Lineup Discussions

[bosoxmal]

Betts should have been in the three hole all year! AND, I've been saying that since April. So Betts had an 0-fer; today he had three dingers. Tomorrow it;ll be somewhere in between. Anbody who thinks he should be put back in the lead-off slot must have been watching something else besides Red Sox Baseball all year/

[bosoxmal]

F--- the OBP's. Betts was the lowest of the lot. There's nothing like the eyeball test! Twice, now, this year he's had three dingers in one game. He's finally where he belongs in this line-up----or any other line up for that matter. If it weren't for Untuve, Betts would be a run away for the MVP. Any people still want him to lead off?

[devildavid]

Betts should have been in the three hole all year! AND, I've been saying that since April. So Betts had an 0-fer; today he had three dingers. Tomorrow it;ll be somewhere in between. Anbody who thinks he should be put back in the lead-off slot must have been watching something else besides Red Sox Baseball all year/

 

You were on this from the very beginning. I was one who thought he shouldn't be leading off, but it took me longer to realize what a power hitter he is. You get full credit for your great insight about Mookie. I'm glad to jump on your bandwagon.

[moonslav59]

Just think what would happen if Pedroia liked hitting leadoff. Mookie batting 3rd knocks in 8. Mere coincidence? Hmmm!

 

Yes, still a micro-sample size and and an outlier of a game, but it did demonstrate the general principle quite nicely. Is everyone ok with Mookie batting 3rd now?

 

True, but the micro sample size batting 3rd before today was 3 for 12 (.250/.250/.417/.667)

[moonslav59]

You were on this from the very beginning. I was one who thought he shouldn't be leading off, but it took me longer to realize what a power hitter he is. You get full credit for your great insight about Mookie. I'm glad to jump on your bandwagon.

 

Yes, Bosoxmal was right all along. Nice call!

[a700hitter]

Yes, Bosoxmal was right all along. Nice call!

By time you were born, Boxmal had watched 1000 more games the you ave watched in your entire life. LOL!

[moonslav59]

By time you were born, Boxmal had watched 1000 more games the you ave watched in your entire life. LOL!

 

true, and I'm not young sprout!

 

I watched my first MLB game at Wrigley Field in 1967.

 

I became a Sox fan in 1970.

 

Since 1982, I have tried to watch every pitch of every Sox game live or on TV.

[a700hitter]

true, and I'm not young sprout!

 

I watched my first MLB game at Wrigley Field in 1967.

 

I became a Sox fan in 1970.

 

Since 1982, I have tried to watch every pitch of every Sox game live or on TV.

We must be close in age. My first game was in 1966 and I started rooting for the Red Sox in 1967.

[Nick]

We must be close in age. My first game was in 1966 and I started rooting for the Red Sox in 1967.

 

I was a Tokyo Giants fan until Summer of 1967 when I arrived in US. I guess I could have been a Cardinals fan but I think the Red Sox got better of me. Rico Petrocelli was my guy from get go. Funny that your boyhood team

stays the same until you die.

[Nick]

Xander to me is a singles hitter. Yes he'll hit doubles in Fenway. To me he's a #2 guy. Good speed and can go to right.

[Nick]

I think I saw an article stating Red Sox #9 hitters, adjusting for pitchers in inter league games, has the best offensive stats and it's not even close. Matter of fact, our #9 spot is beating our #5 spot. Go figure.

 

Hell call up Moncada and let him bat 9th.

[moonslav59]

We must be close in age. My first game was in 1966 and I started rooting for the Red Sox in 1967.

 

I was born in '59, lived in Milwaukee until 1970 (just blocks from County Stadium). My favorite player was Tommy Harper, and the Brewers traded him to Boston about the same time my family moved to Portland, ME.

 

I switched to being a Sox fan then.

[a700hitter]

I was born in '59, lived in Milwaukee until 1970 (just blocks from County Stadium). My favorite player was Tommy Harper, and the Brewers traded him to Boston about the same time my family moved to Portland, ME.

 

I switched to being a Sox fan then.

'59 was a good year.

[moonslav59]

I think I saw an article stating Red Sox #9 hitters, adjusting for pitchers in inter league games, has the best offensive stats and it's not even close. Matter of fact, our #9 spot is beating our #5 spot. Go figure.

 

Hell call up Moncada and let him bat 9th.

 

That's because JBj should have been moved from 9 to 5 (or at least 6th) in May.

[Bellhorn04]

That's because JBj should have been moved from 9 to 5 (or at least 6th) in May.

 

By the end of May JBJ had batted 6th 7 times.

[moonslav59]

By the end of May JBJ had batted 6th 7 times.

 

He should have batted 5th or 6th 20+ times.

[Maxbialystock]

I went to my first MLB games, a Washington Senators-Cleveland Guardians double-header at Griffith Stadium in the summer of 1955 and had a blast. My wife, then unknown to me, did something similar--a double-header at Griffith Stadium--about 6 years earlier and has never watched an MLB game since. In life, timing is everything. These days she watches the Sox in very short bursts.

