David Price

[mvp 78]

I care.

[Bellhorn04]

Glad to see some things don't change here haha

 

Theo exits- "he was a baboons ass he deserves no credit for those WS titles!"

 

Cherington exits- "he was a baboons ass, Theo deserves credit for the '13 WS title"

 

Lol I have missed this place more than I thought. Where the hell is Fred btw?

 

Fred, or a toned-down version of him, can now be found on the Boston.com forum. As can Pumpsie Green.

[Orange Juiced]

Ben bears much of the blame for 2015's rotation. He either failed to build a quality rotation, or he failed to convince Henry to pay for a quality rotation. The rotation took a big hit from losing both of its starting catchers early, but it was not a competitive group. The only thing more insane than spending 10 million on Masterson without seeing him pitch.... is to spend 10 million on Masterson after seeing him pitch.

 

After Ben left the Red Sox he basically said that his struggle was that he rushed too many decisions. Many of the Red Sox's biggest mistakes were clumped together. I see many many good things that he did for the Red Sox, but the Lester/Lackey trades were complete disasters.

 

If the pitchers in last year's rotation had simply pitched up to their career norms, they'd have been fine. Until last year with the Sox, here were these guys' career numbers:

 

Miley: 3.79 era, 103 era+

Porcello: 4.20 era, 97 era+

Kelly: 3.41 era, 112 era+

Buchholz: 3.92 era, 109 era+

Masterson: 4.24 era, 95 era+

 

That group would have been solid overall, if they had just pitched to their career averages. Not asking for any of them to do anything special. Just be....who themselves.

 

Well, they weren't. They were all awful except Clay, who was great until he got hurt. Well, maybe that IS who Clay is I guess. But really, this crew should have provided the Sox with a plenty good enough rotation. But they sucked. Ben wasn't asking too much of them, really. He wasn't asking any of them to be better than their career averages. But they failed.

[mvp 78]

Fred, or a toned-down version of him, can now be found on the Boston.com forum. As can Pumpsie Green.

 

That place is a nightmare.

[Bellhorn04]

If the pitchers in last year's rotation had simply pitched up to their career norms, they'd have been fine. Until last year with the Sox, here were these guys' career numbers:

 

Miley: 3.79 era, 103 era+

Porcello: 4.20 era, 97 era+

Kelly: 3.41 era, 112 era+

Buchholz: 3.92 era, 109 era+

Masterson: 4.24 era, 95 era+

 

That group would have been solid overall, if they had just pitched to their career averages. Not asking for any of them to do anything special. Just be....who themselves.

 

I don't think the ERA+ averages tell the whole story with this group though. Buchholz and Masterson have been tremendously erratic. Masterson was coming off injury and serious decline in velocity. Buchholz and Kelly have had trouble staying healthy.

 

There was a huge amount of X factor with this group, and it blew up.

[mvp 78]

I'd also say that most recent performance (i.e. previous 2-3 years) is more indicative of future performance than career averages.

[Palodios]

They were all awful except Clay, who was great until he got hurt. Well, maybe that IS who Clay is I guess. But really, this crew should have provided the Sox with a plenty good enough rotation. But they sucked. Ben wasn't asking too much of them, really. He wasn't asking any of them to be better than their career averages. But they failed.

 

Don't get me wrong, I will always be a Ben Cherrington fan. There were simply too many red flags in that rotation early.

[mvp 78]

Can't build a rotation based on best case scenario.

[User Name]

Can't build a rotation based on best case scenario.

 

Can't build it based on worst-case scenario either. But as much as I liked the Red Sox' overall chances last season (mostly based on offense and the ability to add pitching in-season) I was critical of the lack of depth, because some guys had the potential to blow up, which is what happened.

 

Nonetheless, Cherington brought this team a championship, and there are other things to talk about, like what is David Price going to do with ALL OF THE MONEY.

[Spudboy]

$30.+ mil per year is roughly $1. mil per start.

 

That is a big number 1.

[mvp 78]

Can't build it based on worst-case scenario either. But as much as I liked the Red Sox' overall chances last season (mostly based on offense and the ability to add pitching in-season) I was critical of the lack of depth, because some guys had the potential to blow up, which is what happened.

