Sandy Leon

[User Name]

I think the original plan was to make CV the starting catcher as soon as he was ready. Swihart was rushed last year, and it was clear the bat was live, but the glove was not ready.

[Hugh2]

I think the original plan was to make CV the starting catcher as soon as he was ready. Swihart was rushed last year, and it was clear the bat was live, but the glove was not ready.

 

The second part I definitely agree with, and I don't totally by my own story on CV being rushed as I'm aware it's speculation. That's really my number 1 gripe was moving Swihart off position and moving him off of catcher so quickly.

 

Hindsight is also 20/20, if Swihart never got hurt and continued to bloom in LF as a MLB player it might not look so bad. I still think the Sox should have left him behind the dish but I can't use the fact that he got injured in LF in hindsight.

[Kimmi]

But, you know, even weak hitters look like stars when their on a hot streak.

 

As far as I know, Leon has never had a sustained stretch of good offense, so with me, I'm with holding judgment.

 

I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade, but a 45 PA sample size is really rather tiny.

 

No doubt Moon. I'm not trying to say that he's going to be the next Buster Posey or anything like that. I'm all about relevant sample sizes.

 

I was just pointing out that he is making solid contact. His line drive rate is at 30.3%, up from 18.8% last year, and his hard hit % is 33.3%, up from 14.1% last year.

[a700hitter]

No doubt Moon. I'm not trying to say that he's going to be the next Buster Posey or anything like that. I'm all about relevant sample sizes..

Except when it comes to David Price.

[Kimmi]

I don't think the choice is always about who is better or who the manager likes more. It's about roster construction and depth. If we kept Vazquez on the 25 man roster, we'd have lost Hanigan on the depth chart. You may not value that all that much, and it's hard to argue that point based on Hanigan's 2016 performance, but Hanigan doesn't have to be Wright's caddy-catcher. Leon did fine with Wright, so put Hanigan in against lefty starters only.

 

I'm as big a Vazquez fan as anyone, and I am actually okay with his current batting line so long as the rest of the offense continues to hit. However, it would not make much sense to me to lose either Hanigan or Leon right now, and lose that depth, when Vazquez can be sent to the minors.

 

It would be one thing if Vazquez were far outplaying the other two, but right now, he is not. His defense is not even at the level that it was in 2015. I think Vaz will benefit from some time in AAA, but aside from that, this is the move that is best for the team for other reasons.

[Kimmi]

I thought the Sox rushed CV back this year and panicked by giving up on BS too quickly.

 

First off, even though he's been above average Vasquez defense has been nowhere near the elite level of play it was last year. This makes his lack of bat stand out much much more. The Sox gave up on Swihart way too soon, and even if you could justify a move down to AAA they should have let him continue develop behind the plate.

 

He might not be injured right now if that was the case.

 

I highly doubt Sandy Leon is a long term solution for a starter, but he's more than capable on the defensive side and I have zero problem riding the hot hand with the bat right now. This team is in a funk and could use that.

 

My sentiments exactly.

 

My preference has always been Vazquez over Swihart at catcher, but IMO, that move was done under a 'sense of urgency', aka 'panic'.

[User Name]

Based on what?

[Kimmi]

Based on what?

 

Based on the FO/Farrell making it known that they were operating under a sense of urgency and the fact that Swihart was sent down after six games.

[User Name]

Vasquez was the starting catcher, he gets injured. Swihart gets pressed into duty and struggles defensively. Vasquez comes back from surgery, and Swihart is clearly not ready defensively at the most important position in the diamond. What were they supposed to do?

[Kimmi]

Vasquez was the starting catcher, he gets injured. Swihart gets pressed into duty and struggles defensively. Vasquez comes back from surgery, and Swihart is clearly not ready defensively at the most important position in the diamond. What were they supposed to do?

 

Give Swihart more than 6 games? Not rush Vazquez back? Have some patience?

 

The Sox lost a couple of games, one in which Swihart looked pretty bad, and the FO made a rash decision. JMO

[User Name]

Exactly the point. As I told Hugh before, they're just your opinions. I just don't see it. From all indications, having Vasquez be the primary catcher was the plan all along. Then again, that's just my opinion.

[jacksonianmarch]

Vasquez makes your pitching staff better. He is a true defensive wizard and seems to have big brass balls behind the dish when he manages his pitchers. He was easy to hide when the entire team was hitting. He is less so now with a few guys slumping.

[Hugh2]

Vasquez makes your pitching staff better. He is a true defensive wizard and seems to have big brass balls behind the dish when he manages his pitchers. He was easy to hide when the entire team was hitting. He is less so now with a few guys slumping.

 

I generally agree with that statement but it still is true that compared to the other catchers in the league his pitch framing skills aren't nearly as elite as they were last year.

[illinoisredsox]

I generally agree with that statement but it still is true that compared to the other catchers in the league his pitch framing skills aren't nearly as elite as they were last year.

 

Yeah, but is that because he has somehow lost those skills or because Sox pitchers are missing so badly that it makes them moot.

