Christian Vazquez

[southpaw777]

Vazquez keeps hitting. I hope fans here dont still consider him a BU catcher. His bat was and has been better than leon. He just needed to be handed the keysby Farrell. Hopefully the clown in charge will keep Vaz as the main guy

[oldtimer]

Vazquez keeps hitting. I hope fans here dont still consider him a BU catcher. His bat was and has been better than leon. He just needed to be handed the keysby Farrell. Hopefully the clown in charge will keep Vaz as the main guy

 

He is hitting great at Fenway. Leon catches Sale, so maybe Vaz can DH. Can't be worse than Hanram or Young.

 

Last night I wondered if the BP was executing pitches put up by Vaz or they were just shaking him off? Lot of bad choices in the stretch with Barnes, Kelly and Hembre.

[moonslav59]

He is hitting great at Fenway. Leon catches Sale, so maybe Vaz can DH. Can't be worse than Hanram or Young.

 

Last night I wondered if the BP was executing pitches put up by Vaz or they were just shaking him off? Lot of bad choices in the stretch with Barnes, Kelly and Hembre.

 

Young's been doing well this month.

 

I don't think now is the time to match Vaz with Sale, but before the end of the year, I'd do it, just in case Leon gets hurt right before the playoffs. Let Vaz-Sale build to a comfort level, if we can afford to risk it.

[Dojji]

Worth noting that according to Baseball-Reference it's actually Leon with the higher WAR this year.

 

Leon:

 

oWAR 0.2

dWAR 1.0

WAR 0.8

 

CV

oWAR 0.9

dWAR -0.3

WAR 0.2

 

Now I think the biggest illusion here is CV's negative dWAR. He's far more talented defensively than that, but dWAR is an amalgamation of real production rather than talent, and CV has been struggling a bit defensively this year, So maybe we shouldn't be so quick to "give the keys" to the less valuable catcher just because the lion's share of his current value is offensive?

[moonslav59]

I was trying to pump the breaks big time with Leon last year. Some people just can't seem to see more than the present. I got no problem riding hot hands, and Leon is fine as a backup.

 

I was certain Leon would not even come close to repeating 2016, but what many failed to realize was that the rest of last year's catcher offense was so putrid, that it was hard to imagine Vaz and Leon not improving on those PAs enough to more than offset the expected decline in Leon's 2016 PAs.

 

I projected as light increase in catcher OPS this year based on expecting a vast imporvement on Hanigan, Holaday and Vaz's 2016 numbers.

 

2016 Catcher OPS: .665

.840 (271 PAs) Leon

.584 (169) Vaz

.449 (111) Hanigan

.454 (34) Holaday

.669 (23) Swihart

 

As you can see, Leon's PAs only accounted for under 44% of the team's catcher OPS. As for my projections, I expected Leon to be very close to where he is now, and for Vaz to be between .650 and .700 not sub .600.

 

It's also been great that we've only needed 2 catcher this year.

 

2017 Catcher OPS: .704 in 473 PAs

 

.725 Vaz (250 PAs)

.680 Leon (223 PAs)

 

Our catchers currently rank T16th in catcher WAR at 1.2 with StL

6th in catcher D (+11.4).

17th in catcher ) (-16.3)

[moonslav59]

Worth noting that according to Baseball-Reference it's actually Leon with the higher WAR this year.

 

Leon:

 

oWAR 0.2

dWAR 1.0

WAR 0.8

 

CV

oWAR 0.9

dWAR -0.3

WAR 0.2

 

Now I think the biggest illusion here is CV's negative dWAR. He's far more talented defensively than that, but dWAR is an amalgamation of real production rather than talent, and CV has been struggling a bit defensively this year, So maybe we shouldn't be so quick to "give the keys" to the less valuable catcher just because the lion's share of his current value is offensive?

