A Realistic View at 2017 Part II

[Nick]

Daniel Flores, C, Venezuela

Flores is the second-ranked player in the class according to Baseball America, and some teams reportedly have him as their number one player. The catcher is known mostly for his defensive chops, as he’s already an elite backstop. Specifically, he already gets the ball to second base at elite pop times and does well blocking pitches. Offensively, Flores is a switch-hitter who relies more on power right now but has plenty of potential to develop as an all-around force at the plate.

 

Danny Diaz, SS, Venezuela

The Red Sox are likely to stick in Venezuela for their next top-rated international prospect in Diaz. Although he is listed as a shortstop, he is almost certain to move to the hot corner and could do so as soon as he signs. Ranked as the seventh best international prospect by Baseball America, he is the anti-Flores as he’s known for his bat more than his glove. The big infielder is projected to have above-average power potential and could have an above-average hit tool as well. He’s expected to be able to stick at third base given his strong throwing arm and quick hands, but he’ll have to keep his size in check to avoid moving across the diamond.

 

Antoni Flores, SS, Venezuela

Flores is the final top-50 prospect connected to the Red Sox and comes in at number 35 on Baseball America’s rankings. He is clearly a step below the other names listed here, but scouts rave about his makeup. It’s unclear whether or not he’ll be able to stick at shortstop at this point, but he’ll probably need to stay in the middle infield to have value due to a bat that doesn’t project to grow all that much.

 

UPDATE

 

According to Baseball America, the Red Sox have agreed to deals with all three of the players listed above as well as shortstop Nelfy Abreu out of the Dominican Republic and shortstop Denny Daza out of Venezuela. None of the signing bonuses have been announced at this time, and the bonuses for the players out of Venezuela may take longer to be announced at the request of the family of the players.

 

HELP IS ON THE WAY KIMMI

[moonslav59]

Daniel Flores, C, Venezuela

Flores is the second-ranked player in the class according to Baseball America, and some teams reportedly have him as their number one player. The catcher is known mostly for his defensive chops, as he’s already an elite backstop. Specifically, he already gets the ball to second base at elite pop times and does well blocking pitches. Offensively, Flores is a switch-hitter who relies more on power right now but has plenty of potential to develop as an all-around force at the plate.

 

Danny Diaz, SS, Venezuela

The Red Sox are likely to stick in Venezuela for their next top-rated international prospect in Diaz. Although he is listed as a shortstop, he is almost certain to move to the hot corner and could do so as soon as he signs. Ranked as the seventh best international prospect by Baseball America, he is the anti-Flores as he’s known for his bat more than his glove. The big infielder is projected to have above-average power potential and could have an above-average hit tool as well. He’s expected to be able to stick at third base given his strong throwing arm and quick hands, but he’ll have to keep his size in check to avoid moving across the diamond.

 

Antoni Flores, SS, Venezuela

Flores is the final top-50 prospect connected to the Red Sox and comes in at number 35 on Baseball America’s rankings. He is clearly a step below the other names listed here, but scouts rave about his makeup. It’s unclear whether or not he’ll be able to stick at shortstop at this point, but he’ll probably need to stay in the middle infield to have value due to a bat that doesn’t project to grow all that much.

 

UPDATE

 

According to Baseball America, the Red Sox have agreed to deals with all three of the players listed above as well as shortstop Nelfy Abreu out of the Dominican Republic and shortstop Denny Daza out of Venezuela. None of the signing bonuses have been announced at this time, and the bonuses for the players out of Venezuela may take longer to be announced at the request of the family of the players.

 

HELP IS ON THE WAY KIMMI

 

I hope I will eat crow as our farm becomes a top level farm again.

[S5Dewey]

Could the cliff be not as precipitous as we once feared? Is it possible the FO knows what they're doing..... and we don't?

[Nick]

Could the cliff be not as precipitous as we once feared? Is it possible the FO knows what they're doing..... and we don't?

 

We need to tip our hats off to the Sox scouting department. We seem to uncovered them and find a way to sign them despite constant effort to equalize the playing field by mlb.

[dgalehouse]

That is why there is no need to lament the trading of prospects to acquire proven performers like Sale , Kimbrel and Pomeranz. They are the players who can put you on top. There are always more young prospects coming along. There is a steady pipeline from Latin America that shows no sign of drying up any time soon.