 

Seems to me pitch framing mostly comes into play when a pitch is just outside the zone and thus the catcher's mitt must move very little to "frame" the pitch. Sox pitchers appear to miss spots by several inches, which doesn't lend itself well to framing.

[Hugh2]

Yeah, but is that because he has somehow lost those skills or because Sox pitchers are missing so badly that it makes them moot.

 

Seems to me pitch framing mostly comes into play when a pitch is just outside the zone and thus the catcher's mitt must move very little to "frame" the pitch. Sox pitchers appear to miss spots by several inches, which doesn't lend itself well to framing.

 

ummm, it's because his skills have diminished. What you're talking about would have nothing to do with his rating.

 

Now I have confidence he will improve and get back to or near what he was but he's clearly not there now.

[cp176]

ummm, it's because his skills have diminished. What you're talking about would have nothing to do with his rating.

 

Now I have confidence he will improve and get back to or near what he was but he's clearly not there now.

 

Vazquez compared to Leon behind the plate is a wash. We all expect Vazquez based on what we have been told to be one of the best defensive catchers in the game. Right now, he is good , but not at that level. It doesn't make much difference what the reasons might be for his development slowing just a bit. At this time you have a very good defensive catcher who can hit playing the position. Right now, today, he is the better player. Kind of like what happened with Shaw this spring. Leon has outplayed Vazquez and should be our catcher number one at present. With Vazquez playing most days at the AAA level, at least he will road ready if Leon stumbles. I had rather have him catching on a regular basis as opposed to being the proverbial backup catcher. it might come to that eventually but not just yet. All things being equal, it kind of looks like Vazquez might have to hit just a little bit in order to get his job back.

[moonslav59]

No doubt Moon. I'm not trying to say that he's going to be the next Buster Posey or anything like that. I'm all about relevant sample sizes.

 

I was just pointing out that he is making solid contact. His line drive rate is at 30.3%, up from 18.8% last year, and his hard hit % is 33.3%, up from 14.1% last year.

 

I didn't mean to imply you didn't understand what a hot streak looks like, and for all we know, that is probably what we're seeing with Leon right now- not some new-found skill set or approach.

 

I'm all for riding the hot bat as long as it takes us. Remember, Middy took it for over a half season.

 

I'm hoping Shaw isn't hitting a wall either.

 

I tend to not get too hyped over streaks like Leon's, and Shaw's earlier, and Holt's last April, but I also don't get down on guys like JBJ- even with a much larger sample size than Shaw, Holt and Leon as much either

[moonslav59]

Give Swihart more than 6 games? Not rush Vazquez back? Have some patience?

 

The Sox lost a couple of games, one in which Swihart looked pretty bad, and the FO made a rash decision. JMO

 

It wasn't over 6 games. It was what they've seen over years of watching Swihart through the system, including his time with the big club last year, in ST'ing and those 6 games.

[mvp 78]

It wasn't over 6 games. It was what they've seen over years of watching Swihart through the system, including his time with the big club last year, in ST'ing and those 6 games.

 

This.

[Jack Flap]

It wasn't over 6 games. It was what they've seen over years of watching Swihart through the system, including his time with the big club last year, in ST'ing and those 6 games.

 

If this is the case, and they've felt for a while that Swihart wouldn't/shouldn't be catching long-term (if that's what you're saying), then it would have been wise to trade him when his value was stratospheric. He could have been a primary piece in a trade for a starting pitcher last winter, and Hanigan/Leon could have managed behind the plate for a month or two until Vazquez was ready...but instead they put Swihart out there for a handful of games, demoted him, and converted him into a left fielder of questionable offensive value, where he promptly got hurt running into a wall. Maybe the team's opinion of Swihart wasn't changed by 6 games, but this smacks of poor planning nonetheless.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Jack Flap

[mvp 78]

They didn't trade him because of Vazquez's health. Once Vazquez was healthy, they handed the keys over and moved Blake to LF.

[moonslav59]

It wasn't over 6 games. It was what they've seen over years of watching Swihart through the system, including his time with the big club last year, in ST'ing and those 6 games.

 

If this is the case, and they've felt for a while that Swihart wouldn't/shouldn't be catching long-term (if that's what you're saying), then it would have been wise to trade him when his value was stratospheric. He could have been a primary piece in a trade for a starting pitcher last winter, and Hanigan/Leon could have managed behind the plate for a month or two until Vazquez was ready...but instead they put Swihart out there for a handful of games, demoted him, and converted him into a left fielder of questionable offensive value, where he promptly got hurt running into a wall. Maybe the team's opinion of Swihart wasn't changed by 6 games, but this smacks of poor planning nonetheless.

 

Preaching to the choir. I've been suggesting trade packages led by Swihart, not because I don't value him, but because his value to us as a LF'er (3B/1b whatever) and eventual part-time/back-up catcher is less than his value to another team willing to look beyond his current defensive shortcomings as a catcher and plug him right in there (once he's off the DL).