 

Nonetheless, Cherington brought this team a championship, and there are other things to talk about, like what is David Price going to do with ALL OF THE MONEY.

 

If I was him, I'd swim in it Scrooge McDuck style. I'd also have a helicopter drop me and the starting catcher off after the national anthem.

[Orange Juiced]

I don't think the ERA+ averages tell the whole story with this group though. Buchholz and Masterson have been tremendously erratic. Masterson was coming off injury and serious decline in velocity. Buchholz and Kelly have had trouble staying healthy.

 

There was a huge amount of X factor with this group, and it blew up.

 

No doubt there were a lot of questions about the rotation. But again, they didn't need to outperform their career norms. Just match them. None of them did. That it all blew up was a statistical oddity that is unlikely to happen again. Just one of those things, really. In fact, most of them pulled it together in the 2nd half of the year, but the bullpen blew too many games. They were one of the better teams in the AL over the 2nd half.

[a700hitter]

No doubt there were a lot of questions about the rotation. But again, they didn't need to outperform their career norms. Just match them. None of them did. That it all blew up was a statistical oddity that is unlikely to happen again. Just one of those things, really. In fact, most of them pulled it together in the 2nd half of the year, but the bullpen blew too many games. They were one of the better teams in the AL over the 2nd half.

it was a terrible rotation even if they performed to career norms. They were a 4 ERA bunch. Combine that with a terrible bullpen and their pitching was built on quicksand. Staffs with 4+ ERAs don't compete for the playoffs these days and they were hovering around 5 for most of the season. Edited December 4, 2015 by a700hitter

[Kimmi]

I'll never get my head around people's need to deny Cherington credit.

 

He made some costly errors last year, which led to the Dombruski move, but he also did a hell of a lot of good and also delivered that small matter of a championship as well.

 

I swear, a few people will argue relentlessly because of the person they are replying too, rather than belief in their own logic.

 

If the Red Sox win the WS within the next few years, or even just make the playoffs, you can bet that people are going to credit Dombrowski for all of the big and bold moves that he has made, and rightly so.

 

However, those moves would be largely impossible right now if Cherington (and Theo) did not stock this team with a young, cost-controlled core of players and a deep farm system. This is still largely Cherington's team.

[Kimmi]

Winiston Churchill once said of Anthony Eden he was a great foreign minister but a terrible prime minister. That's my view of Cherrington. He was a good number 2 or 3 but a lousy nbr 1. When Theo left, Henry and Lucchino made the mistake of promoting Cherrington to a position for which he was ill suited.

 

Weren't you just as glad to get rid of Theo, aka "Inepstein" as you are to be rid of Cherington?

[jacksonianmarch]

If the sox win the WS, it's because Dombrowski put the team over the top. Similar to how Duquette built the 04 Sox, but Theo made the move for Schilling which put them over the top. I think Henry sees that the foundation is solid, but they needed moves to put the team over the top. DD is doing that now

[Kimmi]

Banned. Also, no one here actually cares about other people's opinions on Ben Cherington. He's gone. Let it go.

 

Where's the fun in that?

[Kimmi]

If the pitchers in last year's rotation had simply pitched up to their career norms, they'd have been fine. Until last year with the Sox, here were these guys' career numbers:

 

Miley: 3.79 era, 103 era+

Porcello: 4.20 era, 97 era+

Kelly: 3.41 era, 112 era+

Buchholz: 3.92 era, 109 era+

Masterson: 4.24 era, 95 era+

 

That group would have been solid overall, if they had just pitched to their career averages. Not asking for any of them to do anything special. Just be....who themselves.

 

Well, they weren't. They were all awful except Clay, who was great until he got hurt. Well, maybe that IS who Clay is I guess. But really, this crew should have provided the Sox with a plenty good enough rotation. But they sucked. Ben wasn't asking too much of them, really. He wasn't asking any of them to be better than their career averages. But they failed.

 

Spot on post. They weren't supposed to be a great rotation. They were supposed to be decent enough to keep the vaunted offense in most of the games. They underperformed, as did the vaunted offense.