[S5Dewey]

That is why there is no need to lament the trading of prospects to acquire proven performers like Sale , Kimbrel and Pomeranz. They are the players who can put you on top. There are always more young prospects coming along. There is a steady pipeline from Latin America that shows no sign of drying up any time soon.

 

Agreed. And this opens up a new avenue of getting to them that apparently not many of us knew existed. But the FO did!

[Nick]

We're the only team to have signed 3 in top 30 (2, 13, 20). Yankees signed two so far. (4, 16). 5 players remain unsigned in top 30.

[moonslav59]

We're the only team to have signed 3 in top 30 (2, 13, 20). Yankees signed two so far. (4, 16). 5 players remain unsigned in top 30.

 

Great news to us cliff dwellers.

[Kimmi]

Great news to us cliff dwellers.

 

Cliff dwellers unite!

 

I tell you what, let's win a World Series or 2 in the next three years and the cliff becomes a moot point.

[moonslav59]

Cliff dwellers unite!

 

I tell you what, let's win a World Series or 2 in the next three years and the cliff becomes a moot point.

 

I don't want us to be bad for 2-4 years after winning 1-2 championships, but those rings sure make it easier to stomach.

 

Just like the 2013 ring made 2012, 2014 and 2015 tolerable.

[a700hitter]

I don't want us to be bad for 2-4 years after winning 1-2 championships, but those rings sure make it easier to stomach.

 

Just like the 2013 ring made 2012, 2014 and 2015 tolerable.

And we lived through that cliff despite not selling the future.

[moonslav59]

And we lived through that cliff despite not selling the future.

 

The 2013 ring turned the cliff into a mole hill.

[Nick]

I do want to point out that Sox went 85 years without a world series ring.

 

When you're close, do you throw kitchen sink at it?

[moonslav59]

I do want to point out that Sox went 85 years without a world series ring.

 

When you're close, do you throw kitchen sink at it?

 

I suffered through 32 of those years. I often wondered why we never "threw the sink" when we were closest to winning it all. I was pissed that Sox management seemed to just care about keeping us competitive enough to keep interest high and profits higher.

 

I remember telling fellow Sox fans that i'd gladly take 10 last place finishes for just one ring. I meant it down to my very soul.

 

Once we won the ring in 2004, that feeling left me fully. I got greedy and wanted more. I also realized that with this new ownership and management team, we didn't have to wait ten years to throw a new sink. We could stay highly competitive year after year and maybe win a few more rings. The 2007 championship with a different ace showed continuous winning was possible under strong management and ownership. Going from 2007 to 2013 was a bit painful but not anywhere near how it was from the early 70's, when I became a Sox fan, to 2004. Three last place finishes from 2012 to 2015 with a ring in 2013 was eerily like my childhood wishes, but that ring sure felt great, especially in light of what happened in Boston that spring of 2013. We also built a hell of a farm system during those four years. That helped outweigh the 3 piss-poor seasons surrounding the ring year.

 

Throw the sink every time we feel very close to a ring? Tough decision. I love winning rings, but I love staying highly competitive every year or building the farm towards a long term winning future. It's not always possible to do both. I do think we went out of balance to go for it all in a 3-4 year window period, but at least we didn't throw the sink for just one season. Once we have gone "unbalanced", I'm for doing what is necessary to improve our chances this year- not by trading a top 3 prospect, but by making a minor deal or two at 3B and maybe SPing without totally depleting our farm system. Maybe it's not really throwing a sink this summer, but surely a sink or two were thrown last winter.

 

 

 

 

 

[Nick]

Opening Thread by our esteem colleague, Moon posted on March 30th

 

A Realistic View at 2017 Part II

With opening day just around the corner, and the roster taking shape, it's time for Part II.

 

(Part I reference:

http://www.talksox.com/forum/threads...at-2017-Part-I )

 

Here's my Red Sox positional depth chart (assuming 100% healthy):

 

C: Leon, Vazquez, Swihart (AAA), Butler (AAA)

1B: Moreland (vs RHPs)/ Ramirez (vs LHPs- DH vs RHPs), Travis (AAA), Craig?

