Craig Kimbrel to Boston

[Kimmi]

Oh I wouldn't want Papelbon either. You could probably get the job done necessary for an entire bullpen for that price. It's just classic glazed eyes at the 9th inning. Almost every team that has gotten to the finish line the last few years got this gig done for much cheaper - in terms of dollars and prospects. Padres get credit - turned a luxury item into four prospects, one who might do more for their team next season than Kimbrel does for Boston. (not likely, but not impossible)

 

SK, as always, spot on posts in this thread.

[a700hitter]

No one here is suggesting that the team stay status quo. No one here is suggesting that we don't give up any prospects. Everyone here understands that we have an abundance of prospects, some of whom are blocked, and that they are a valuable trade asset. Everyone here understands that we needed bullpen help and that Kimbrel will help the team.

 

The issue is with the value of what we gave up versus what we got back. Dombrowski did not make the best use of those assets.

In your opinion, has the team philosophy changed based on this first transaction?

[Spudboy]

Throw rocks at DD if you want. I don't give a hoot for the suits, but status quo would mean another last place finish, and we might ooh and ahh over some prospects, but unless there were changes, the only thing that would be below us in the standings on the monster score board would have been the left field warning track. These guys had no future with this club. The only thing worse than our starters might have been our bullpen. This was a big move to help address the team's biggest weakness. If you want to cry about it, that is your right. I like that we just improved.

 

So, you don't like giving up prospects to get talent. Are you also going to complain if we spend $200 million on David Price? If we want to get better, it will cost prospects or money. There is no getting around that.

 

 

My name is Spudboy and I endorse this post.

[Kimmi]

In your opinion, has the philosophy changed with this first deal?

 

Yes, it has changed, but to what extent remains to be seen.

 

This trades seemingly means that the Sox will be handing out a large contract to a pitcher over 30. Another change in philosophy.

 

If Dombrowski keeps the rest of the farm mostly intact, and continues to prioritize long term goals as well as short term goals, then I will be happy with the direction he is taking the team. I do not want to see the "win now at any cost mentality", at the expense of the future.

[Kimmi]

Like I said in the other thread, no one like to pay retail. We bought a quality item. There is no denying that.

 

If you want to be unhappy about it, that is your right. I am optimistic about this move. Would it be fair to say that you are pessimistic about it?

 

Nowhere have I denied that we're getting a quality reliever.

 

Nowhere have I said that I'm unhappy about having Kimbrel on the team. In fact, I'm glad to have him and have said so more than once.

 

I am not pessimistic about the deal in terms of the outlook for the Red Sox.

 

All I'm saying is that Dombrowksi could have made better use of those resources.

[Spudboy]

Not much less than Kimbrel. Uehara was the better pitcher last season, even when you account for bulk. It's a lot easier to regulate a dude's workload as a Mr 9th inning. Uehara has experience with coming into tougher spots than Kimbrel, but clearly he has to be managed like a faberge egg now. That also happens to be how Kimbrel has been managed his whole career.

 

Now I see a lot of "Dombrowski did what he had to do" and excitement the Red Sox traded for a reliever they had heard of. Some fairly classic Mel Hall-era Yankees thinking there. This was a bizarre use of prospect heft, and a fairly risky pickup.

 

I think it was a ballsy move that stands a decent chance of being a major reason this team may be on the upswing. That pen needs quality arms that stand a good chance of performing at a high level while remaining productive for a few years. 2-3 more decent arms and 1-2 top of the rotation guys and this team is instantly a favorite.

 

Of course I maintain that there is at least a chance that DD does not go out and get a #1 starter. If so, a strong pen is even more useful. In any case, as a700 has said, my team just got better.

[Spudboy]

It's a better move than Ben made the past year.

 

It is a bolder and stronger move, yes.

 

But Ben did get Smiley and Hannigan.

[Spudboy]

If we want to bitch and moan about squandering assets, do we really need to look any further than Panda, Hanley and Porcello --a $250 million shopping cart of crap?

 

Seriously.

 

Although I suspect that Porcello will prove to be better than he has shown, so far. He will have some value while the other two remain useless over-paid schlock.

