Sox Pitching Staff Discussion

[illinoisredsox]

I still think that Che-Hsuan Lin had a shot to establish himself on someone's bench as a defense guy, but it wound up that no one really had a reason to let him in and give him that shot. It happens that way some times where a guy has the talent but just never gets a chance to break in (see also: Dan Butler)

 

I'm a sucker for the athletic speedy defensive CF types, guys like Joey Gathright, Jarrod Dyson, and Lin. I've seen them pay off enough in late innings to appreciate them in action. Most folks want an outfielder to be a guy who hits a ton though, so it's not hard to see why Lin couldn't break in. A lot of my guys who don't make it fit into that category -- guys that COULD have been useful, but really never got the chance to show one way or the other..

 

Problem is those type of guys are 20th century. With 12 (and sometimes 13) man pitching staffs, teams can't afford to stash a good field/weak bat type on the bench. In the days of 10-11 man staffs, they could.

[Slasher9]

edited....wrong thread.

[moonslav59]

I'm not trying to say that Sale isn't good, but it's interesting that since the trade deadline

Sale: 21.2 IP, 4.15 ERA

E-Rod: 21.2 IP, 2.08 ERA

Pomeranz: 19 IP, 2.37 ERA

 

One of these other 2 pitchers would probably have been gone in a trade for Sale.

 

My idea was to not trade for Pomeranz, so we'd have had Espi to include in the package for Sale (or Quintana) instead of ERod.

[FredLynn]

I think it has a lot to do with E-Rod and Pomeranz pitching well.

 

Since the All Star Break Pomeranz has an ERA of 3.70 and ERod an ERA of an outstanding 2.67. The pitching since the ASB is THIRD in the league. Compare that to what Kelly and Buchholz did before the ASB and its easy to see why the team is now winning. Bannister is in the dugout, but the pitchers still have to execute.

[moonslav59]

Since the All Star Break Pomeranz has an ERA of 3.70 and ERod an ERA of an outstanding 2.67. The pitching since the ASB is THIRD in the league. Compare that to what Kelly and Buchholz did before the ASB and its easy to see why the team is now winning. Bannister is in the dugout, but the pitchers still have to execute.

 

Just about a week ago, people were worried about Pom and Erod. Some were looking like they were giving up on the Sox.

 

What a difference a week makes.

 

Remember, "a pitcher is only as good as his last outing". (I've never been a believer in this, but there does seem to be some truth to it.)

[Wade Boggs]

My idea was to not trade for Pomeranz, so we'd have had Espi to include in the package for Sale (or Quintana) instead of ERod.

 

Now the best pitching prospect in the system would be Groome , who will pitch in the GCL next week. I think you could include Espinoza in part of a deal, but he could not be the center piece of it. The White Sox wanted Beni or Moncada as a must. If not, the deal isn't going to happen. Jmo

 

I can see the Yankees blowing all or most of their prospects on Sale. I just don't see them having any young stars on the roster right now, maybe Judge , to even get a deal done.

[mvp 78]

Wade, your facts don't matter here.

[moonslav59]

Now the best pitching prospect in the system would be Groome , who will pitch in the GCL next week. I think you could include Espinoza in part of a deal, but he could not be the center piece of it. The White Sox wanted Beni or Moncada as a must. If not, the deal isn't going to happen. Jmo

 

I can see the Yankees blowing all or most of their prospects on Sale. I just don't see them having any young stars on the roster right now, maybe Judge , to even get a deal done.

 

 

I probably would have held my nose and traded Beni, Espi and maybe Johnson or Owens for Quintana, but would end up taking Sale.

 

I'm not sure that gets it done.

 

I'd have first tried Espi or Beni plus Swihart, Devers and Johnson/Owens.

 

Now that Espy is gone, I'd be very hesitant to trade ERod or Groome. I'm less likely to want to construct a big package for an ace, due to the cumulative affect of eating away at the farm.

Edited August 19, 2016 by moonslav59

[Dojji]

These sorts of trades -- the ones that build up your roster immediately, like the Pomeranz deal, like the Kimbrel deal -- are legitimate uses of farm assets. Not every talent we draft has to debut for this team -- in fact that's kind of impossible.

 

Let's say I'm right and Mauricio Dubon is destined for a Starting SS/leadoff hitter gig. Can we give it to him? No, the best we can do is groom him to succeed Brock Holt and we already have Marco Hernandez, who I'm convinced is going to be a very nice backup infielder, waiting in the wings for when Holt moves on. He's excess baggage unless, God forbed, Bogaerts gets seriously hurt.