2B: Pedroia, Hernandez (AAA), Holt, Rutledge

3B: Sandoval, Hernandez (AAA), Rutledge, Holt

SS: Bogaerts, Hernandez (AAA), Holt, Marrero (AAA)

LF: Benintendi, Young (DH vs LHPs), Slesky (AAA), Moreland, Brentz (Trade/DFA)

CF: Bradley, (Beni from LF), Holt

RF: Betts, Young, Holt, Moreland

 

SP: Sale, Price, Porcello, Rodriguez, Wright, Pomeranz (long relief)

AAA: Kendrick, Johnson, Elias, Owens, Velazquez, Haviland

RP: Kimbrel, Thornburg, Smith, Kelly, Ross, Hembree

 

4 options at 3B is not playing for the parent team right now.....pretty amazing. And look at our relievers. I'd say to be up 3 games is pretty fortunate. Sale and Kimbrel have been lights out.

Edited July 3, 2017 by Nick

[moonslav59]

4 options at 3B is not playing for the parent team right now.....pretty amazing. And look at our relievers. I'd say to be up 3 games is pretty fortunate. Sale and Kimbrel have been lights out.

 

I had low expectations for the pen I listed that included Smith Thornburg and Ross. Maybe the pendulum will swing back as some of these guys come back to earth. We may need a pen arm at the deadline.

 

3B has been shockingly bad, and this "shock" comes despite having low expectations at 3B to start with. It is badder than bad. Something must and will be done to address that issue.

 

I think we stand pat with SP'ing despite losing Wright for the season and only being 6 deep to begin with.

 

We will not get the "big bat" many here felt we needed to have a significant chance at a 2017 ring.

 

Just my opinions.

[Emp9]

Jhonny Peralta Watch:

 

4 G, 4 RBI, 18 AB, .222 BA, .600 BA vs LHP, .o77 BA vs RHP, .333 BA w/ Runners on, .400 BA w/ RISP

 

Tha's all I got, not much of a sample size yet....

[a700hitter]

The 2013 ring turned the cliff into a mole hill.

We had a cliff before 2013 and a bigger one after 2013, and it felt like a cliff --no meaningful baseball after July in 3 seasons. That was the worst stretch of futility in my lifetime.

[Nick]

We had a cliff before 2013 and a bigger one after 2013, and it felt like a cliff --no meaningful baseball after July in 3 seasons. That was the worst stretch of futility in my lifetime.

 

I was reduced to watching only those games started by E ROD. Nothing else about that team held me captive. Who wants to watch a crappy team? There's better things to do. (Unrelateed....Wade Miley gets knocked out in 1 2/3 innings pitched, 7 hits, 7 runs, all earned....they only seemed to get up for the Red Sox)

Edited July 3, 2017 by Nick

[Kimmi]

I do want to point out that Sox went 85 years without a world series ring.

 

When you're close, do you throw kitchen sink at it?

 

The problem with throwing the kitchen sink at it is that it does not guarantee anything. And then we're left with even a steeper cliff than we currently have. I am against the 'win now at any cost' philosophy. I think there has to be a more balanced approach between short and long terms.

[Kimmi]

We had a cliff before 2013 and a bigger one after 2013, and it felt like a cliff --no meaningful baseball after July in 3 seasons. That was the worst stretch of futility in my lifetime.

 

It's not a cliff if the team is projected to do well but doesn't live up to expectations. It's a cliff when you know, going into the season, that your team is likely going nowhere. 2014 and 2015 were not the fault of the GM, as much as most people want to believe otherwise.

[S5Dewey]

I feel blessed to be a Red Sox fan. I often think about the fans of teams who know on June 1 that their team is going noplace. These people who come to those games must be true baseball fans.

 

Well.. all but in Tampa Bay in the past. Those people are just jerks. NOBODY should be allowed to bring a cowbell to a ball game!

[Nick]

I feel blessed to be a Red Sox fan. I often think about the fans of teams who know on June 1 that their team is going noplace. These people who come to those games must be true baseball fans.

 

Well.. all but in Tampa Bay in the past. Those people are just jerks. NOBODY should be allowed to bring a cowbell to a ball game!

 

sorry I caouldn"t resist

[moonslav59]

It's not a cliff if the team is projected to do well but doesn't live up to expectations. It's a cliff when you know, going into the season, that your team is likely going nowhere. 2014 and 2015 were not the fault of the GM, as much as most people want to believe otherwise.

