 

About the aggressive baserunning. When you are near the bottom of MLB in dingers, aggressive baserunning makes sense. Even Sandy Leon, who is incredibly slow, has been aggressive to very good effect. It was risky, but his amazing slide made it work.

Edited August 27, 2017 by Maxbialystock

[Bellhorn04]

If it was the first time, I wouldn't think twice about it.

 

It was not.

 

So how many of these mixups in his 5 years as manager?

[moonslav59]

So how many of these mixups in his 5 years as manager?

 

Maybe 26?

[Bellhorn04]

Maybe 26?

 

You must have a log of them to come up with a number like that.

[moonslav59]

All due respect, Kimmi, but you and moonslav are making mountains out of molehills. Neither mental mistake penalized the Sox or affected the outcome of either game. The rule book is endlessly complex about all kinds of situations, but we expect managers to think of that first and not what he wants to do in the pressure of the moment?

 

As for the players mental mistakes, they are result of the intensity of baserunning vs. the unending and dreary reality of staying alert during 3 1/2 hours of pitchers and hitters and coaches and managers doing their little dances. In JBJ's case, it was egregious, no denying that, but we have seen other teams do similar things.

 

My one serious complaint on this score is the way some of our pitchers are slow to cover 1b on grounders to the right. Sale never does that, but several of our guys have. ERod is one of the worst offenders. So, yeah, that's on the coaches and Farrell, but let's not forget ERod himself. He is the guy who needs to maintain his focus and game awareness, and that is a huge difference between the way he conducts himself on the mound and the way Sale does.

 

Similarly HanRam, a veteran of over ten years in MLB, is definitely flaky running the bases, which is exacerbated by Farrell's willingness to allow his players be aggressive. Betts, with far less MLB experience, is the opposite of flaky--almost certainly the result of his make-up and of course speed. Betts has a real gift for quickly sensing what he can do vs. the risks. Benintendi has the speed, but not yet the the intuition Betts has. He might never have it.

 

About the aggressive baserunning. When you are near the bottom of MLB in dingers, aggressive baserunning makes sense. Even Sandy Leon, who is incredibly slow, has been aggressive to very good effect. It was risky, but his amazing slide made it work.

 

I've followed the Sox very closely since the early 70's.

 

We've had some slow runners. We've had some dumb runners. We've had bad fielders and dumb fielders.

 

I honestly can say, I have never seen more mental mistakes on the base paths and on defense than this year. I'm not talking about a ground ball going between your legs. I'm talking about throwing to the wrong base, holding onto the ball too long, forgetting how many outs there are, and much more.

 

When I see the manager looking like the absent minded professor, I'm thinking some of that must have rubbed off on his players. I don't think it's a stretch.

 

People can content themselves with the winning record and say that is all that matters, but mark my words, if we lose a playoff series based on a bonehead play, I'm guaranteeing we'll here these words

 

We can't keep "getting away" with mental mistakes and blunders and not have it eventually bite us in the ass.

[Bellhorn04]

If the team doesn't win the division Farrell should be gone. If the team loses a playoff series because of a Farrell blunder he should be gone.

[a700hitter]

If the team doesn't win the division Farrell should be gone. If the team loses a playoff series because of a Farrell blunder he should be gone.

Can they give him a brain wave activity test regardless of how the team does?

[Bellhorn04]

Can they give him a brain wave activity test regardless of how the team does?

 

LOL absolutely.

[moonslav59]

You must have a log of them to come up with a number like that.

 

LOL.

 

It was just an estimate that sounded like something tracked.

[Kimmi]

A mental lapse at the end of a 16-3 game doesn't bother me much.

 

Especially on the heels of a 13-6 loss. Let's not over analyze this...

 

Fair enough.

[Kimmi]

All due respect, Kimmi, but you and moonslav are making mountains out of molehills. Neither mental mistake penalized the Sox or affected the outcome of either game. The rule book is endlessly complex about all kinds of situations, but we expect managers to think of that first and not what he wants to do in the pressure of the moment?

 

As for the players mental mistakes, they are result of the intensity of baserunning vs. the unending and dreary reality of staying alert during 3 1/2 hours of pitchers and hitters and coaches and managers doing their little dances. In JBJ's case, it was egregious, no denying that, but we have seen other teams do similar things.

 

My one serious complaint on this score is the way some of our pitchers are slow to cover 1b on grounders to the right. Sale never does that, but several of our guys have. ERod is one of the worst offenders. So, yeah, that's on the coaches and Farrell, but let's not forget ERod himself. He is the guy who needs to maintain his focus and game awareness, and that is a huge difference between the way he conducts himself on the mound and the way Sale does.

 

Similarly HanRam, a veteran of over ten years in MLB, is definitely flaky running the bases, which is exacerbated by Farrell's willingness to allow his players be aggressive. Betts, with far less MLB experience, is the opposite of flaky--almost certainly the result of his make-up and of course speed. Betts has a real gift for quickly sensing what he can do vs. the risks. Benintendi has the speed, but not yet the the intuition Betts has. He might never have it.