 

If you look aat the state of catching in MLB today, not only do some good teams have weak defensive catchers, they also lack in ofense. At least Swihart should give them one part now with hopes the defensive part comes along quickly.

 

Almsot all my winter trade suggestions involved some combination of Swihart, Devers, Margot, Guerra, Owens and Johnson for an ace or possible soon to be ace. (Note: that was before some of these guys saw their stock decline a bit.)

[Examiner]

Plus, Hanigan has looked lost at the plate.

 

He was a solid hitter with the Reds, hasn't been the same since he left Cincy.

[Kimmi]

Exactly the point. As I told Hugh before, they're just your opinions. I just don't see it. From all indications, having Vasquez be the primary catcher was the plan all along. Then again, that's just my opinion.

 

Neither one of us ever said otherwise. That said, they are not opinions that are completely without merit.

[Kimmi]

Vasquez makes your pitching staff better. He is a true defensive wizard and seems to have big brass balls behind the dish when he manages his pitchers. He was easy to hide when the entire team was hitting. He is less so now with a few guys slumping.

 

Vazquez will be back.

 

IMO, he was sent down mostly because he had options and the other two didn't. Vaz is a defensive wizard, but his defensive wizardry has been off some this year, for whatever reason. Leon is not defensive slouch. Neither is Hanigan.

[Kimmi]

I didn't mean to imply you didn't understand what a hot streak looks like, and for all we know, that is probably what we're seeing with Leon right now- not some new-found skill set or approach.

 

I'm all for riding the hot bat as long as it takes us. Remember, Middy took it for over a half season.

 

I'm hoping Shaw isn't hitting a wall either.

 

I tend to not get too hyped over streaks like Leon's, and Shaw's earlier, and Holt's last April, but I also don't get down on guys like JBJ- even with a much larger sample size than Shaw, Holt and Leon as much either

 

Nothing to argue with in this post.

[Kimmi]

It wasn't over 6 games. It was what they've seen over years of watching Swihart through the system, including his time with the big club last year, in ST'ing and those 6 games.

 

That is true enough, but I am willing to bet that if the Sox had won 5 out of the first 6 games rather than 3 of 6, Swihart would not have been sent down so quickly. Vazquez certainly could have used more time in AAA after not playing for a year.

[Hugh2]

I don't necessarily believe that they think it was the plan all along, I just thought they moved Swihart off position to quickly. It's not like he didn't have any potential behind the plate, he was a top rated catcher in all of baseball because they thought he would be an elite hitting catcher with average to better defense. I don't think anyone thought he would ever touch Vasquez defensively but I it's not like the kid completely failed at the MLB level. I thought he did pretty well all things considered, barely having any time above AA ball and brought up to the majors. People forget that defense is a progression and has a learning curve as well, just look at players like Xander Bogaerts who really grew into the short stop position.

 

He has a ton more value to this team behind the plate, and if it's not on the team then it might be on the trading block. I just thought the moved him off position way to quickly, but I get it they needed a LFer and Vasquez was ready and the staff was struggling. Perhaps they liked Swiharts bat so much that they were comfortable moving him to LF on this team. I admit, my opinion has a taste of hindsight to it, and just because Swihart has a lot more value to other teams behind the dish that doesn't mean he doesn't have a ton more value to this team in LF with Vasquez behind the plate.

 

Still, my opinion is they rushed him off the position. It is what it is I suppose, I'm just happy Leon is producing lately.

[Jasonbay44]

On Tuesday, Bogaerts didn't hide the fact that he'd prefer to stay at short but is willing to do what the team needs:

 

[Farrell] said that he felt we’re a better team with [Drew]. I guess that’s why they went out and get him. My heart is always at shortstop but they felt we’re a better team with him, so as I said, that’s why they went out and got him. And I was just feeling so good over there. But they made the decision that they have to make.....May 21, 2014

 

Yeah just ignore the fact.....all I said was this move set Xander back a few months.....but keep rewriting the history dude.

First of all, Bogaerts was moved positions because another young player (MiddleBrooks) was struggling and then got injured, which forced the team to make a move, at the time the most logical move was to move Xander to 3rd (which he played the year before) and have Drew at SS. Xander wasn't "blocked" and you said this "f***ed up Xander" which isn't true. You said this:

 

You are missing my point....John F has history of blocking young players in favor of veterans. Kids got to play while he was gone.

 

John F f***ed up Xander by insisting that we sign and play Drew. He messed with Xander's psyche.....

 

There is not a "history" of Farrell benching young players who should start over veterans, that is false and I'm not even a Farrell supporter.

 

Did you ever think that MAYBE Xander struggled because he was a 21 year old rookie in his first full season in the majors? Nah, that can't be a possibility, every player comes in the league like Albert Pujols and the only logical possible reason a rookie would struggle is John Farrell sabotaging them...

[Nick]

Yes, I'm the only person on this planet that thought the move hurt Xander. I'll pat myself on the back for original thought.....I just made up the article.