 

Fangraphs has it much differently:

 

0.9 Vaz

0.3 Leon

 

Defense

6.5 Leon

4.9 Vaz

 

Offense

-4.8 Vaz

-11.5 Leon

[Dojji]

I was certain Leon would not even come close to repeating 2016, but what many failed to realize was that the rest of last year's catcher offense was so putrid, that it was hard to imagine Vaz and Leon not improving on those PAs enough to more than offset the expected decline in Leon's 2016 PAs.

 

I projected as light increase in catcher OPS this year based on expecting a vast imporvement on Hanigan, Holaday and Vaz's 2016 numbers.

 

2016 Catcher OPS: .665

.840 (271 PAs) Leon

.584 (169) Vaz

.449 (111) Hanigan

.454 (34) Holaday

.669 (23) Swihart

 

As you can see, Leon's PAs only accounted for under 44% of the team's catcher OPS. As for my projections, I expected Leon to be very close to where he is now, and for Vaz to be between .650 and .700 not sub .600.

 

It's also been great that we've only needed 2 catcher this year.

 

2017 Catcher OPS: .704 in 473 PAs

 

.725 Vaz (250 PAs)

.680 Leon (223 PAs)

 

Our catchers currently rank T16th in catcher WAR at 1.2 with StL

6th in catcher D (+11.4).

17th in catcher ) (-16.3)

 

I agree, and I'm actually more or less content with the situation we find ourselves in with our backstops. They can hit a little, and both of them are heavily focused on their defense, which is exactly what you want if you can't have a do-everything guy.

 

Catcher is not a problem for the Red Sox right now.

[Dojji]

Fangraphs has it much differently:

 

0.9 Vaz

0.3 Leon

 

Defense

6.5 Leon

4.9 Vaz

 

Offense

-4.8 Vaz

-11.5 Leon

 

Sounds like it averages out. In a position like catcher I wouldn't necessarily break the tie by favoring offense however. Leon is fine. He's a below average starter or a very good backup. And we know he has the capacity to play better than he is right now offensively if he can put a few good weeks together.

[moonslav59]

He is hitting great at Fenway. Leon catches Sale, so maybe Vaz can DH. Can't be worse than Hanram or Young.

 

Last night I wondered if the BP was executing pitches put up by Vaz or they were just shaking him off? Lot of bad choices in the stretch with Barnes, Kelly and Hembre.

 

Vaz's home-away splits are massive. I'm not sure I've ever seen splits so wide:

 

.984 Home (Best on the Sox -out of anyone with 65+ PAs)

 

.482 Away (Worst on the Sox -out of anyone with 10+ PAs)

 

A 502 point split differential might be nearing a record among players with 100+ PAs home and away.

 

[moonslav59]

Sounds like it averages out. In a position like catcher I wouldn't necessarily break the tie by favoring offense however. Leon is fine. He's a below average starter or a very good backup. And we know he has the capacity to play better than he is right now offensively if he can put a few good weeks together.

 

That's how I view it as well. I do think Vaz is very close on D with Leon. I do not think Vaz is this good offensively. He's likely to "come down to earth" at some point. They both are strong defensively and are .650 to .700 type hitters.

[Hugh2]

Splits are a great tool, and we all love to use them (and with good reason) but I think we are in agreement that they must be taken with a grain of salt.

 

Naturally, a split such as home/away is going to make a sample size significantly smaller, and when we're talking about a guy splitting time at a position the sample is a bit smaller, to begin with.

 

I think we would be correct to come to the conclusion that Vasquez is a better hitter at Fenway and it is reasonable to expect that going forward. But it would be logical to assume the difference between his home and away line should shrink.

[moonslav59]

Splits are a great tool, and we all love to use them (and with good reason) but I think we are in agreement that they must be taken with a grain of salt.

 

Naturally, a split such as home/away is going to make a sample size significantly smaller, and when we're talking about a guy splitting time at a position the sample is a bit smaller, to begin with.

 

I think we would be correct to come to the conclusion that Vasquez is a better hitter at Fenway and it is reasonable to expect that going forward. But it would be logical to assume the difference between his home and away line should shrink.

 

Agreed, but a 500 point differential with both sample sizes being over 100 is shocking!