[Kimmi]

No doubt there were a lot of questions about the rotation. But again, they didn't need to outperform their career norms. Just match them. None of them did. That it all blew up was a statistical oddity that is unlikely to happen again. Just one of those things, really. In fact, most of them pulled it together in the 2nd half of the year, but the bullpen blew too many games. They were one of the better teams in the AL over the 2nd half.

 

Some would even call it an enigma.

[Kimmi]

If the sox win the WS, it's because Dombrowski put the team over the top. Similar to how Duquette built the 04 Sox, but Theo made the move for Schilling which put them over the top. I think Henry sees that the foundation is solid, but they needed moves to put the team over the top. DD is doing that now

 

That is certainly fair enough. That said, if Ben had the chance and open checkbook that Dombrowski has, I am confident that the team he would have assembled would be a playoff contender this season.

[User Name]

When did Jacko become a good poster? How did this happen? What Yankee fan am I going to s*** on now? Nothing makes sense anymore.

[Youk Of The Nation]

When did Jacko become a good poster? How did this happen? What Yankee fan am I going to s*** on now? Nothing makes sense anymore.

 

You can always go after Divinity during one of the three or four days a year when he posts. Or just Yankees fans in general, there's no reason not to frequently remind everyone that Yankees fans are the worst people in the history of people.

[cp176]

you need an ace. We didn't have an ace last year nor did we try to get one. We didn't - we should have - it sucked. Most people felt that at some point they would try get a top of the rotation guy. Nope - We are going in a new direction. If we have a good year, as far as I am concerned you can give anybody the credit. I know all about how some teams have been successful without an ace. We weren't and aren't one of those teams. We now have a top pitcher at both ends whom we don't have to hope will perform better than they ever have.

[Elktonnick]

Weren't you just as glad to get rid of Theo, aka "Inepstein" as you are to be rid of Cherington?

 

Every GM has their time to go. While I never thought Theo was an incompetent GM and Chief of Baseball Operations as was Cherrington, it was his time to move on. And he knew it if there were those among the fan base who didn't.

 

I don't care what Cherrington did or didn't do to build the farm system as Chief of Baseball Operations he was over his head. He was ill suited for the job and that's why he was fired. (Oh I know he was given an opportunity to take a demotion but make no mistake about it he was fired) John Henry finally realized Cherrington's limitations and forced him out along with Larry Lucchino although the latter a bit more gracefully.

[Spudboy]

You can always go after Divinity during one of the three or four days a year when he posts. Or just Yankees fans in general, there's no reason not to frequently remind everyone that Yankees fans are the worst people in the history of people.

 

Well said young man.

[Spudboy]

I just don't see any need for controversy regarding GMs and such.

 

It's all milk over the dam as far as I am concerned.

[cp176]

I just don't see any need for controversy regarding GMs and such.

 

It's all milk over the dam as far as I am concerned.

 

 

Based on what Greinke just signed for , I would say that it is liquid gold over the dam. What's up with these teams signing all these old bastards for that kind of money. Somebody other than Dombrowsi i guess has a wad of cash to throw around.

[cp176]

Based on what Greinke just signed for , I would say that it is liquid gold over the dam. What's up with these teams signing all these old bastards for that kind of money. Somebody other than Dombrowsi i guess has a wad of cash to throw around.

 

they clearly didn't get the memos that these old farts have seen better days. Just imagine Greinke making that kind of money when he is 37 and 38. Looks like the boys in the desert want to win.

[a700hitter]

I just don't see any need for controversy regarding GMs and such.

 

It's all milk over the dam as far as I am concerned.

They are all a bunch of overpaid pukes in suits playing an adult version of strat-o-matic. I have little regard for any of them. They recycle the same guys throughout the ol'boys network when few of them are qualified to manage a grocery store. I'll debate the moves they make, but I couldn't give a s*** about about any of them.

[User Name]

I just don't see any need for controversy regarding GMs and such.

 

It's all milk over the dam as far as I am concerned.

 

A lot of big words and not a lot of actual substance to the argument. He deserves credit for the WS, and the blame for the last place finishes, which is why he's no longer here. It's not rocket science. It's easy to analyze someone's credentials and qualifications from the comfort of one's couch isn't it?