The rebuild thread.

[jacksonianmarch]

The White Sox aren't far off from competing and they're never afraid to spend, so I'd be surprised if they dealt off a guy they'd need

[jad]

For as long as I have been following them, the RS have found big old dumb right-handed .250 hitters irresistible, despite the evidence that the greatest and most successful hitters in Fenway have been LH-- WIlliams (who I believe lost the batting title to Pete Runnels, another left handed hitter), Yastrzemski, Boggs, and both the no. 1 and 2 hitters last year (Ortiz and Nava, languishing on the bench this year and during the playoffs in favor of another big, dumb RH hitter--Gomes). Ah those heralded names: Ray Boone, Jack Clark, ... and who could forget Mike Cameron?

[a700hitter]

For as long as I have been following them, the RS have found big old dumb right-handed .250 hitters irresistible, despite the evidence that the greatest and most successful hitters in Fenway have been LH-- WIlliams (who I believe lost the batting title to Pete Runnels, another left handed hitter), Yastrzemski, Boggs, and both the no. 1 and 2 hitters last year (Ortiz and Nava, languishing on the bench this year and during the playoffs in favor of another big, dumb RH hitter--Gomes). Ah those heralded names: Ray Boone, Jack Clark, ... and who could forget Mike Cameron?

Nomad and Jim Rice were some pretty good RH hitters. Manny wasn't bad either.

[InfernoOrangeSS]

Nomar and Jim Rice were some pretty good RH hitters. Manny wasn't bad either.

 

That can't be true. It doesn't fit the premise that only LH hitters are successful in Fenway.

[Palodios]

I think the bold part is what we're saying here. They might be able to afford to overpay in talent to get the best possible player at the most critical position. The stats put Sale among the elite.

 

If they are willing to go all in on Stanton I would think Sale would get some consideration too.

 

When we were talking about Stanton, he would probably cost 3-4 top 100 prospects with one or two centerpieces. Sale is a completely different animal. Remember when Felix was younger in his prime, and the Red Sox offered Buchholz, Bard, Masterson, Reddick, Doubront for him? And remember when the Mariners turned them down? This is kind of like that, except that Chris Sale is locked up for the next 5 years at bargain prices.

 

Its a "pick any 6-7 from the deepest farm system in the majors" type trade.

[example1]

When we were talking about Stanton, he would probably cost 3-4 top 100 prospects with one or two centerpieces. Sale is a completely different animal. Remember when Felix was younger in his prime, and the Red Sox offered Buchholz, Bard, Masterson, Reddick, Doubront for him? And remember when the Mariners turned them down? This is kind of like that, except that Chris Sale is locked up for the next 5 years at bargain prices.

 

Its a "pick any 6-7 from the deepest farm system in the majors" type trade.

 

You are right, it's that kind of trade. It is based on the ChiSox being willing to move him of course. But if any team in baseball could pull it off it's the Red Sox now. They could do it and still be left with a decent system in my opinion. My point was that they are in a position to make deals like that. In that regard I don't think we need to limit our speculation to guys generally believed to be available or nearing FA.

[jad]

Ha. I don't believe I ever said or implied that good rh hitters haven't been successful at Fenway (Rice, G. Scott, Manny, etc.). It's just that taking ordinary rh hitters and putting them in Fenway as if something magical will happen doesn't work, despite the number of times it's been tried. Good hitters are good hitters wherever you put them (Manny and Ortiz will hit well wherever they are). Mediocre hitters, well, there's a reason they've been mediocre in stadiums other than Fenway.

[Bellhorn04]

Ha. I don't believe I ever said or implied that good rh hitters haven't been successful at Fenway (Rice, G. Scott, Manny, etc.). It's just that taking ordinary rh hitters and putting them in Fenway as if something magical will happen doesn't work, despite the number of times it's been tried. Good hitters are good hitters wherever you put them (Manny and Ortiz will hit well wherever they are). Mediocre hitters, well, there's a reason they've been mediocre in stadiums other than Fenway.

 

Some right-handed hitters benefit from Fenway - fly-ball hitters, I would assume. Cody Ross was a classic example of a mediocre hitter who crushed at Fenway in 2012 - 921 OPS, 13 HR, 49 RBI in 66 games.

[Spudboy]

Is anyone concerned that recently acquired Allen Craig aggravated his ankle injury Friday night legging it down the 1st baseline?

 

I like the promise that I see in his offensive stats through last year. Since the September ankle injury he has been putrid ( compared to his career line, not other current Red Sox hitters! ). It's my belief that severe injuries to ankles, hamstrings, etc., never fully go away. They tend to linger for the rest of one's life.

 

I hope that Craig is not the latest Victorino to become a Red Sox. It would suck big time to see him under perform.

[a700hitter]

Is anyone concerned that recently acquired Allen Craig aggravated his ankle injury Friday night legging it down the 1st baseline?

 

I like the promise that I see in his offensive stats through last year. Since the September ankle injury he has been putrid ( compared to his career line, not other current Red Sox hitters! ). It's my belief that severe injuries to ankles, hamstrings, etc., never fully go away. They tend to linger for the rest of one's life.