 

His career Home-Away splits, greatly affected by this year, show this:

 

Home: .773 (311 PAs)

 

Away: .535 (324 PAs)

 

That's basically just one season's worth of a sample size spread over 3 seasons sandwiched around a season lost to injury.

 

You're right, we shouldn't read too much into these numbers, but they do bear watching closely.

[cp176]

It is good to see Vazquez hitting for sure but I don't understsand why anyone would want to break up the nice little rotation that this tandem has going right now. They are almost the same guy where it counts - behind the plate. It is a tough job being a catcher. Sharing the job as they have been doing I think tends to keep them both healthy and hungry. They are both good starting catchers and they both serve as good backups to each other.

[Kimmi]

I agree, and I'm actually more or less content with the situation we find ourselves in with our backstops. They can hit a little, and both of them are heavily focused on their defense, which is exactly what you want if you can't have a do-everything guy.

 

Catcher is not a problem for the Red Sox right now.

 

That is pretty much it in a nutshell. Leave the catching tandem alone.

[Behindenemylines]

That is pretty much it in a nutshell. Leave the catching tandem alone.

 

I Agee. Vazquez is starting to hit more consistently. I believe it is because he splits time with Leon and is fresh for this time of the year. If he caught more games I think he would run out of gas and you wouldn't see the bat that we saw in August. The walk off hr against Cleveland was outstanding. The catching position is the least of the Sox problems. Moving forward I wouldn't mess with the catching position.

[Kimmi]

I Agee. Vazquez is starting to hit more consistently. I believe it is because he splits time with Leon and is fresh for this time of the year. If he caught more games I think he would run out of gas and you wouldn't see the bat that we saw in August. The walk off hr against Cleveland was outstanding. The catching position is the least of the Sox problems. Moving forward I wouldn't mess with the catching position.

 

Good point about both catchers being able to stay somewhat fresh by not being a 'full time' starter. I agree that they are the least of our worries.

 

On a related note, pitch framing stats to date, courtesy of StatCorner:

 

Vazquez - Ranks 7th among all catchers with 6.3 runs above average

 

Leon - Ranks 12th among all catchers with 3.5 runs above average

 

Our catchers have been worth roughly 1 WIN in terms of pitch framing.

[southpaw777]

"He's likely to "come down to earth" at some poinT" -Moon

Come down to earth? Hes been pretty consistent. His offensive game is getting better every year as long as Farrell gives him the bulk of the load. Do I believe hes a 280 hitter? Yes, ive said it for a coulle years now. Coming back to earth was leon. Vaz can hang where hes at 280 320 400. I think those numbers were what I thought he was capable of. His bat is better than most people still believe apparently...

Edited September 15, 2017 by southpaw777

[cp176]

"He's likely to "come down to earth" at some poinT" -Moon

Come down to earth? Hes been pretty consistent. His offensive game is getting better every year as long as Farrell gives him the bulk of the load. Do I believe hes a 280 hitter? Yes, ive said it for a coulle years now. Coming back to earth was leon. Vaz can hang where hes at 280 320 400. I think those numbers were what I thought he was capable of. His bat is better than most believe still apparently...

 

I still love the fact that we have two very capable catchers but there is not much question in my mind that Vazquez is the better of the two. There is nothing that I don't like about him.

[moonslav59]

"He's likely to "come down to earth" at some poinT" -Moon

Come down to earth? Hes been pretty consistent. His offensive game is getting better every year as long as Farrell gives him the bulk of the load. Do I believe hes a 280 hitter? Yes, ive said it for a coulle years now. Coming back to earth was leon. Vaz can hang where hes at 280 320 400. I think those numbers were what I thought he was capable of. His bat is better than most people still believe apparently...

 

I'm a huge Vaz fan and always have been.

 

I wanted to trade Swihart away long ago.

 

I agree on him being able to hit .280, and feel his power may improve over time.

 

However, .280 is not .336, which is Vaz's 2nd half BA. That's what I meant by "coming back to earth".

 

Now, .280 can mnean hitting .336 some stretches and .206 in others. I'm fine with that, too. Just give me .280/.330/.420/.750 every year and I'll be super happy.