 

Now let's say another team likes his numbers, sends a scout, likes that too, and wants Dubon to fill a hole they have at SS with an eye towards developing his potential as a top of the order hitter. Of course in that situation you name a reasonable price for Dubon, who's excess talent for us at the position, and see what you can get in the offer. You don't dither around because trading him for a big league player technically weakens our farm. It's always a legitimate use of the talent you have on a farm, which may or may not be a match for what your big league roster needs at the moment, to improve said roster. Especially when you're a big market and can also plug holes in other ways.

[Slasher9]

all seems 100% reasonable doji. i think the problem many of us had with the Espi trade was that he was the first pitcher we have had in our system in a long long time with such a high ceiling. he wasnt perceived as a future backup infielder.

[Dojji]

That's true, but even though the scale is bigger, I don't think the logic changes. The simple fact of the matter is with the playoffs within reach, and a pitcher (Groome) we could add to our talent pool immediately to make up the gap, we needed a Drew Pomeranz more than we needed an Anderson Espinosa right now.

[S5Dewey]

That's true, but even though the scale is bigger, I don't think the logic changes. The simple fact of the matter is with the playoffs within reach, and a pitcher (Groome) we could add to our talent pool immediately to make up the gap, we needed a Drew Pomeranz more than we needed an Anderson Espinosa right now.

 

I agree with what you say, were the team operating in a vacuum. IMO this trade was done for the same bad reason Sandoval was picked up - to "prove" that the Sox want to win NOW. There is a fan base in Boston who's clamoring for some success from this team and after two big signings the FO can't afford to allow the team to fall out of contention.

I've been preaching for some time that for the Sox FO it's all about money and the money ultimately comes from the fans. After two dismal seasons the FO needs to keep us fans believing that the team has a chance in the playoffs. If that means taking a chance that a certain starting pitcher won't be as good as he looks now it's a risk they're willing to take to keep the fannies in the seats and the $9 beers flowing.

[mvp 78]

They brought in Sandoval because they thought had no one in the pipeline that could play 3b in MLB in the near future. The bad decision there was bringing on Hanley and Panda. They should have just grabbed one of those guys and threw them at 3b. I don't think it was a "win now" move. It was a "we don't have anyone to play there" move.

[Bellhorn04]

I agree with what you say, were the team operating in a vacuum. IMO this trade was done for the same bad reason Sandoval was picked up - to "prove" that the Sox want to win NOW. There is a fan base in Boston who's clamoring for some success from this team and after two big signings the FO can't afford to allow the team to fall out of contention.

I've been preaching for some time that for the Sox FO it's all about money and the money ultimately comes from the fans. After two dismal seasons the FO needs to keep us fans believing that the team has a chance in the playoffs. If that means taking a chance that a certain starting pitcher won't be as good as he looks now it's a risk they're willing to take to keep the fannies in the seats and the $9 beers flowing.

 

Well, that's one way to look at it.

 

I can just imagine what the talk would be right now if another team traded for Pomeranz (which most certainly would have happened) and we did nothing to improve our rotation, which everyone agreed needed to be improved.

[southpaw777]

I remember mentioning that maybe a move to the pen will help Buch...not over thinking things mostly, which is what I think gets him in trouble...hes pitching from the stretch now and looks like hes in a good mental state from how hes been talking. Even mentioned how the pen has made him prepare, think, and work differently...

Hey, hes looked good since being inserted back into the rotation...SSs of course, but still...he looks better.

[Slasher9]

Well, that's one way to look at it.

 

I can just imagine what the talk would be right now if another team traded for Pomeranz (which most certainly would have happened) and we did nothing to improve our rotation, which everyone agreed needed to be improved.

 

fair point HFX...

[S5Dewey]

They brought in Sandoval because they thought had no one in the pipeline that could play 3b in MLB in the near future. The bad decision there was bringing on Hanley and Panda. They should have just grabbed one of those guys and threw them at 3b. I don't think it was a "win now" move. It was a "we don't have anyone to play there" move.

 

I agree with you.. .to a point. My issue is that they jumped to sign "the flavor of the week" regardless of the cost. Sandoval never had regular season numbers to justify the money he's making.

The moral to the Sandoval signing is to NEVER sign someone based on one good WS or based on post-season play. Sign the guy who will get you there. Which is exactly why I preferred the Price signing to the Sandoval signing. Price doesn't have great playoff numbers but he'll at least get you there. And I can promise you that if you don't make the playoffs you won't win the WS.

[S5Dewey]

Well, that's one way to look at it.