 

About the aggressive baserunning. When you are near the bottom of MLB in dingers, aggressive baserunning makes sense. Even Sandy Leon, who is incredibly slow, has been aggressive to very good effect. It was risky, but his amazing slide made it work.

 

As to your first sentence, fair enough. I am not a Farrell basher, though I do believe that questioning the coaches about the mental errors, baserunning mistakes included, is valid. I know that mental lapses are going to happen, but there seems to be more than our fair share of them.

 

I am not talking about the aggressive baserunning outs, which are often judgment calls. I have defended those over and over. I am talking about mistakes.

 

I just thought it was odd that Farrell had two mental lapses of his own.

[jacksonianmarch]

A well coached team will make physical errors. A well coached team seldom makes mental ones. Farrell has had the benefit of a Cy Young favorite and a Cy Young contender on the staff in Sale and Kimbrel. Pomeranz has been just good enough to win a lot of games. Porcello had been turning the corner. You had a rotation of 3 guys pitching at their top level with ERod coming on and a pen that has been remarkably good outside of the expected excellence of Kimbrel. That staff has kept you in first and if you win the division, it will be the major reason beyond a surprising resurgence from your boring offense

[Maxbialystock]

I've followed the Sox very closely since the early 70's.

 

We've had some slow runners. We've had some dumb runners. We've had bad fielders and dumb fielders.

 

I honestly can say, I have never seen more mental mistakes on the base paths and on defense than this year. I'm not talking about a ground ball going between your legs. I'm talking about throwing to the wrong base, holding onto the ball too long, forgetting how many outs there are, and much more.

 

When I see the manager looking like the absent minded professor, I'm thinking some of that must have rubbed off on his players. I don't think it's a stretch.

 

People can content themselves with the winning record and say that is all that matters, but mark my words, if we lose a playoff series based on a bonehead play, I'm guaranteeing we'll here these words

 

We can't keep "getting away" with mental mistakes and blunders and not have it eventually bite us in the ass.

 

I hear you, but disagree on most of it maybe because I have only been able to watch games regularly since I think 2004 or so when I got a MLB package from one of the satellite firms. "Looking like an absent-minded professor" is in the eye of the beholder because I frankly don't see it. I don't disagree that this year, as last year, how the season ends decides Farrell's job status. If we lose a key playoff game because of a key bonehead play, I will likely be on your bandwagon.

 

About the boneheaded plays and blunders. Only a few of them really fit that description and I see just as many by teams we play except for the most conservative. More to the point, baseball is unique among all major sports in that it is dominated by the catcher-pitcher confrontations. 300 pitches (I'm guessing). That's where games are won and lost--the last 4 games being a perfect example. We got killed in three, but not because of any blunders, and we lost the last game, a close one, also without any blunders. Every team makes errors (but some field better than others). The aggressive base running, according to Kimmi's stats, has not hurt and is justified by the dearth of dingers. Lately, it's been particularly successful.

[Maxbialystock]

A well coached team will make physical errors. A well coached team seldom makes mental ones. Farrell has had the benefit of a Cy Young favorite and a Cy Young contender on the staff in Sale and Kimbrel. Pomeranz has been just good enough to win a lot of games. Porcello had been turning the corner. You had a rotation of 3 guys pitching at their top level with ERod coming on and a pen that has been remarkably good outside of the expected excellence of Kimbrel. That staff has kept you in first and if you win the division, it will be the major reason beyond a surprising resurgence from your boring offense

 

Well-coached? This ain't little league or college. The operative word is managed because most of the coaching has already taken place. That's why those guys go thru the long, long trail of successively harder minor league baseball, to say nothing of all the coaching before then. On top of which, most of them have significant major league experience. On this team the only two novices are Beni and Devers, and they seem to me to be doing fine with respect to mental mistakes. Besides, the core of all MLB games are those those 300 pitches per game and the confrontations between hitters and pitchers. You hit and/or pitch well, you have a good shot at winning. You don't, you don't. It's that simple. Today, finally, both teams had good pitching and weak hitting, but we left 25 on and were 1 for 13 with RISP, but I sure didn't see any blunders, let alone any that affected the outcome. In fact, the last 4 excruciating games, all losses and the big reason why we are once again debating Farrell, actually demonstrated that hitting and pitching are everything. In the first three games we had terrible pitching. In the last two games we scored 1 run in 18 innings. If there were blunders, they had no effect on any of those games.

 

No disagreement on the pitching, which overall has been very good this year, especially for a Sox team. One ace and one great closer, however, do not a great pitching staff make, not with 10 or 11 other guys you must also rely on. Pomeranz, agreed, has been a pleasant surprise lately and has the 3d highest pitching WAR after Sale and Kimbrell, I don't think it's been luck. He gets the most out of that knuckle curve, fast ball, and I think a cut fastball, but he ain't exactly an innings-eater, averaging about 5 1/2 per start. He's pitched 7 innings once, so he needs a good bullpen backing him up. Porcello has turned no corners--my gosh, his pitching WAR is a flat zero. Do you just make this stuff up? ERod lately gets killed early then settles down. Fister, lately and amazingly, has been better than ERod, which you saw today. His prior start was a complete game gem. After Kimbrel and Reed, the entire bullpen is suspect, no exceptions. We all love Sale, what a great player, but he might be getting tired. He leads MLB in innings pitched. He averaged 5 innings in his last two starts and gave up 11 runs (7 of which were in his latest start). If we do win the AL East, it's odds on we play the Guardians, and they own Sale, shocking as that sounds.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Maxbialystock

[moonslav59]

If there were blunders, they had no effect on any of those games.

