Dombrowski Referendum

[Maxbialystock]

I think it's worth a thread even though he's only had 1 year. But reportedly he likes to make things happen right away.

 

I give him credit for: not sending Sandoval or Ramirez elsewhere while paying for part of their salaries; getting Price even though Price absolutely did not live up to his rep or salary in 2016; getting Kimbrel even though Kimbrel clearly has control issues (partial blame on the pitching coach); acquiring Ziegler, who proved useful; getting Young as a platoon outfielder who overall worked out well; only getting rid of one prospect, Espinosa, albeit a great pitching prospect; not firing Farrell this year, but also not giving him a long-term contract.

 

What I blame him for: getting Price, who is more price than performance and by a good margin; dumping Espinosa to get a so-so Pomeranz; not going after Miller or chapman when Cash had the fire sale.

[Spudboy]

Overall I have no complaints about what DD has done so far.

 

He made some required moves to get our team back into contention.

 

Not all of them have worked out yet.

 

Thems the breaks.

[moonslav59]

I think it's worth a thread even though he's only had 1 year. But reportedly he likes to make things happen right away.

 

I give him credit for: not sending Sandoval or Ramirez elsewhere while paying for part of their salaries; getting Price even though Price absolutely did not live up to his rep or salary in 2016; getting Kimbrel even though Kimbrel clearly has control issues (partial blame on the pitching coach); acquiring Ziegler, who proved useful; getting Young as a platoon outfielder who overall worked out well; only getting rid of one prospect, Espinosa, albeit a great pitching prospect; not firing Farrell this year, but also not giving him a long-term contract.

 

What I blame him for: getting Price, who is more price than performance and by a good margin; dumping Espinosa to get a so-so Pomeranz; not going after Miller or chapman when Cash had the fire sale.

 

Margot was a highly ranked prospect, and Guerra was ranked pretty highly by some, so Espi was not the only prospect traded by DD.

[moonslav59]

I liked the Young signing and Ziegler trade.

 

I was against everything else, but within the context of trying to win for Papi's last year, I can understand why he did what he did. The fact that Kimbrel and Price are under team control for 2 more years is another factor in DD's favor.

 

I'm not happy with DD so far, but I am far from blaming him or suggesting he should be replaced.

 

We still have a nice core of young players, another core of nice top prospect, and a few vets that are still within prime. Our oldest players on the roster right now are Young (33) and HanRam (32)!

[jacksonianmarch]

DD was handed a last place team and turned them into AL East champs immediately.

[moonslav59]

DD was handed a last place team and turned them into AL East champs immediately.

 

...and the guy he replaced turned a last place team into a World Series Champ.

 

If the Price signings ends up like the Pablo signing, DD may end up with the same fate as Ben.

[Dojji]

DD was handed a last place team and turned them into AL East champs immediately.

 

Yep. There's stuff to criticize, but the man has done his job -- he goes nowhere.

[Dojji]

...and the guy he replaced turned a last place team into a World Series Champ.

 

WHen did Ben Cherington win the World Series again? Seems to me that 2013 was mostly Theo's team. The only guys I give Cherries full marks for are Victorino and Stephen Drew.

[cp176]

To date an excellent job. He made some moves. Micro manage them and hind sight them to death if you will but in no way were they careless in nature and in no way has he jeopardized the future of the franchise. trading Margot and Espinoza seem to be an upset to some. Get that - you are entitled to your opinion. I am a tight old Scotsman and I wouldn't bet one penney on either of those guys making him look bad in the future.

[Youk Of The Nation]

not going after Miller or chapman when Cash had the fire sale.

 

Fire sale or not, in what universe was Brian Cashman going to make any deal that sent two extremely good bullpen arms to the Red Sox? Dombrowski could have offered Cashman the entire farm system and a year's supply of filet mignon and Cashman still would have sent back the offer along with the severed head of the messenger.

[Maxbialystock]

Fire sale or not, in what universe was Brian Cashman going to make any deal that sent two extremely good bullpen arms to the Red Sox? Dombrowski could have offered Cashman the entire farm system and a year's supply of filet mignon and Cashman still would have sent back the offer along with the severed head of the messenger.

 

I love it. You are no doubt right.