Was I just accused of being cynical? Guilty as charged, I guess. LOL

[Bellhorn04]

I agree with you.. .to a point. My issue is that they jumped to sign "the flavor of the week" regardless of the cost. Sandoval never had regular season numbers to justify the money he's making.

The moral to the Sandoval signing is to NEVER sign someone based on one good WS or based on post-season play. Sign the guy who will get you there. Which is exactly why I preferred the Price signing to the Sandoval signing. Price doesn't have great playoff numbers but he'll at least get you there. And I can promise you that if you don't make the playoffs you won't win the WS.

 

Sandoval was a bad signing, obviously, but he had the best regular-season numbers of any third baseman that was available that offseason.

[Slasher9]

Sandoval was a bad signing, obviously, but he had the best regular-season numbers of any third baseman that was available that offseason.

 

yes, the big FA 3rd basemen were panda and headley. many wanted headley. i was happy with the panda signing. i thought he was going to be a star in boston. a fan favorite with thousands of kids wearing panda hats to games nightly.....that window is just about shut.

[sk7326]

Sandoval was a bad signing, obviously, but he had the best regular-season numbers of any third baseman that was available that offseason.

 

Also the youngest of the top UFAs.

[mvp 78]

I agree with you.. .to a point. My issue is that they jumped to sign "the flavor of the week" regardless of the cost. Sandoval never had regular season numbers to justify the money he's making.

The moral to the Sandoval signing is to NEVER sign someone based on one good WS or based on post-season play. Sign the guy who will get you there. Which is exactly why I preferred the Price signing to the Sandoval signing. Price doesn't have great playoff numbers but he'll at least get you there. And I can promise you that if you don't make the playoffs you won't win the WS.

 

1. No one performs well enough to justify the money they make.

 

2. He was a 3 win player on average while with the Giants. http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=5409&position=3B If you're a consistent 3 win guy, you get Pablo's contract.

[Nick]

Sox relief pitching

 

We are paying close to $35M for this bunch. Getting nothing out of Koji at $9M per year stings. Craig Kimbrel is at $12.5M and he has control issues. That is the first thing I look for, BB/game. Hopefully it's about the knee and not start of a trend. I am so sick of hearing 'tired arm' for Tazawa ($3.#M). Hell put him on DL. Or don't use him. Don't let him get hammered then proclaim he's overworked. Then you have $2.6M in Joe Kelly. He throws the straightest fast ball of anyone. It comes in fast, it exits fast. Just don't know what to make of him. Abad has another year of team control, if we want him. Luckily we don't have a second year of control, or third.

 

How's Carson Smith doing on his rehab?

[mvp 78]

Granted, he sucks and most people questioned the move when it was made. Was his career light years better in SF? Yup. Should the Sox have expected him to completely flat line when he came to Boston? Nope.

[sk7326]

Uehara returning would allow a lot of this stuff to fall into place. Also will be interesting is Brandon Workman is in a position to be a September call-up.

[Slasher9]

Granted, he sucks and most people questioned the move when it was made. Was his career light years better in SF? Yup. Should the Sox have expected him to completely flat line when he came to Boston? Nope.

 

i thought he was going to do better in boston than his numbers in SF.

[sk7326]

Granted, he sucks and most people questioned the move when it was made. Was his career light years better in SF? Yup. Should the Sox have expected him to completely flat line when he came to Boston? Nope.

 

This - also with his age and his spray charts - there was a reasonable (i.e. not one you had to agree with, but one which was defensible without sounding crazy) basis for optimism.

[sk7326]

i thought he was going to do better in boston than his numbers in SF.

 

There was a fair basis for it - he made tons of contact, he had a spray chart and inside out swing which made it look like he could do Boggs-ish things with the Monstah. He also was young enough that you were buying less decline than your average premium FA.

 

Obviously none of this worked - but anybody who said the Sox should have seen this level of disaster coming are being disingenuous.

[mvp 78]

i thought he was going to do better in boston than his numbers in SF.

 

I thought he'd be an adequate 3b defensively.

 

I thought at worst he'd be a 1 win player.

 

I still wouldn't have signed him, but that's in the past now. The key is getting his weight down and trying to revive anything out of his career. Unfortunately, I think he's toast in this town. Should probably get him to lose weight and try to trade him in the offseason and pay 80% of his salary.

[moonslav59]

Sandoval was a bad signing, obviously, but he had the best regular-season numbers of any third baseman that was available that offseason.

 

He also had the best postseason numbers of any available 3Bman and perhaps any 3Bman in the history of MLB.

 

I hated the deal, but the philosophy was sound:

 

Load up on offense in 2015.

 

Load up on pitching in 2016, when the FA market was bursting with top quality talent.