Sandoval or Headley?

[User Name]

It's a conflicted philosophy, because no matter what they say, they always have an eye on attendance and ratings too. Personally the lack of consistency doesn't bother me too much. I expect it.

 

I think there's a disconnect between our definition of "consistency". The Sox FO never flat-out denied they'd ever make another high-profile move. They said they'd be extremely careful with their long-term financial investments. That makes sense. But then they go out and sign the two best bats in the market, who are meant to play the same position, and move one of them to the OF, and said player hasn't logged an inning in the OF since a winter league stint years ago.

[Bellhorn04]

I think there's a disconnect between our definition of "consistency". The Sox FO never flat-out denied they'd ever make another high-profile move. They said they'd be extremely careful with their long-term financial investments. That makes sense. But then they go out and sign the two best bats in the market, who are meant to play the same position, and move one of them to the OF, and said player hasn't logged an inning in the OF since a winter league stint years ago.

 

What I mean is, I don't think they've ever really had a 'consistent philosophy' under this ownership - not for very long anyway.

[a700hitter]

What I mean is, I don't think they've ever really had a 'consistent philosophy' under this ownership - not for very long anyway.

They have consistently abandoned any philosophy after it fails for a short period.

[Bellhorn04]

They have consistently abandoned any philosophy after it fails for a short period.

 

Yes, I think that's what the history shows. Like I say, I understand it. It's a business and Red Sox fans are not the most patient constituency.

[sk7326]

What I mean is, I don't think they've ever really had a 'consistent philosophy' under this ownership - not for very long anyway.

 

It is quite a testament to the baseball people who have worked under this ownership. Because you are right, yet this team has managed to win a ton and basically be the most successful franchise in the game over that time. (the Cards have lacked the bad seasons, but 1 fewer title) The talent evaluators have remained excellent. For most of this ownership's tour (2004-2011) the on-field coaching staff was elite. Now it is not as good, although I certainly don't put the entirety of 2014 on their shoulders. It is a weird frustrating part of an ownership that has been phenomenal in many important areas.

[Orange Juiced]

They have consistently abandoned any philosophy after it fails for a short period.

 

Things constantly change. That's the way it goes.

[GomesBeard]

I think the more interesting question regarding this is who is actually driving? We know Cherington has had a lot of experience in org development, and the scouting is top notch. This franchise has drafted well year after year. I think ownership priorities shift very violently - and Cherington and the baseball working stiffs are left to make the best of it baseball-wise. That is a flaw in the machinery.

 

I think at times the dynamic in the front office is more or less like what we saw in the Gonzalez trade. Ownership made the dump with the Dodgers, and it was up to Cherington's folks to swoop in and identify prospects to make it a tractable (in fact, quite good by salary dump standards) baseball deal. I am not trying to exempt him from accountability or scrutiny, but I do wonder how empowered he is at times. (or whether the level of empowerment has been consistent, if that makes sense)

 

I'm thinking that John Henry has re-calibrated his computer model for the Sox, from the hard-line 'can't go over $189 million' stance of 2014 to a little more softer input into the black box in that regard. As well as altering the models that predicted the performances of the rookies with some additional historical data.

[Palodios]

The Panda move looks like a ticket-selling Lucchino move to me. I wouldn't doubt him being empowered once again regarding baseball operations after the disaster that was 2014.

 

The more I think about it that way, the more I am okay with the Sandoval move. He's a World Series mvp that everyone has heard of, and will sell tickets. The Panda thing is cute, and may very well help start building the next generation of fans. As fans, we shouldn't care about how they spend their money, so if they spend money in a way that is going to make them money short term and long term, why not?

 

On the baseball side, he is a clubhouse presence that will hopefully help with the foundation after Ortiz leaves. He's old 28 years old, has a history of solid health in the majors. If Fenway, and the improved lineup makes him a .800 hitter, it might not be so bad.

 

I am also dreaming of a playoff push that includes Lester and three World Series MVPs in Hamels, Ortiz, and Sandoval.

[Palodios]

It's a conflicted philosophy, because no matter what they say, they always have an eye on attendance and ratings too. Personally the lack of consistency doesn't bother me too much. I expect it.

 

Fortunately, the Red Sox haven't been trading away prospects. They're spending big money, but that's it.