 

I hope that Craig is not the latest Victorino to become a Red Sox. It would suck big time to see him under perform.

When he took that funny step hitting the bag, I thought, you have got to be kidding. Hopefully, it was a minor tweak.

[InfernoOrangeSS]

When he took that funny step hitting the bag, I thought, you have got to be kidding. Hopefully, it was a minor tweak.

 

I thought the same thing. I looked at my wife and said, "well, that should end his season."

I hope it was minor, but it looked pretty ugly to me.

[RedSoxNC84]

When he took that funny step hitting the bag, I thought, you have got to be kidding. Hopefully, it was a minor tweak.

 

All sources only have him out a couple more days at most.

[a700hitter]

Cherries is saying that they had some attractive prospect packages available for Lester and Lackey, but he went for the quick rebuild. Interesting.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Cherries is saying that they had some attractive prospect packages available for Lester and Lackey, but he went for the quick rebuild. Interesting.

 

Which is exactly what he should have done.

 

If he went with prospect packages, this would have been a 3-5 year process. We're not the Astros. This is a team that needs to be competitive next season.

[a700hitter]

Which is exactly what he should have done.

 

If he went with prospect packages, this would have been a 3-5 year process. We're not the Astros. This is a team that needs to be competitive next season.

I am just curious regarding the packages that he was offered.

[Palodios]

Interesting could have meant many things. David Price didn't return generational talent this trade deadline, so that convinces me that there probably wasn't anything available. It sounded like the Orioles balked at offering Gausman or Bundy, and the Dodgers weren't desperate enough to give up one of their guys. The best name I have heard was Josh Bell, who is a top 40 prospect who profiles as an above average RF, but obviously there aren't many details here.

[a700hitter]

Interesting could have meant many things. David Price didn't return generational talent this trade deadline, so that convinces me that there probably wasn't anything available. It sounded like the Orioles balked at offering Gausman or Bundy, and the Dodgers weren't desperate enough to give up one of their guys. The best name I have heard was Josh Bell, who is a top 40 prospect who profiles as an above average RF, but obviously there aren't many details here.

Agreed. I was just surprised by his statement.

[BigPapi]

I don't know why the sox are refusing to put mookie out there. The sox and the rest of gm's in baseball all know what jackie is and his potential. If the sox aren't going to play him, just send him back down to triple a. Also, I don't think the sox should be showcasing all of their prospects at the big league level these coming months. If they suck up here there trade stock goes down and obviously with the clusterf*** of middle infielders and third basemen, we should be dealing some of them in the near future. We want the best return we can get for them and if they turn out to be bum's, let them be some other Orginazations problem. Edited August 4, 2014 by BigPapi

[a700hitter]

Also, I don't think the sox should be showcasing all of their prospects at the big league level these coming months. If they suck up here there trade stock goes down and obviously with the clusterf*** of middle infielders and third basemen, we should be dealing some of them in the near future. We want the best return we can get for them and if they turn out to be bum's, let them be some other Orginazations problem.

This is a great point. Some organizations are very good at hyping their prospects and then trading them. The Dodgers and Yankees had been great at that. Once you bring the prospects up to the big club, you run the risk of exposing them and ruining their value. This is what has happened to Bradley and Middlebrooks. We couldn't get a bucket of warm spit for either of them. After Middlebrooks successful debut in 2012, the FO should have traded him and maximized that asset. They are supposed to know a guy's ceiling. The signs of being helpless against breaking pitches must have been present in the minors.

[BigPapi]

This is a great point. Some organizations are very good at hyping their prospects and then trading them. The Dodgers and Yankees had been great at that. Once you bring the prospects up to the big club, you run the risk of exposing them and ruining their value. This is what has happened to Bradley and Middlebrooks. We couldn't get a bucket of warm spit for either of them. After Middlebrooks successful debut in 2012, the FO should have traded him and maximized that asset. They are supposed to know a guy's ceiling. The signs of being helpless against breaking pitches must have been present in the minors.

 

I agree completely. Hype them up while they are in the minors then trade them for major league proven talent.

[rician blast]

I don't know why the sox are refusing to put mookie out there. The sox and the rest of gm's in baseball all know what jackie is and his potential. If the sox aren't going to play him, just send him back down to triple a. Also, I don't think the sox should be showcasing all of their prospects at the big league level these coming months. If they suck up here there trade stock goes down and obviously with the clusterf*** of middle infielders and third basemen, we should be dealing some of them in the near future. We want the best return we can get for them and if they turn out to be bum's, let them be some other Orginazations problem.

 

There is that chance that by rolling a bunch of prospects through the MLB roster over the next two months, some players' perceived upside might be diminished if they don't perform well. On the other hand, I'd hope that other teams' scouts and FO understand that not every player makes a splash right off...there is ample data available on the prospects that a short-term struggle shouldn't signifcatnly affect marketability. It's the extreme poor performance you want to avoid.