 

I completely disagree with the revisionist history that argues that the Sox should have batted Betts 3d all year long because the lineup with him leading off, followed by Pedroia, Bogaerts, Ortiz, usually HanRam, and then a variable cast of characters led MLB in runs scored by a big margin for about half a season. It was during that 1/2 season that Bogaerts had the big OPS that made him the right guy to bat in front of Ortiz, who had an incredible first half.

 

What's changed since then, which everyone chooses to ignore, is that Bogaerts is in a slump, which in turn makes Ortiz less productive. Meanwhile, Betts is getting hotter and hotter, including MLB player of the month. The other thing, very recently, is that Pedroia seems OK leading off, which has not been the case for over 10 years.

 

In the first half Farrell also wisely started out with JBJ batting 9th and moved him up only as he showed he was up to it. He is doing exactly the same thing right now with Benintendi. The wisdom of this, which has not been remarked upon by anyone so far on Talksox, is that the 9th hitter has often not only been a good hitter, which can be a real pain for the opposing pitcher, but also the perfect lead-in to the top of the order. It is this phenomenon, coupled with some pretty good 7th and 8th hitters, that allowed Betts to maintain his position--while leading off, mind you--as the second best rbi man in this very productive lineup.

 

One more point on Betts. He has more at bats and more runs scored than anyone else on this team, which is largely the result of his leading off for most of the season and his being our best basestealer. Bosoxmal and others would have us believe that Betts leading off was tantamount to a tragedy and at least a grave misjudgment by Farrell. And I ain't buying that thesis.

[Bellhorn04]

He should have batted 5th or 6th 20+ times.

 

The team knows what it's doing in my opinion. They're more patient and conservative than fans and they don't overreact to small samples.

[sk7326]

Lineup shift impacts are small. While you don't want to leave anything on the table - the idea we have lost anything substantial with Bradley (or Betts) usage is not supported by reality.

[Nick]

Lineup shift impacts are small. While you don't want to leave anything on the table - the idea we have lost anything substantial with Bradley (or Betts) usage is not supported by reality.

 

I would like for Xander to be our #3 hitter but I think Betts is better there. Psychologically powerful maybe, but there's nothing worse than having a guy hit a lead off homer in the 1st inning. It's a guranteed 1 run hit.

[sk7326]

I would like for Xander to be our #3 hitter but I think Betts is better there. Psychologically powerful maybe, but there's nothing worse than having a guy hit a lead off homer in the 1st inning. It's a guranteed 1 run hit.

 

It certainly paralyzed Rickey Henderson's career.

[Bellhorn04]

I would like for Xander to be our #3 hitter but I think Betts is better there. Psychologically powerful maybe, but there's nothing worse than having a guy hit a lead off homer in the 1st inning. It's a guranteed 1 run hit.

 

You also have to consider that the team that scores first wins a hefty % of the time.

[Nick]

It certainly paralyzed Rickey Henderson's career.

 

On the contrary, maybe Athletics would have won more games had he batted 3rd.....not about the player.....it's about the team

[Kimmi]

Lineup shift impacts are small. While you don't want to leave anything on the table - the idea we have lost anything substantial with Bradley (or Betts) usage is not supported by reality.

 

My hero.

[Bellhorn04]

You two are my co-heroes on this topic.

[Kimmi]

You also have to consider that the team that scores first wins a hefty % of the time.

 

As I've stated before, every move made by a manager has a counter effect elsewhere, negating the overall impact of the move.

 

A prime example of that is a pitcher walking the #8 guy in an NL game to pitch to the pitcher instead. I don't think anyone would argue with the move, and it almost always works.

 

The counter effect is that it turns the line up over and allows the top of the order to start off the next inning, rather than starting the inning off with the pitcher batting and almost assuredly an automatic out.

 

The fact of the matter remains that these changes have little impact.

[sk7326]

On the contrary, maybe Athletics would have won more games had he batted 3rd.....not about the player.....it's about the team

 

Run scoring is also a key talent - and he did that better than just about anybody. You wouldn't want to take that skill away either (to the degree that it and batting runs are skills i.e. not really)

[User Name]

I still like Betts getting the most AB's out of anyone on this team. #MookieLeads

[StephenCurry30]

I prefer Mookie lead off, but im okay with him 3rd. I hate him hitting anywhere later, and of course with bogaerts and ortiz struggling and Hanley out, we move mookie down to 4th. f***ing farrell

[oldtimer]

I prefer Mookie lead off, but im okay with him 3rd. I hate him hitting anywhere later, and of course with bogaerts and ortiz struggling and Hanley out, we move mookie down to 4th. f***ing farrell

 

Mookie at cleanup is not that bad a move. He is the hottest hitter and also is hitting with power so why is 4th out of the question? The bat we miss the most in todays lineup might just be Leon.