Dombrowski Referendum

[moonslav59]

If the Sox deal for Sale - would expect Rodriguez to be part of it - gets the White Sox a major league starter with top of the rotation capability (at least potentially).

 

Maybe JBJ, Swihart and Pom.

[Jack Flap]

Looks like this has turned into more of a Cherington thread than a Dombrowski thread?

 

Anyway, I don't think we have a whole lot to evaluate with Dombrowski yet. I think it's fair to say that his three big acquisitions (Price, Kimbrel, Pomeranz) all fell mildly to moderately below expectations after being acquired. I was never a big fan of the two trades with the Padres, but I'm willing to give those moves time to work out. Was on board with signing Price because despite the risk inherent in giving a 30 year old pitcher that type of money, he has the pedigree and there were no better options. The early exit from the postseason was disappointing, but as we so often hear, the playoffs are a crapshoot; it's hard to argue with a worst-to-first season, and we remain well-set for the next few. On the whole, I remain cautiously optimistic about the Dombrowski era.

[moonslav59]

...it's hard to argue with a worst-to-first season, and we remain well-set for the next few...

 

I agree, but I felt the same way after 2013.

[southpaw777]

No he didn't. Lugo was barely over replacement level in 2007. He was never worth the money he was paid. But we didn't have anyone better to turn the job over to, so we had no choice but to keep rolling him out there.

 

I remember attending a Sox party with a friend who was close with one of the heads of security for Fenway Park. most of the Sox brass there. True story. Theo comes over to the table Im at. Was talking to someone that was at the same table as us at the time. And after talking pleasentries for a couple minutes, and in a somewhat slightly intoxicated voice said, "Ok, I gotta get outta here and take care of this Lugo s***"...I believe within 36hrs Lugo was released...

[moonslav59]

I remember attending a Sox party with a friend who was close with one of the heads of security for Fenway Park. most of the Sox brass there. True story. Theo comes over to the table Im at. Was talking to someone that was at the same table as us at the time. And after talking pleasentries for a couple minutes, and in a somewhat slightly intoxicated voice said, "Ok, I gotta get outta here and take care of this Lugo s***"...I believe within 36hrs Lugo was released...

 

Lugo was a mess after the injury. He was barely a break even or plus beforehand.

 

Expecting him to become our lead off hitter was a mistake.

 

His defense, helped greatly by a plus range, was not bad that first year. People tend to remember mostly the ending.

[southpaw777]

Lugo was a mess after the injury. He was barely a break even or plus beforehand.

 

Expecting him to become our lead off hitter was a mistake.

 

His defense, helped greatly by a plus range, was not bad that first year. People tend to remember mostly the ending.

 

I remember watching him in TB when I lived there and cringed when i found out we picked him up. He was guarenteed to throw one in the photpgrapgers booth or up the RF line every few throws...not an accurate arm at all. Made some great plays to get to the balls, but the throws were always an adventure with him...

[moonslav59]

I remember watching him in TB when I lived there and cringed when i found out we picked him up. He was guarenteed to throw one in the photpgrapgers booth or up the RF line every few throws...not an accurate arm at all. Made some great plays to get to the balls, but the throws were always an adventure with him...

 

I think he more than made up for his errors by getting to more balls than most SSs did, but just barely, and once he got hurt, his one plus was taken away, and he became a massive minus.

[southpaw777]

I think he more than made up for his errors by getting to more balls than most SSs did, but just barely, and once he got hurt, his one plus was taken away, and he became a massive minus.

 

Like i said, he got to a lot of balls..great range...then hed throw it away so Im not sure how he made up for it. Yes, after the injury he was done. And I was happy to see his sorry ass go.

It was kinda the Same with Crawford. I watched in tampa and heard him say he didnt want to be a leader of the team, refused to play cf, refused to leadoff and was a bit of a cry baby...i cringed hard on that one...

When you watch these guys in a very easy atmosphere to play and still have issues, Im not sure what Theo was thinking. Character in a player is huge...

Edited November 20, 2016 by southpaw777

[moonslav59]

Like i said, he got to a lot of balls..great range...then hed throw it away so Im not sure how he made up for it. Yes, after the injury he was done. And I was happy to see his sorry ass go.