[cp176]

What this move tells me is that DD doesn't just want to try to win next year. I think that when he is done he will expect to win based on the moves he makes. Arguing that he could have gotten more with a package of Margot, Guerra and someone else is that the someone else probably would have had to be someone very special. There certainly are no guarantees that any successful package would have even included Margot or Guerra. If the front office felt this strongly about trading for one of the top closers in baseball, I'm assuming that they truly believe that we won't be a 500 or sub 500 team next year. To get the top of the rotation starter that we need in a trade it would have taken a hell of a lot more than this one took.

[Bellhorn04]

What this move tells me is that DD doesn't just want to try to win next year. I think that when he is done he will expect to win based on the moves he makes. Arguing that he could have gotten more with a package of Margot, Guerra and someone else is that the someone else probably would have had to be someone very special. There certainly are no guarantees that any successful package would have even included Margot or Guerra. If the front office felt this strongly about trading for one of the top closers in baseball, I'm assuming that they truly believe that we won't be a 500 or sub 500 team next year. To get the top of the rotation starter that we need in a trade it would have taken a hell of a lot more than this one took.

 

To me the message is that John Henry is all in on the 2016 season. He's had enough of this losing s*** just like us.

[Spudboy]

To me the message is that John Henry is all in on the 2016 season. He's had enough of this losing s*** just like us.

 

That would be cool.

[a700hitter]

Nowhere have I denied that we're getting a quality reliever.

 

Nowhere have I said that I'm unhappy about having Kimbrel on the team. In fact, I'm glad to have him and have said so more than once.

 

I am not pessimistic about the deal in terms of the outlook for the Red Sox.

 

All I'm saying is that Dombrowksi could have made better use of those resources.

You are refuting a whole lot of things that I never attributed to you, but you have confirmed what I did say-- that no one like to pay retail.

[jung]

Well if that were the case they would have swallowed the one year rental on Chapman. I think they are all in to get back to contending and probably all in to be seriously contending by as early as 2017. I think they just want to be lots better in 2016 but will not sacrifice the future past 2016 FOR 2016.

[sk7326]

Well if that were the case they would have swallowed the one year rental on Chapman. I think they are all in to get back to contending and probably all in to be seriously contending by as early as 2017. I think they just want to be lots better in 2016 but will not sacrifice the future past 2016 FOR 2016.

 

A closer does not make LOTS ... certainly not 2 premium prospect LOTS

[sk7326]

Koji will be an 8th inning guy. With a carefully managed workload, I am think your argument that the 8th inning will overtax him is overstated.

 

Harder to carefully manage a workload in the 8th - many of the highest leverage spots pop up there. Now if the other 5-6 relievers they sign or whatever can help, so be it. But bullpen performance has historically been very volatile, enough that signing particular names to big deals is riskier than other aspects of a team.

[sk7326]

You are refuting a whole lot of things that I never attributed to you, but you have confirmed what I did say-- that no one like to pay retail.

 

This trade is paying Maserati prices for a Camry - at a time when nobody is paying Camry prices for a Camry.

[mvp 78]

Kimbrell isn't a Camry.

[Spudboy]

Harder to carefully manage a workload in the 8th - many of the highest leverage spots pop up there. Now if the other 5-6 relievers they sign or whatever can help, so be it. But bullpen performance has historically been very volatile, enough that signing particular names to big deals is riskier than other aspects of a team.

 

I believe that we all knows this and believe it to be true. And the Sox have shown this recently especially with the signing of two top closers only to find that neither could pitch ( at least while here ).

 

The Sox pen was # 26 in MLB in 2015. A major overhaul is necessary. While technically you are correct when saying the Sox do not need a closer, that they are somewhat strong there, we will need a new closer and I say strike while the fire is hot. He is one of the best and he is available NOW. I disagree that a closer of equal value can be had much cheaper. I say with Paps getting his deal, Miller getting over-paid by NY, The Sox doling out $9. mil to Koji, well, maybe this is the new closer economics. The Sox need pitchers in the pen PERIOD. Which end they start at is far less important than what they finish with.