[Bellhorn04]

Fortunately, the Red Sox haven't been trading away prospects. They're spending big money, but that's it.

 

Yes, they have certainly been accumulating a stockpile of prospects.

[a700hitter]

Things constantly change. That's the way it goes.

 

Yep. I take it with a grain of salt when people talk about a certain move being against the FO philosophy which has been demonstrably fluid over the years.

[User Name]

The more I think about it that way, the more I am okay with the Sandoval move. He's a World Series mvp that everyone has heard of, and will sell tickets. The Panda thing is cute, and may very well help start building the next generation of fans. As fans, we shouldn't care about how they spend their money, so if they spend money in a way that is going to make them money short term and long term, why not?

 

On the baseball side, he is a clubhouse presence that will hopefully help with the foundation after Ortiz leaves. He's old 28 years old, has a history of solid health in the majors. If Fenway, and the improved lineup makes him a .800 hitter, it might not be so bad.

 

I am also dreaming of a playoff push that includes Lester and three World Series MVPs in Hamels, Ortiz, and Sandoval.

 

You're rationalizing severely. Panda has declined offensively four years running. As fans we should care about the way they spend their money because when the budget tightens then we'll want them to make moves and when they scream "we're burdened by these dumb contracts" we, as fans, will complain.

[BSN07]

Panda was the younger, better, more durable option at 3B. Yes it's a bit flashy, but he was needed for more than just his name. He can hit LH and plays a good 3B. I'm going to assume if need be he can learn to play 1B. If Napoli can manage it, I'm not that worried about Panda. Besides his contract is done before he reaches his mid 30's. How often do you get an under 30 all star for that?

 

imo Hanley was never signed to play SS or 3B. I believe he reached out to the team(media reports state this part)and the team responded saying we are interested if you will move to the OF and that's it. I think the #1 3B target was always Pablo. Hanley seems to have fallen in their lap kind of.

 

As far as philosophy goes, they haven't done anything different than usual really. They are conscious of long term deals and try and up the AAV and get shorter deals. Same thing they did with Vic. That and they spend money when the deal is right. Both players were signed for less than expectations. They didn't spend a ton last year because they were mindful of the LT being close to it(I believe that was their 2nd year under so it it meant a reset on the LT penalties) and passed on over priced long term deals that were getting handed out to players they had interest in last season. 5 guaranteed years or less for a higher AAV seems to be the MO since the trade of 2011. I really don't see why some think it's changed. They may bend it for Lester, but bending the guidelines a bit for a homegrown player occasionally isn't the end of the world. Cherries seems aggressive overall to me. There's not piddling around, if it's working fine, if it's not he has no problem hitting the reset button and changing s*** up. Me personally I like that style. I've always been of the thinking that if it's not working by July and you have short term pieces you don't need for 2 months get what you can. My overall opinion of the FO is generally neutral. I like some things and I don't like somethings. I like the general direction of the team going forward. It's not like they have run the team into the ground like the Phillies mind trust.

 

And fred it's November for f sakes lol You're gonna have a fing stroke if you don't relax a bit. This isn't NFL free agency. It's slow going until usually after the Winter Meetings "every year" and even then Boras may drag out Scherzer until January, which may keep the SP market backed up and effect trade progress.

[Palodios]

You're rationalizing severely.

 

Absolutely. I am rationalizing this, and will continue to do so, despite disliking the contract:p

 

Honestly, besides the weight issues, he seems like a safe bet. When you look for players to give long contracts, it is important to look at health history, age, consistency, and personality/PR. His split against lefties is concerning, but worst case scenario, you get someone in to platoon with him in a few years.

 

I would be more concerned about his decline if not for the circumstances. He lost 45 pounds in the offseason, and ended up slumping in April while adjusting.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Palodios

[User Name]

Absolutely. I am rationalizing this, and will continue to do so, despite disliking the contract:p

 

Honestly, besides the weight issues, he seems like a safe bet. When you look for players to give long contracts, it is important to look at health history, age, consistency, and personality/PR. His split against lefties is concerning, but worst case scenario, you get someone in to platoon with him in a few years.

 

I would be more concerned about his decline if not for the circumstances. He lost 45 pounds in the offseason, and ended up slumping in April while adjusting.

 

That is very fair.