It was kinda the Same with Crawford. I watched in tampa and heard him say he didnt want to be a leader of the team, refused to play cf, refused to leadoff and was a bit of a cry baby...i cringed hard on that one...

When you watch these guys in a very easy atmosphere to play and still have issues, Im not sure what Theo was thinking. Character in a player is huge...

 

The 2007 season was much different from his later years. I can't believe I'm defending his defense. I hated the signing and used to argue with softy the clown that we won despite Lugo, not because of him.

 

In 2007, he made only 8 throwing errors. He certainly got to more than 8 balls, since he had the 8th best SS range factor in MLB.

 

He was a big letdown at bat, but we should have seen that coming as well. Once he got injured, he fell off a cliff on defense.

 

His DRS went from

0 in 2007

to

-6 in 2008

and

-18 in 2009

 

He was average on defense in 2007 and sucked aftewards.

[Bellhorn04]

The 2007 season was much different from his later years. I can't believe I'm defending his defense. I hated the signing and used to argue with softy the clown that we won despite Lugo, not because of him.

 

In 2007, he made only 8 throwing errors. He certainly got to more than 8 balls, since he had the 8th best SS range factor in MLB.

 

He was a big letdown at bat, but we should have seen that coming as well. Once he got injured, he fell off a cliff on defense.

 

His DRS went from

0 in 2007

to

-6 in 2008

and

-18 in 2009

 

He was average on defense in 2007 and sucked aftewards.

 

2008 was the year I realized exactly what 'range factor' was. For a while the left side of the infield consisted of two statues - Lugo and Lowell, who I think was playing with a bad hip. There was a very big hole between those two.

[moonslav59]

2008 was the year I realized exactly what 'range factor' was. For a while the left side of the infield consisted of two statues - Lugo and Lowell, who I think was playing with a bad hip. There was a very big hole between those two.

 

I noticed long ago. I noticed with Nomar too. His flashy twirling throws from the hole were a mirage. I fell for the mirage, myself, for the first couple years, but he was a liability on defense. The numbers backit up.

 

Bringing in Cabrera to replace Nomar was (to me) what put us over the top. It was a major reason we won our first ring in decades.

[Bellhorn04]

I noticed long ago. I noticed with Nomar too. His flashy twirling throws from the hole were a mirage. I fell for the mirage, myself, for the first couple years, but he was a liability on defense. The numbers backit up.

 

Bringing in Cabrera to replace Nomar was (to me) what put us over the top. It was a major reason we won our first ring in decades.

 

Cabrera was fantastic that postseason.

[Spudboy]

Cabrera was fantastic that postseason.

 

Too bad he couldn't keep it in his pants.

[moonslav59]

Too bad he couldn't keep it in his pants.

 

One example how clubhouse chemistry took a back seat.

[Kimmi]

Bringing in Cabrera to replace Nomar was (to me) what put us over the top. It was a major reason we won our first ring in decades.

 

One example why Theo is the best.

[cp176]

One example how clubhouse chemistry took a back seat.

Wait - What happened in the backseat? Brings back fond memories.

[moonslav59]

One example why Theo is the best.

 

The day the trade was made, I drove to my brother-in-law's house and proclaimed, "The Sox just made a trade that would finally win us a ring!".

 

He said, "who did we get?"

 

I said, "We traded Nomar for Cabrera."

 

He said, "Who's he?"

 

I told him he was a great defensive SS.

[notin]

WHen did Ben Cherington win the World Series again? Seems to me that 2013 was mostly Theo's team. The only guys I give Cherries full marks for are Victorino and Stephen Drew.

 

Really? No credit for Uehara? No credit for Napoli?

 

Cherington signed about one quarter of that roster prior to the season and won a World Series a mere FOURTEEN MONTHS after the Great Reset Button Trade with th he Dodgers...

[moonslav59]

Napoli was better than AGon in 2013 at a fraction of the cost.

Drew replaced Aviles

Pretty ballsy moved to move Bogey to 3B near the end, but it worked.

Gomes replaced Nava

Vic replaced Cody Ross

Carp was a big plus as a diamond in the rough.

Dempster was a plus in the clubhouse and gave us innings.

Uehara was a huge plus.

 

Ben had a big influence on 2013.

 

[Bellhorn04]

Napoli was better than AGon in 2013 at a fraction of the cost.