[GomesBeard]

Overall, I'm satisfied with DD. Agree re: Chapman and Miller, no way we were going to get them. Re: Price, I'm willing to wait anther year before calling it a bust or mistake. I think some of what he went through was typical 'trying to live up to a huge contract in a new tough market and male everyone like you'. I think he will be better next year. And he didn't totally suck, he did pitch 230 innings and win 17 games, including 7 in a row in August and September.

[Eddy Ballgame]

Fire sale or not, in what universe was Brian Cashman going to make any deal that sent two extremely good bullpen arms to the Red Sox? Dombrowski could have offered Cashman the entire farm system and a year's supply of filet mignon and Cashman still would have sent back the offer along with the severed head of the messenger.

 

Lol....Especially Miller, who is signed for 2 more years. Zero chance of that ever happening

[moonslav59]

WHen did Ben Cherington win the World Series again? Seems to me that 2013 was mostly Theo's team. The only guys I give Cherries full marks for are Victorino and Stephen Drew.

 

You mean the last place Theo team of 2012?

 

Last place.

 

If the 2013 teams was Theo's then the 2016 is Ben's.

[moonslav59]

Overall, I'm satisfied with DD. Agree re: Chapman and Miller, no way we were going to get them. Re: Price, I'm willing to wait anther year before calling it a bust or mistake. I think some of what he went through was typical 'trying to live up to a huge contract in a new tough market and male everyone like you'. I think he will be better next year. And he didn't totally suck, he did pitch 230 innings and win 17 games, including 7 in a row in August and September.

 

We should have signed Miller to $40M/4.

[Kimmi]

WHen did Ben Cherington win the World Series again? Seems to me that 2013 was mostly Theo's team. The only guys I give Cherries full marks for are Victorino and Stephen Drew.

 

Seriously? You're going to say that 2013 was mostly Theo's team, yet you're going to give Dombrowski credit for the 2016 team?

 

For one, Ben was Theo's right hand man when Theo was GM. Ben gets some credit for "Theo's team", unlike Dombrowski, who had nothing to do with the players already in place when he took over.

 

For two, the only reason that Dombrowski was able to make the moves that he did was because of the strong farm and the strong core of young players on the big league team, put in place by Theo and Ben.

 

For three, even without points one and two, I would venture to guess that 2013 was more Ben's team than 2016 is Dombrowski's team.

[Kimmi]

I think it's worth a thread even though he's only had 1 year. But reportedly he likes to make things happen right away.

 

I give him credit for: not sending Sandoval or Ramirez elsewhere while paying for part of their salaries; getting Price even though Price absolutely did not live up to his rep or salary in 2016; getting Kimbrel even though Kimbrel clearly has control issues (partial blame on the pitching coach); acquiring Ziegler, who proved useful; getting Young as a platoon outfielder who overall worked out well; only getting rid of one prospect, Espinosa, albeit a great pitching prospect; not firing Farrell this year, but also not giving him a long-term contract.

 

What I blame him for: getting Price, who is more price than performance and by a good margin; dumping Espinosa to get a so-so Pomeranz; not going after Miller or chapman when Cash had the fire sale.

 

I give Dombrowski credit for having a plan, and getting it done. As you said, he makes things happen. He got us the best free agent pitcher and the best closer available. I'm not happy with the prices that he paid for them, but I do like the quality of the players that he got.

 

Price was a bit of a disappointment, but that is not Dombrowski's fault.

 

I really liked the trade for Smith.

 

Our long term outlook has not been sacrificed.

 

All in all, so far, I have no major complaints. As I have said in other threads, though, I remain concerned with the direction that the philosophy of the team might be headed.

[moonslav59]

I really liked the trade for Smith.

 

DD wasn't the GM when we traded for Lee Smith.

Edited November 1, 2016 by moonslav59

[moonslav59]

GMs are judged in hindsight. Right or wrong, that's just the way it is. I don't like assigning blame when things go wrong, and since we went from last to first, "going wrong" is debatable. I am often critical of individual moves by our GMs, but I don't think of it as "blaming them". They have enormous pressure on them to win now, and my philosophy is more about looking longer term. Theo even admitted he lost sight of the longer term in his later years in Boston.