 

Agreed. While those season's sucked, we had decent expectations in some of them. No way did any expert project last place finishes.

 

I've been a Sox fan since the early 70's. There was a lot more "futility" before the Henry era.

[moonslav59]

On the farm tonight...

 

Peralta 0-4

 

Holt 2-4 with an HR

 

Pablo 2-4

 

Paw Sox give up 5 in the 9th to lose (Noe Ramirez & A Maddox give up a 5-1 lead).

 

Devers 2-4 with an HR and 4 RBI

 

Chavis 1-4 and an RBI

 

Ockimey 2-6 with his 8th HR and 2 RBI

 

[oldtimer]

The Sox went into Texas after 3 successful for longish games against Toronto and into the really hot weather and after a long flight. Fortuneately, JF was able to use Abad in relief closing the Toronto series so the bull pen came in somewhat rested and the starters were and are on regular rotation. To tough out a win required a lot of good things, and some not so good to happen.

 

To me first among the good was the magnificent play by Dustin. He may have lost a step but he makes up with it in savy play. His hitting was clutch as he didn't try to do too much and his fielding was superb and made the win possible. Also, I credit our outfield play with all three fielders doing well and Young making catches like a premier outfielder.

 

 

JF had started his mainly right hand hitting lineup with essentially 3 rookie players since Bogey is still hurting. Travis, Lin and Marrero field their positions well and Lin might be a better fielding SS than Bogey. He is also a smart base runner with excellent speed. If you count Beni in the rookie mix, we really had 4 in the game last night and none really hurt us.

 

I thought Betts did some smart hitting as Texas was being so careful of him. He took walks and didn't chase. Finally, his double was key in winning the game.

 

As far as pitching, the strike zone was very small but consistent last night so Porcello was up against it and faired well. His issues come when he leaves a sinker up in the zone belt high and over the plate. He did that maybe three times all told last night. The final time he was tired and JF may have mistakenly left him in too long. Our relief pitching was pretty good. Scott made an excellent pitch but the hitter fought it off for a double down the line. Small hiccups in relief are to be expected though and we had ours. Hembree came in and gave us two solid innings to win the game.

 

In my opinion there were a couple of bad things worth mentioning. Hanley, who has been raking it recently, had some dumb at bats. He was up with the bases loaded and swung out of his shoes at balls outsside the strike zone (hero ball). He didn't look right all night. Beni, who wound up getting the winning hit, is still hitting predominently to left field with fly balls. He would do much better getting some more power into his hitting by pulling at least some balls. He is a smart young hitter and I expect him to work out where he can do better.

 

Great start in Texas although they will face Darvish the Texas ace next up an runs will be very difficult to come by. Haven't heard about Bogey, but I would sit hm if there is a lingering groin soreness. We will need him in the long term so no reason to take chances there.

[Bellhorn04]

The Sox went into Texas after 3 successful for longish games against Toronto and into the really hot weather and after a long flight. Fortuneately, JF was able to use Abad in relief closing the Toronto series so the bull pen came in somewhat rested and the starters were and are on regular rotation. To tough out a win required a lot of good things, and some not so good to happen.

 

To me first among the good was the magnificent play by Dustin. He may have lost a step but he makes up with it in savy play. His hitting was clutch as he didn't try to do too much and his fielding was superb and made the win possible. Also, I credit our outfield play with all three fielders doing well and Young making catches like a premier outfielder.

 

 

JF had started his mainly right hand hitting lineup with essentially 3 rookie players since Bogey is still hurting. Travis, Lin and Marrero field their positions well and Lin might be a better fielding SS than Bogey. He is also a smart base runner with excellent speed. If you count Beni in the rookie mix, we really had 4 in the game last night and none really hurt us.

 

I thought Betts did some smart hitting as Texas was being so careful of him. He took walks and didn't chase. Finally, his double was key in winning the game.

 

As far as pitching, the strike zone was very small but consistent last night so Porcello was up against it and faired well. His issues come when he leaves a sinker up in the zone belt high and over the plate. He did that maybe three times all told last night. The final time he was tired and JF may have mistakenly left him in too long. Our relief pitching was pretty good. Scott made an excellent pitch but the hitter fought it off for a double down the line. Small hiccups in relief are to be expected though and we had ours. Hembree came in and gave us two solid innings to win the game.