Drew replaced Aviles

Pretty ballsy moved to move Bogey to 3B near the end, but it worked.

Gomes replaced Nava

Vic replaced Cody Ross

Carp was a big plus as a diamond in the rough.

Dempster was a plus in the clubhouse and gave us innings.

Uehara was a huge plus.

 

Ben had a big influence on 2013.

 

 

I don't disagree, except usually the term 'fraction of the cost' refers to something a bit less than 59% (13/22).

[Dojji]

42 mil is a pretty small fraction of 151,428,000

 

The beautiful thing about the Napoli contract though is the limited years. We got a good power hitter and a gold glove caliber defender at first base, for less money and far less years.

[moonslav59]

I don't disagree, except usually the term 'fraction of the cost' refers to something a bit less than 59% (13/22).

 

Good point, but that $9M got us some talent we may not have had.

 

We paid Gomes and Uehara a combined $9M.

 

We got Drew for $9M.

 

I know this is cherry-picking, but saving $9M was not chump change, and nobody expected Napoli to outplay AGon that year.

 

[moonslav59]

42 mil is a pretty small fraction of 151,428,000

 

The beautiful thing about the Napoli contract though is the limited years. We got a good power hitter and a gold glove caliber defender at first base, for less money and far less years.

 

When you look at the total savings the Dodger trade gave us for just 2013, here's the numbers:

 

$21.9M AGon

$21.1M Crawford

$17M Beckett

$1.5M Punto

$71.2M Total

minus the $3.9M payment we made to the Dodgers, we saved:

 

$67.1M in 2013 alone!

 

$67.1M out of our 2013 payroll budget of $154,555,000 is over 43% of the budget.

 

The other good thing about that Napoli signing was that if he did not do well, he might have made just $5M. It was clearly a great signing by Ben, and Napoli was an essential part of us winning a ring in 2013, as was Vic and to a lesser extent Drew and Dempster. We probably don't win without Uehara either. Gomes was a minor piece, but still important. Carp helped us early on as well.

 

When's the last time a Sox GM replaced 6 or 7 key positions in one winter, and all of them did well and played roles in winning a ring?

[Kimmi]

The day the trade was made, I drove to my brother-in-law's house and proclaimed, "The Sox just made a trade that would finally win us a ring!".

 

He said, "who did we get?"

 

I said, "We traded Nomar for Cabrera."

 

He said, "Who's he?"

 

I told him he was a great defensive SS.

 

The day the trade was made, I was like WHAT?????? Is Theo crazy????

 

I was so young and naive back then.

[moonslav59]

The day the trade was made, I was like WHAT?????? Is Theo crazy????

 

I was so young and naive back then.

 

Nomar's defense was way over rated.

 

His decline was steep and rapid. Theo unloaded him just in time.

[Bellhorn04]

Question: DD takes a lot of heat for decimating the Tigers farm system. But did he trade away many prospects that went on to become stars? (Or was it just poor drafting and losing picks through FA signings?)

 

I don't think Andrew Miller should count, since it took so long for him to emerge as what he is now.

[moonslav59]

Question: DD takes a lot of heat for decimating the Tigers farm system. But did he trade away many prospects that went on to become stars? (Or was it just poor drafting and losing picks through FA signings?)

 

I don't think Andrew Miller should count, since it took so long for him to emerge as what he is now.

 

A better question might be, has he ever built a farm like the one he inherited to be able to trade better prospects that amounted to anything special afterwards?

[Bellhorn04]

A better question might be, has he ever built a farm like the one he inherited to be able to trade better prospects that amounted to anything special afterwards?

 

I think my question was easier to understand.

[moonslav59]

I think my question was easier to understand.

 

Yes, it was easy to understand, but if he never had great prospects to wrongly trade away, then what do we learn, if we discover he never traded away or hardly ever did trade away a prospect that went on to do great things?

 

[Bellhorn04]

Yes, it was easy to understand, but if he never had great prospects to wrongly trade away, then what do we learn, if we discover he never traded away or hardly ever did trade away a prospect that went on to do great things?

 

If he never had great prospects, that would indicate that his failings with building farm systems resulted from bad drafts and losing picks as compensation for FA's. Just adds some clarity to the picture of his track record.