 

I disliked DD's biggest moves at the time, so this is not Monday morning quarterbacking for me.

 

The biggest move was signing Price with an out option after 3 years. The money was absurd, but in today's market, he "got what he was worth". However, most big signings do not work out, even in the short term. I said at the time, I understood the great need to add an ace and that "Price was probably the best FA SP'er to come along in a long time." I don't "blame him" for signing him. I preferred Cueto, but I'm not trying to pretend I'm smarter than DD, Ben, Theo or Dan D. Now, in hindsight, the signing does not look good so far. He did not reach expectation in his first regular season, and that's when the big value was supposed to materialize. We all expected lower value in years 5-7, but not #1, although I did warn of the poor past history of these mega signings.

 

The next biggest deal was the Margot, Guerra, Allen and Asuaje. Sure, Guerra's stock has fallen, so the "hindsight" part of viewing the trade looks a little better than if he was doing well, but at the risk of beating a dead horse repeatedlymy argument at the time of the deal was that we gave up a lot of young talent for a relief pitcher. Then, when you figure he is being paid similar to free agent closer money, we double-dipped on the "overpay." Yes, I get the argument that Margot was blocked by Beni, but many here felt Beni was rushed, and the trade for Kimbrel was not the only trade option. The hindsight view of the trade has to look worse than it did at the time. Kimbrel did not pitch like a top 3 closer this year. That's what we thought we were getting. That's what I thought we were getting and I still hated the trade. I'm not going to say, "See, I told you so!" because I thought he would be a top 3 closer this year. My beef was not about him projecting decline, but the decline certainly makes the deal look worse to me now.

 

The third biggest deal was the Espi for Pomeranz trade. I hated the trade at the time, because I felt we should have looked to create a bigger package for a better starter. Pomeranz had pitched like an ace for just a half a season. We needed a starter. We were in a pennant race. I get why we did it. I'm not "blaming" DD for doing it, but I still think it was a gross overpay. I'm glad it was for 2 more years of team control with Pom, and I hope to hell he pitches well for us the next 2 years. I hate blaming a GM for an injury, but the fact is, so far, the Pom part of the trade has not lived up to expectations.

 

The Ziegler deal was probably his distant fourth biggest deal. I liked it at the time, even though the "other Basabe" looked promising. Ziegler did great for us. The deal was good in foresight and good in hindsight.

 

Overall, our roster looks strong. We have maybe 2-3 weak links, and the main core of our top prospects are still intact. This winter may be an even more defining time period for DD than last winter's glitzy bombshells.

 

[Nick]

GMs are judged in hindsight. Right or wrong, that's just the way it is. I don't like assigning blame when things go wrong, and since we went from last to first, "going wrong" is debatable. I am often critical of individual moves by our GMs, but I don't think of it as "blaming them". They have enormous pressure on them to win now, and my philosophy is more about looking longer term. Theo even admitted he lost sight of the longer term in his later years in Boston.

 

I disliked DD's biggest moves at the time, so this is not Monday morning quarterbacking for me.

 

The biggest move was signing Price with an out option after 3 years. The money was absurd, but in today's market, he "got what he was worth". However, most big signings do not work out, even in the short term. I said at the time, I understood the great need to add an ace and that "Price was probably the best FA SP'er to come along in a long time." I don't "blame him" for signing him. I preferred Cueto, but I'm not trying to pretend I'm smarter than DD, Ben, Theo or Dan D. Now, in hindsight, the signing does not look good so far. He did not reach expectation in his first regular season, and that's when the big value was supposed to materialize. We all expected lower value in years 5-7, but not #1, although I did warn of the poor past history of these mega signings.

 

The next biggest deal was the Margot, Guerra, Allen and Asuaje. Sure, Guerra's stock has fallen, so the "hindsight" part of viewing the trade looks a little better than if he was doing well, but at the risk of beating a dead horse repeatedlymy argument at the time of the deal was that we gave up a lot of young talent for a relief pitcher. Then, when you figure he is being paid similar to free agent closer money, we double-dipped on the "overpay." Yes, I get the argument that Margot was blocked by Beni, but many here felt Beni was rushed, and the trade for Kimbrel was not the only trade option. The hindsight view of the trade has to look worse than it did at the time. Kimbrel did not pitch like a top 3 closer this year. That's what we thought we were getting. That's what I thought we were getting and I still hated the trade. I'm not going to say, "See, I told you so!" because I thought he would be a top 3 closer this year. My beef was not about him projecting decline, but the decline certainly makes the deal look worse to me now.