 

The team is better. Maybe not better enough to justify your approval. But it has gotten better.

[Spudboy]

You know I'm sitting here wondering if I have this straight.

 

Ted and I are the ones looking through rose colored glasses? I concede that I have been thirsting for something positive to happen regarding my Sox. So if this were a really bad deal I would be all over the Sox for being dumb.

[a700hitter]

You know I'm sitting here wondering if I have this straight.

 

Ted and I are the ones looking through rose colored glasses? I concede that I have been thirsting for something positive to happen regarding my Sox. So if this were a really bad deal I would be all over the Sox for being dumb.

The irony.

[jung]

The pen was roundly criticized last year and rightfully so. It was a horse and buggy version of a bullpen. We are not "somewhat strong" in anything that has anything to do with pitching and don't even have adequate assets in the farm system to build up and develop for the ML club. We have hardly a power arm ANYWHERE in the system, not a real power arm save maybe ONE.

 

Might Kimbrel blow up in our faces???? Yup he might. Is that possibility a rationalization for just sitting here and waiting for what!!!! a next generation of pitchers to be drafted and work their way up to the system in an effort to finally bring our pen assets up to contemporary standards?

 

Yes it was an overpay. We are not dealing from anything that remotely resembles strength as it relates to pitching just as pitching is growing more and more dominant again...apparently a dynamic that Larry and BC did not see coming. it was plain as the noses on their faces but they just kept stumbling along in the same old way....bats bats bats...its Boston, gotta' have bats....does not matter if they are old bats....fat bats......deceitful bats, bats without power ....who cares..... just so long as they are bats. So now we are stuck with two bad options....do nothing but....draft, develop and wait....or try to kick start the process using assets that are somewhat duplicated elsewhere in the organization.

 

And

 

We can stop with the BS about being able to use those assets to secure a Sale or a Gray or any of the Mets young arms because we would be stacking assets like cord wood to bring any one of those guys here and it start with guys none of us want to trade...I don't mean JBJ either. We would get laughed out of the room trying to make JBJ the centerpiece of a deal for any of those guys.

 

Two things would make me howl from here:

1) Using assets to rent a pitcher for 2016

2) A similar overpay either in fact or in scale at this point which I don't see happening. The asking price for top starters in trade would be too great. I don't believe for a minute that DD will stop trying the trade route regardless of what he says publicly but it hardly matters.

 

I am OK with this overpay at this time for this player. If it is repeated anytime soon I might howl along with others that are already howling. The wait option is not appealing to me as I will be pushing up daisies before that option yields anything worth talking about.

[cp176]

A closer does not make LOTS ... certainly not 2 premium prospect LOTS

 

 

Just my guess - I don't think that the dealing is quite done yet.

[Kimmi]

I believe that we all knows this and believe it to be true. And the Sox have shown this recently especially with the signing of two top closers only to find that neither could pitch ( at least while here ).

 

The Sox pen was # 26 in MLB in 2015. A major overhaul is necessary. While technically you are correct when saying the Sox do not need a closer, that they are somewhat strong there, we will need a new closer and I say strike while the fire is hot. He is one of the best and he is available NOW. I disagree that a closer of equal value can be had much cheaper. I say with Paps getting his deal, Miller getting over-paid by NY, The Sox doling out $9. mil to Koji, well, maybe this is the new closer economics. The Sox need pitchers in the pen PERIOD. Which end they start at is far less important than what they finish with.

 

The team is better. Maybe not better enough to justify your approval. But it has gotten better.

 

The team is better. It's not better enough to justify the cost. I understand the need to overpay sometimes. I understand the idea of dealing from your areas of strength. I understand how much we needed BP help. I just don't like that we gave up so much for a relief pitcher, regardless of how good Kimbrel is.

[sk7326]

Right now the team spent a lot of prospect heft for probably 0.5-1 win ... 79-83 isn't too shabby

[Kimmi]

The pen was roundly criticized last year and rightfully so. It was a horse and buggy version of a bullpen. We are not "somewhat strong" in anything that has anything to do with pitching and don't even have adequate assets in the farm system to build up and develop for the ML club. We have hardly a power arm ANYWHERE in the system, not a real power arm save maybe ONE.