 

What about Holt holding onto the ball while the winning run scored?

 

[illinoisredsox]

Well-coached? This ain't little league or college. The operative word is managed because most of the coaching has already taken place. That's why those guys go thru the long, long trail of successively harder minor league baseball, to say nothing of all the coaching before then. On top of which, most of them have significant major league experience. On this team the only two novices are Beni and Devers, and they seem to me to be doing fine with respect to mental mistakes. Besides, the core of all MLB games are those those 300 pitches per game and the confrontations between hitters and pitchers. You hit and/or pitch well, you have a good shot at winning. You don't, you don't. It's that simple. Today, finally, both teams had good pitching and weak hitting, but we left 25 on and were 1 for 13 with RISP, but I sure didn't see any blunders, let alone any that affected the outcome. In fact, the last 4 excruciating games, all losses and the big reason why we are once again debating Farrell, actually demonstrated that hitting and pitching are everything. In the first three games we had terrible pitching. In the last two games we scored 1 run in 18 innings. If there were blunders, they had no effect on any of those games.

 

No disagreement on the pitching, which overall has been very good this year, especially for a Sox team. One ace and one great closer, however, do not a great pitching staff make, not with 10 or 11 other guys you must also rely on. Pomeranz, agreed, has been a pleasant surprise lately and has the 3d highest pitching WAR after Sale and Kimbrell, I don't think it's been luck. He gets the most out of that knuckle curve, fast ball, and I think a cut fastball, but he ain't exactly an innings-eater, averaging about 5 1/2 per start. He's pitched 7 innings once, so he needs a good bullpen backing him up. Porcello has turned no corners--my gosh, his pitching WAR is a flat zero. Do you just make this stuff up? ERod lately gets killed early then settles down. Fister, lately and amazingly, has been better than ERod, which you saw today. His prior start was a complete game gem. After Kimbrel and Reed, the entire bullpen is suspect, no exceptions. We all love Sale, what a great player, but he might be getting tired. He leads MLB in innings pitched. He averaged 5 innings in his last two starts and gave up 11 runs (7 of which were in his latest start). If we do win the AL East, it's odds on we play the Guardians, and they own Sale, shocking as that sounds.

 

Have to disagree on Benintendi; he has made several mental mistakes this year. I don't see every game but I have observed numerous throws to the wrong base and overthrowing the cutoff man. How many times has he gotten too close to the wall and had the ball bounce past him (missing the ball is physical, putting yourself in a bad position so that the miss can happen is mental IMO). There have been a few times he could have gone 1st to 3rd and didn't. Missing the cutoff man is the one that really stands out; we aren't talking a Clemente or Evans type arm here.

[Nick]

Have to disagree on Benintendi; he has made several mental mistakes this year. I don't see every game but I have observed numerous throws to the wrong base and overthrowing the cutoff man. How many times has he gotten too close to the wall and had the ball bounce past him (missing the ball is physical, putting yourself in a bad position so that the miss can happen is mental IMO). There have been a few times he could have gone 1st to 3rd and didn't. Missing the cutoff man is the one that really stands out; we aren't talking a Clemente or Evans type arm here.

 

His defense to date has been overrated. He's definitely no Bradley and Betts.

[Bellhorn04]

A well coached team will make physical errors. A well coached team seldom makes mental ones.

 

Gregorius made a major bonehead move in Friday night's game.

[oldtimer]

Have to disagree on Benintendi; he has made several mental mistakes this year. I don't see every game but I have observed numerous throws to the wrong base and overthrowing the cutoff man. How many times has he gotten too close to the wall and had the ball bounce past him (missing the ball is physical, putting yourself in a bad position so that the miss can happen is mental IMO). There have been a few times he could have gone 1st to 3rd and didn't. Missing the cutoff man is the one that really stands out; we aren't talking a Clemente or Evans type arm here.

 

I have seen the same thing. He is still a young guy and nearly a rookie in experience. Lets hope that he will continue to improve as he learns from his mistakes.

[SoxnCycles]

I have seen the same thing. He is still a young guy and nearly a rookie in experience. Lets hope that he will continue to improve as he learns from his mistakes.

 

Agreed.

And has the left field wall suddenly become a minor nuisance, instead of a major park feature that takes to time to play well off of?

[mvp 78]

I have seen the same thing. He is still a young guy and nearly a rookie in experience. Lets hope that he will continue to improve as he learns from his mistakes.

 

If you can trust the coaching staff to do their job. We'll see...