 

The third biggest deal was the Espi for Pomeranz trade. I hated the trade at the time, because I felt we should have looked to create a bigger package for a better starter. Pomeranz had pitched like an ace for just a half a season. We needed a starter. We were in a pennant race. I get why we did it. I'm not "blaming" DD for doing it, but I still think it was a gross overpay. I'm glad it was for 2 more years of team control with Pom, and I hope to hell he pitches well for us the next 2 years. I hate blaming a GM for an injury, but the fact is, so far, the Pom part of the trade has not lived up to expectations.

 

The Ziegler deal was probably his distant fourth biggest deal. I liked it at the time, even though the "other Basabe" looked promising. Ziegler did great for us. The deal was good in foresight and good in hindsight.

 

Overall, our roster looks strong. We have maybe 2-3 weak links, and the main core of our top prospects are still intact. This winter may be an even more defining time period for DD than last winter's glitzy bombshells.

 

 

We won the Division title after finishing dead last for 2 straight years. Our farm system is still in good shape. Thank God our GM sucks.

[cp176]

GMs are judged in hindsight. Right or wrong, that's just the way it is. I don't like assigning blame when things go wrong, and since we went from last to first, "going wrong" is debatable. I am often critical of individual moves by our GMs, but I don't think of it as "blaming them". They have enormous pressure on them to win now, and my philosophy is more about looking longer term. Theo even admitted he lost sight of the longer term in his later years in Boston.

 

I disliked DD's biggest moves at the time, so this is not Monday morning quarterbacking for me.

 

The biggest move was signing Price with an out option after 3 years. The money was absurd, but in today's market, he "got what he was worth". However, most big signings do not work out, even in the short term. I said at the time, I understood the great need to add an ace and that "Price was probably the best FA SP'er to come along in a long time." I don't "blame him" for signing him. I preferred Cueto, but I'm not trying to pretend I'm smarter than DD, Ben, Theo or Dan D. Now, in hindsight, the signing does not look good so far. He did not reach expectation in his first regular season, and that's when the big value was supposed to materialize. We all expected lower value in years 5-7, but not #1, although I did warn of the poor past history of these mega signings.

 

The next biggest deal was the Margot, Guerra, Allen and Asuaje. Sure, Guerra's stock has fallen, so the "hindsight" part of viewing the trade looks a little better than if he was doing well, but at the risk of beating a dead horse repeatedlymy argument at the time of the deal was that we gave up a lot of young talent for a relief pitcher. Then, when you figure he is being paid similar to free agent closer money, we double-dipped on the "overpay." Yes, I get the argument that Margot was blocked by Beni, but many here felt Beni was rushed, and the trade for Kimbrel was not the only trade option. The hindsight view of the trade has to look worse than it did at the time. Kimbrel did not pitch like a top 3 closer this year. That's what we thought we were getting. That's what I thought we were getting and I still hated the trade. I'm not going to say, "See, I told you so!" because I thought he would be a top 3 closer this year. My beef was not about him projecting decline, but the decline certainly makes the deal look worse to me now.

 

The third biggest deal was the Espi for Pomeranz trade. I hated the trade at the time, because I felt we should have looked to create a bigger package for a better starter. Pomeranz had pitched like an ace for just a half a season. We needed a starter. We were in a pennant race. I get why we did it. I'm not "blaming" DD for doing it, but I still think it was a gross overpay. I'm glad it was for 2 more years of team control with Pom, and I hope to hell he pitches well for us the next 2 years. I hate blaming a GM for an injury, but the fact is, so far, the Pom part of the trade has not lived up to expectations.

 

The Ziegler deal was probably his distant fourth biggest deal. I liked it at the time, even though the "other Basabe" looked promising. Ziegler did great for us. The deal was good in foresight and good in hindsight.

 

Overall, our roster looks strong. We have maybe 2-3 weak links, and the main core of our top prospects are still intact. This winter may be an even more defining time period for DD than last winter's glitzy bombshells.