 

In my opinion there were a couple of bad things worth mentioning. Hanley, who has been raking it recently, had some dumb at bats. He was up with the bases loaded and swung out of his shoes at balls outsside the strike zone (hero ball). He didn't look right all night. Beni, who wound up getting the winning hit, is still hitting predominently to left field with fly balls. He would do much better getting some more power into his hitting by pulling at least some balls. He is a smart young hitter and I expect him to work out where he can do better.

 

Great start in Texas although they will face Darvish the Texas ace next up an runs will be very difficult to come by. Haven't heard about Bogey, but I would sit hm if there is a lingering groin soreness. We will need him in the long term so no reason to take chances there.

 

Good post!

[Kimmi]

I feel blessed to be a Red Sox fan. I often think about the fans of teams who know on June 1 that their team is going noplace. These people who come to those games must be true baseball fans.

 

Well.. all but in Tampa Bay in the past. Those people are just jerks. NOBODY should be allowed to bring a cowbell to a ball game!

 

We really do have it pretty good as Red Sox fans.

[Kimmi]

Agreed. While those season's sucked, we had decent expectations in some of them. No way did any expert project last place finishes.

 

I've been a Sox fan since the early 70's. There was a lot more "futility" before the Henry era.

 

In the 2014 season, pretty much everyone, computers systems and baseball analysts, projected the Sox to finish in first place. The projections weren't quite as good in 2015, but the Sox were projected to be a contender. The teams each of those years were built to contend. What happens on the field is beyond the GMs control.

[Kimmi]

The Sox went into Texas after 3 successful for longish games against Toronto and into the really hot weather and after a long flight. Fortuneately, JF was able to use Abad in relief closing the Toronto series so the bull pen came in somewhat rested and the starters were and are on regular rotation. To tough out a win required a lot of good things, and some not so good to happen.

 

To me first among the good was the magnificent play by Dustin. He may have lost a step but he makes up with it in savy play. His hitting was clutch as he didn't try to do too much and his fielding was superb and made the win possible. Also, I credit our outfield play with all three fielders doing well and Young making catches like a premier outfielder.

 

 

JF had started his mainly right hand hitting lineup with essentially 3 rookie players since Bogey is still hurting. Travis, Lin and Marrero field their positions well and Lin might be a better fielding SS than Bogey. He is also a smart base runner with excellent speed. If you count Beni in the rookie mix, we really had 4 in the game last night and none really hurt us.

 

I thought Betts did some smart hitting as Texas was being so careful of him. He took walks and didn't chase. Finally, his double was key in winning the game.

 

As far as pitching, the strike zone was very small but consistent last night so Porcello was up against it and faired well. His issues come when he leaves a sinker up in the zone belt high and over the plate. He did that maybe three times all told last night. The final time he was tired and JF may have mistakenly left him in too long. Our relief pitching was pretty good. Scott made an excellent pitch but the hitter fought it off for a double down the line. Small hiccups in relief are to be expected though and we had ours. Hembree came in and gave us two solid innings to win the game.

 

In my opinion there were a couple of bad things worth mentioning. Hanley, who has been raking it recently, had some dumb at bats. He was up with the bases loaded and swung out of his shoes at balls outsside the strike zone (hero ball). He didn't look right all night. Beni, who wound up getting the winning hit, is still hitting predominently to left field with fly balls. He would do much better getting some more power into his hitting by pulling at least some balls. He is a smart young hitter and I expect him to work out where he can do better.

 

Great start in Texas although they will face Darvish the Texas ace next up an runs will be very difficult to come by. Haven't heard about Bogey, but I would sit hm if there is a lingering groin soreness. We will need him in the long term so no reason to take chances there.

 

Pretty good analysis Oldtimer.

 

I was not pleased with Hanley's at bats. He looks like he's swinging for the fences, and we know that hitters are usually not successful in doing that. I did read a funny tweet today about how Hanley is 5 for 6 against lefties since he found out he couldn't hit lefties.

 

The next two pitchers we face in Texas will be tougher than what we've faced in the past 4 or 5 games. It was important to win that first game.