[Orange Juiced]

Yep. I take it with a grain of salt when people talk about a certain move being against the FO philosophy which has been demonstrably fluid over the years.

 

I agree 100%. Spot on.

[Spudboy]

I'm not going to defend the front office. They don't need me by their side.

 

I just think that baseball is a business. The men who run the business must adjust to market conditions in order to keep their product viable.

 

I see the Sox recent moves as moves they believed were necessary. I may not agree with them but it's their team, not mine.

[jd98]

Panda was the younger, better, more durable option at 3B.

 

I could argue that only 1 of those 3 things is true.

[Dojji]

In a year Panda will be our starting first baseman. All of his weakest assets are diluted in significance if he plays first base. Napoli's coming off the books next year if not earlier (I still think he's one of our best trading chips now or at the deadline). Hanley's on the roster and more comfortable at third base than anywhere else he can presently play. All signs point to Napoli is not brought back, or is even moved before the contract expires, and Hanley is on hand to play 3B over most of his contract while Sandoval moves to 1B and we enter the market for a LF. Edited November 26, 2014 by Dojji

[sk7326]

The more I think about it that way, the more I am okay with the Sandoval move. He's a World Series mvp that everyone has heard of, and will sell tickets. The Panda thing is cute, and may very well help start building the next generation of fans. As fans, we shouldn't care about how they spend their money, so if they spend money in a way that is going to make them money short term and long term, why not?

 

On the baseball side, he is a clubhouse presence that will hopefully help with the foundation after Ortiz leaves. He's old 28 years old, has a history of solid health in the majors. If Fenway, and the improved lineup makes him a .800 hitter, it might not be so bad.

 

I am also dreaming of a playoff push that includes Lester and three World Series MVPs in Hamels, Ortiz, and Sandoval.

 

His OPS has declined from his one monster year - that is a problem. But he also has been very consistent since. The raw power is there, but his approach limits it some. (the focus on contact and using the opposite field, think of a version of stuff people said about Wade Boggs and Ichiro at various times) I do think the move is solid from a baseball perspective. I do not love the deal, but if you are going to do this, doing in on a 28 year old with some projection left (due to being a good athlete and exceptional contact skills) is the sort of thing which makes sense. It is tempting to look at a body like his and come to a conclusion about him being at 1B in a couple of years - but his actual athleticism belies that. (http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/49972/third-baseman-pablo-sandoval-is-giants-most-valuable-defender)

[Behindenemylines]

Panda says he wants to a 3B the length of his contract. Lets hope he is serious and hires a personal trainer and a personal cook with his new big dollar contract. I think the Sox showed him their confidence by over paying him. Now lets see the Panda return the favor and be serious about watching his weight. The guy can hit, and is clutch when the bright lights of post season are on. I think his personality fits Boston and he will produce when he is on the field. He just needs to stay on the field.

[Spudboy]

Believe it or not, Sandoval already has a personal trainer.

[a700hitter]

Believe it or not, Sandoval already has a personal trainer.

That's a good sign.

[RiceLynnEvans]

Maybe HanRam as the future 1b? He's got infielder's instincts, and it's the spot where he'd least likely end up on the DL (think Youk - healthy and hitting when at 1b, old and in the way at 3b or, ugh, left field). Try him out, give him reps....keep him infield ready in case X goes down (injury or P'tckt), and if the FO can grab pitching by adding Nap to a package, then maybe sell high on him. If Sandoval wants to man 3b, let him earn it and think about making a change later - the guy's only 28. That said, trading Nap now would be the wrong move - he's playing for a contract and looks great slotted in the 6 spot behind Pedy, Pap, Han and San. Pretty nice heart of the order book-ended by Castillo and Betts, eh? Hanley in the OF just sounds wrong....there is a glut of premium players there. His value may be as insurance against a Craig fade out and Nap leaving, thus putting the team in great bargaining shape. They look great for baseball card swapping right now; they're just not a team, yet.

[Behindenemylines]

Remember a lot of those Giants teams had weak offenses. The Panda was asked to do more to help the Giants score. Plus this guy always comes up big in the post season.

[mvp 78]

Need a LH power hitter. Give me the pop for the extra dollars and years. Panda the most logical fit to me.

 

Kimmi is right, this was a LL move. ^

 

The rest of the posts are a good trip down memory lane.

[bkzwhitestrican]

Headley wins!!