 

Might Kimbrel blow up in our faces???? Yup he might. Is that possibility a rationalization for just sitting here and waiting for what!!!! a next generation of pitchers to be drafted and work their way up to the system in an effort to finally bring our pen assets up to contemporary standards?

 

Yes it was an overpay. We are not dealing from anything that remotely resembles strength as it relates to pitching just as pitching is growing more and more dominant again...apparently a dynamic that Larry and BC did not see coming. it was plain as the noses on their faces but they just kept stumbling along in the same old way....bats bats bats...its Boston, gotta' have bats....does not matter if they are old bats....fat bats......deceitful bats, bats without power ....who cares..... just so long as they are bats. So now we are stuck with two bad options....do nothing but....draft, develop and wait....or try to kick start the process using assets that are somewhat duplicated elsewhere in the organization.

 

And

 

We can stop with the BS about being able to use those assets to secure a Sale or a Gray or any of the Mets young arms because we would be stacking assets like cord wood to bring any one of those guys here and it start with guys none of us want to trade...I don't mean JBJ either. We would get laughed out of the room trying to make JBJ the centerpiece of a deal for any of those guys.

 

Two things would make me howl from here:

1) Using assets to rent a pitcher for 2016

2) A similar overpay either in fact or in scale at this point which I don't see happening. The asking price for top starters in trade would be too great. I don't believe for a minute that DD will stop trying the trade route regardless of what he says publicly but it hardly matters.

 

I am OK with this overpay at this time for this player. If it is repeated anytime soon I might howl along with others that are already howling. The wait option is not appealing to me as I will be pushing up daisies before that option yields anything worth talking about.

 

Not liking the package that we gave up for Kimbrel has nothing to do with thinking that he will blow up in our faces. I am not concerned with how he will perform.

 

Even though I don't like what we gave up for Kimbrel, I agree with your sentiment about being "OK" with this overpay at this time. Our team got better, our farm system is still in great shape, and our future has not been sacrificed. If Dombrowski becomes reckless in trading away our prospects, then that will be a different story.

 

That said, I think acquiring a starter has become more difficult now. I agree with you that Dombrowski is not necessarily finished making trades. Perhaps he said that in an attempt to bring other teams' prices down just a tad. If he does make a trade for a starter, it will now be much more difficult, and painful, to put together a package. IMO, he would have been better off adding a few more pieces to the package he gave up for Kimbrel and getting a starter.

 

If Dombrowski is indeed intent on going the free agent route for a starter, there is no guarantee that we can land Price, even if Henry okays a big contract. From what I've read, Price seems to be interested in some NL teams, with the Cubs leading the way. As I said with Lester, the allure of the Cubs might just be too much to resist.

 

IMO, if the Sox offer roughly the same as other teams, Price would choose several other teams over the Sox. The Sox will have to overpay above the other teams bidding in order to land him.

[Kimmi]

Right now the team spent a lot of prospect heft for probably 0.5-1 win ... 79-83 isn't too shabby

 

LOL SK.

 

I agree with the others that Kimbrel strengthens more than just the closer's role, but your overall point stands.

[Bellhorn04]

Right now the team spent a lot of prospect heft for probably 0.5-1 win ... 79-83 isn't too shabby

 

I think Kimbrel should be worth 1.5-2 more wins. And if we get to the playoffs, maybe 1 more win on top of that.

[cp176]

Right now the team spent a lot of prospect heft for probably 0.5-1 win ... 79-83 isn't too shabby

 

 

Simply taking comments at face value, I think that it is quite possible that Kimbrel will be much more likely to help us win games next year and in the future than any of the 4 traded prospects. We will just have to see how the statistical data works out this year as opposed to last year.

[mvp 78]

Right now the team spent a lot of prospect heft for probably 0.5-1 win ... 79-83 isn't too shabby

 

Prospects that were wither blocked or are years away from getting to MLB. We get it. You enjoy finishing last.

 

Personally, I'd rather watch competitive baseball on NESN than jerk it to soxprospects.com.

[Spudboy]

Lol.