 

BTW, I love to see him hitting righties (.746) better than before. I can see us using Leon as just one pitcher's caddie next year and allowing Vaz to catch 4 out of 5 starts.

 

[mvp 78]

If CV can hit .250, that's more valuable than Swihart hitting .300 considering the vast difference in their defensive capabilities.

[a700hitter]

If CV can hit .250, that's more valuable than Swihart hitting .300 considering the vast difference in their defensive capabilities.

We should have traded Swihart once it became obvious that we were going to move ahead with the superior defensive player. He still had good trade value. Now, he is just a busted asset.

[mvp 78]

We should have traded Swihart once it became obvious that we were going to move ahead with the superior defensive player. He still had good trade value. Now, he is just a busted asset.

 

Hey let's move him to LF to boost that trade value a bit (even though his highest value comes at C). What could go wrong?

[Bellhorn04]

If there was a right time to trade Swihart it was probably when he was still just an untested prospect. Aside from a good year with Portland in 2014, his offensive numbers at all levels have been mediocre to bad, and his defensive skills at catcher have always been a work in progress.

[mvp 78]

If there was a right time to trade Swihart it was probably when he was still just an untested prospect. Aside from a good year with Portland in 2014, his offensive numbers at all levels have been mediocre to bad, and his defensive skills at catcher have always been a work in progress.

 

???

 

He was a 1.5 WAR player in half a season in 2015.

[Bellhorn04]

???

 

He was a 1.5 WAR player in half a season in 2015.

 

Depends who you ask. His bWAR was only 0.4, which seems more reasonable. Some of those odd fielding results for Fenway's left field perhaps?

[moonslav59]

If CV can hit .250, that's more valuable than Swihart hitting .300 considering the vast difference in their defensive capabilities.

 

Totally agree. Maybe even .220 would beat Swi's .300.

[moonslav59]

We should have traded Swihart once it became obvious that we were going to move ahead with the superior defensive player. He still had good trade value. Now, he is just a busted asset.

 

Yes, his highest value was as a projectable catcher. Now, he's pretty much not that.

[Kimmi]

"He's likely to "come down to earth" at some poinT" -Moon

Come down to earth? Hes been pretty consistent. His offensive game is getting better every year as long as Farrell gives him the bulk of the load. Do I believe hes a 280 hitter? Yes, ive said it for a coulle years now. Coming back to earth was leon. Vaz can hang where hes at 280 320 400. I think those numbers were what I thought he was capable of. His bat is better than most people still believe apparently...

 

Credit to you southpaw, you have been on the Vaz bandwagon since before the season started. Good call.

[southpaw777]

Credit to you southpaw, you have been on the Vaz bandwagon since before the season started. Good call.

 

Thanks kimmi 😊

When i saw him in AA the year they told him to pay more attention to offense, his BB went up and the Ks went down. Took more pitches and usually made solid contact. Add in the passion hes has for the game and position and who he works with in the off season (Jose Molina) and i saw a great all around catcher in the making. Of course his was just an opinion, but he had that “IT” factor that made him stand out...to me anyway.

So happy to see him back to full speed this year and able to help the Sox on BOTH sides of the game. I still believe hes a 280 320 400 hitter moving forward.

Looks like were about to clinch the division

GO SOX!!!

[SoxHop]

Thanks kimmi

When i saw him in AA the year they told him to pay more attention to offense, his BB went up and the Ks went down. Took more pitches and usually made solid contact. Add in the passion hes has for the game and position and who he works with in the off season (Jose Molina) and i saw a great all around catcher in the making. Of course his was just an opinion, but he had that “IT” factor that made him stand out...to me anyway.

So happy to see him back to full speed this year and able to help the Sox on BOTH sides of the game. I still believe hes a 280 320 400 hitter moving forward.

Looks like were about to clinch the division

GO SOX!!!

 

Remy has been saying all year he saw something in Vaz's hitting. Especially the way he went the other way with the ball.

 

Good call...