 

Like Webster?

[Spudboy]

Even Webster still has value if only as the 3rd or 4th player in a deal.

[Palodios]

Doesn't it seem obvious now that the Red Sox were trying to hide Webster? He dominated the last two years in AAA, but somehow Workman and RDLR got priority over him this year. I'm wondering if maybe his development has been intentionlly slow.

[BigPapi]

Doesn't it seem obvious now that the Red Sox were trying to hide Webster? He dominated the last two years in AAA, but somehow Workman and RDLR got priority over him this year. I'm wondering if maybe his development has been intentionlly slow.

 

Thats a very good point. It does seem like they were trying to hide him. They probably knew he had serious command problems.

[seabeachfred]

I don't know why the sox are refusing to put mookie out there. The sox and the rest of gm's in baseball all know what jackie is and his potential. If the sox aren't going to play him, just send him back down to triple a. Also, I don't think the sox should be showcasing all of their prospects at the big league level these coming months. If they suck up here there trade stock goes down and obviously with the clusterf*** of middle infielders and third basemen, we should be dealing some of them in the near future. We want the best return we can get for them and if they turn out to be bum's, let them be some other Orginazations problem.

 

Bravo to you Big Papi and right on the mark in my opinion. I have been touting Mookie since I first saw him in a Red Sox uniform. He can do all the things Bradley can, but since I have exhausted my rants on him I'll leave it to you and others to take up the slack. My feeling is the front office is scared to death that if they send Bradley down he won't hit there either. Betts will hit and we will run and he will be a decent CF. Jackie is really a good 4th outfielder and nothing more in my opinion.

 

As for our prospects, we have to give them a good look to make sure we don't trade the best ones and keep the over-hyped garbage ones like some we've had recently. We have over-hyped some the past few years and those who have broken in the lineup like Bradley and Bogaerts have been very disappointing.

[seabeachfred]

Doesn't it seem obvious now that the Red Sox were trying to hide Webster? He dominated the last two years in AAA, but somehow Workman and RDLR got priority over him this year. I'm wondering if maybe his development has been intentionlly slow.

 

Ranaudo pitched fairly well on Friday and won while Webster looked like crap on Saturday, and yet we sent Anthony down and kept Alan up. Those kind of blunders are reasons why so many of us are angry at the front office. If as you say Webster dominated in AAA it should be high time for him to show more than he has every time he has gone to the mound for us. That deer-in-the-headlight look is disconcerting at best. BTW, I've kicked around the pitchers we might be able to get if we are willing to make a good trade and sign a good free agent for decent but not overwhelming money. How does Cole Hamels and James Shields sound to you. They could be the No. 1 and 2 stalwarts we need to get us back to decency next season. I just don't think for a moment we have any chance of getting Lester to sign with us. What do you think Pal?

[Behindenemylines]

I don't know why the sox are refusing to put mookie out there. The sox and the rest of gm's in baseball all know what jackie is and his potential. If the sox aren't going to play him, just send him back down to triple a. Also, I don't think the sox should be showcasing all of their prospects at the big league level these coming months. If they suck up here there trade stock goes down and obviously with the clusterf*** of middle infielders and third basemen, we should be dealing some of them in the near future. We want the best return we can get for them and if they turn out to be bum's, let them be some other Orginazations problem.

 

On the flip side, if some of them perform well then their value will go up and they become more valuable trading chips. Its a fine line. It hurt watching Webster pitch the other day. The inning the $panks scored four and knocked him out of the game they didn't have one solid hit. Five walks and a couple of blops and that was that. Painful to watch.

[Palodios]

How does Cole Hamels and James Shields sound to you. They could be the No. 1 and 2 stalwarts we need to get us back to decency next season. I just don't think for a moment we have any chance of getting Lester to sign with us. What do you think Pal?

 

I'm a big fan of Lester/Cueto, personally, but Lester/Hamels also works for me. Shields is getting up there in age, and I doubt the Red Sox want him for 4-5 years at that cost.

[reYoukilis]

On the flip side, if some of them perform well then their value will go up and they become more valuable trading chips. Its a fine line. It hurt watching Webster pitch the other day. The inning the $panks scored four and knocked him out of the game they didn't have one solid hit. Five walks and a couple of blops and that was that. Painful to watch.

It is what it is, weve got no one else. I thought last year showed we were a pitching first team what with John Farrell being an ex-pitcher. Thats the team I want. Defense and pitching first. I hope beyond hope that this latest free agency isnt a change in that philosophy and I hope that they arent putting as much trust in Buchholz as it seems they are putting.

[Behindenemylines]

It is what it is, weve got no one else. I thought last year showed we were a pitching first team what with John Farrell being an ex-pitcher. Thats the team I want. Defense and pitching first. I hope beyond hope that this latest free agency isnt a change in that philosophy and I hope that they arent putting as much trust in Buchholz as it seems they are putting.

 

Buchholz is looking like he could be another Bard. If he isn't hurt then the Sox have a real problem with him. It hurt watching him pitch last night.