 

 

Come on now - you know that you are hindsight's master. The Red Sox have made a ton of huge deals over the years. Some have worked out, more I guess have not. I'll leave that up to you. I like DD's moves because they have been rational and seem to make sense. Of course we all wish that Kimbrel and Price could have shown the dominance that they have shown but who knew? None of us really wanted to see Smith get injured. DD has not simply thrown crap against the wall in hopes that some would stick as his predecessors have done. Sensible moves in the present tense! We'll see how this off-season works out for him.

[Dojji]

I want to apologize. I was being unnecessarily peevish.

[Bellhorn04]

I want to apologize. I was being unnecessarily peevish.

 

No worries Dojji...we all are sometimes.

[mvp 78]

Overall I have no complaints about what DD has done so far.

 

He made some required moves to get our team back into contention.

 

Not all of them have worked out yet.

 

Thems the breaks.

 

That's how I feel too. Need to give the GM a few years before you can right him off.

[moonslav59]

We won the Division title after finishing dead last for 2 straight years. Our farm system is still in good shape. Thank God our GM sucks.

 

Never said he sucks. Never even said he was below average.

[mvp 78]

...and the guy he replaced turned a last place team into a World Series Champ.

 

If the Price signings ends up like the Pablo signing, DD may end up with the same fate as Ben.

 

The 2012 Sox weren't in last place until they traded half their roster.

 

Under Ben's watch, he had a full roster that tanked for two straight years, which hadn't happened in modern Sox history.

[Dojji]

Yeah, sorry for BC, but them's the breaks, you are judged based on the results, and BC's results are 1 great year and 3 crap ones. He'd probably be a great GM for a small market team, but he wasn't the right guy in Boston.

[moonslav59]

Come on now - you know that you are hindsight's master.

 

100% wrong.

 

I have never said "I told you so" after price, Kimbrel and Pom all failed to reach expectations.

I was highly critical of the trades the second they occurred. That's not "hindsight".

I'm also not one to try and blame everything on one guy or player. I was the last to call for Bobby V's firing. I didn't even complain about leaving Pedro in.

 

The Red Sox have made a ton of huge deals over the years. Some have worked out, more I guess have not. I'll leave that up to you. I like DD's moves because they have been rational and seem to make sense. Of course we all wish that Kimbrel and Price could have shown the dominance that they have shown but who knew? None of us really wanted to see Smith get injured. DD has not simply thrown crap against the wall in hopes that some would stick as his predecessors have done. Sensible moves in the present tense! We'll see how this off-season works out for him.

 

I liked the Carson Smith and Ziegler deals at the time they were made. I have said so many times. I'm not upset with DD. I realize why he made the deals I disliked just like I did with the Iggy trade and the great 2014 pitcher purge. I also called (at the time of the trade) the Dodger Dump "perhaps the best trade made by a Sox GM in my lifetime". I'm not always against trades and signings. I liked the Porcello trade and extension AT THE TIME. I liked the Napoli signing and re-signing. I liked the Uehara trade, AT THE TIME, and the re-signings.

 

[mvp 78]

When Ben was the GM:

they refused to resign Lester

they traded Lester away

they traded Lackey away for nothing

they signed Pablo and Hanley at the same time when they only needed one of them

 

He's front and center for the terrible 2014 and 2015 seasons. He can have all the credit for 2013, but he should take all the blame for the following 2 years.

[moonslav59]

The 2012 Sox weren't in last place until they traded half their roster.

 

Under Ben's watch, he had a full roster that tanked for two straight years, which hadn't happened in modern Sox history.

 

The 2011 team "tanked". The clubhouse was in turmoil like never before. Have you forgotten the state of the team from 2011 to 2012? We were 11.5 games out 4 days before the deadline in 2012. What a great team Ben inherited!

 

They were sure great "on paper"!

 

Then, he makes 3 mid-level signings (Naps, Viv & Demp) and the team comes together and wins a ring.

 

Had HanRam played like 2016 in 2015, we wouldn't have finished in last place. I guess that's Ben's fault.

 

DD makes big glitzy signings and trades and we don't advance past the first round, and he gets your pat on the back.