Official 2009-2010 Hot Stove season thread

[jacksonianmarch]

Yes' date=' or like the Guardians refusing to part with Bartolo Colon for, I believe, a very young Cliff Lee and Grady Sizemore (and one other player) because they are too young to have an immediate impact. Looking back it is foolish. With forethought it is potentially the same situation.[/quote']

 

And by them holding out, they got Brandon Phillips and completed the deal. Sometimes holding out for more is beneficial. Sometimes it isnt

[jacksonianmarch]

Things only get "fun" when the Sox start leaking who they are going after and when their cards end up on the table. I hope that they are quiet about the big moves they want to make.

 

As for Towers, I believe him and imagine that the best thing Hoyer could do would be to move AG for a huge haul. He shouldn't look at the Sox only and I don't expect that he will. However, I think the Sox could put together a really, really nice package for him. If they got anything including Kelly and Westmoreland they would be in great shape combined with the haul they got from ChiSox for Peavy. Those guys could be franchise-level talents.

 

I know people will argue that they're too far down the line to be considered great prospects, but that's a shortsighted view. Any GM who turns down great (but young) talent for lesser (but older) talent shouldn't hold his job for very long. It is the job of the franchises to scout the players and to be able to discern the TRUE "projects to be like Grady Sizemore" from the "might project like Grady Sizemore" players. Those players DO exist, there's a crop of them with every draft class and I think the Sox have a couple really, really good young players.

 

Also, if you have a moment go watch some of Adrian Gonzalez's clips on mlb.com. He's a beast who hits the ball with more ferocity than anyone on the Sox currently.

 

Take a look at what the ChiSox gave up for Peavy then consider that AGon isnt an injury liability AND he's a position player who's worth more than Peavy. Kelly and Westmoreland is a piddly package for an AGon type player. Hoyer is on a 3 yr deal with a one yr option. For his own salvation, he isnt going to want to center a trade around players that wont be debuting until his final yr of his contract. He's gonna want some now talent.

 

Think about it.

 

Young- check

Cheap- 11mil over the next 2 yrs- check

OBP- check

Power- check

Defense- check

Baggage- None

 

He's worth a TON. Get ready to back the truck up, and I guarantee Hoyer is gonna go for guys that will make Theo squirm. I think its a disadvantage for the sox. Because he knows who Theo values and who he doesnt. He knows who is good and who isnt based on not only external scouting sources, but his own internal sources. He knows which guys are changing their swings, their motions, their repertoires and may have had a down yr but its a good yr when you look at the overall progression. Thats the thing. You get sites like BA and guys like KLaw who pull scouting reports on players and then make up arbitrary lists. But they dont know the down and dirty on a player. Hoyer does.

[BSN07]

Things only get "fun" when the Sox start leaking who they are going after and when their cards end up on the table. I hope that they are quiet about the big moves they want to make.

 

As for Towers, I believe him and imagine that the best thing Hoyer could do would be to move AG for a huge haul. He shouldn't look at the Sox only and I don't expect that he will. However, I think the Sox could put together a really, really nice package for him. If they got anything including Kelly and Westmoreland they would be in great shape combined with the haul they got from ChiSox for Peavy. Those guys could be franchise-level talents.

 

I know people will argue that they're too far down the line to be considered great prospects, but that's a shortsighted view. Any GM who turns down great (but young) talent for lesser (but older) talent shouldn't hold his job for very long. It is the job of the franchises to scout the players and to be able to discern the TRUE "projects to be like Grady Sizemore" from the "might project like Grady Sizemore" players. Those players DO exist, there's a crop of them with every draft class and I think the Sox have a couple really, really good young players.

 

Also, if you have a moment go watch some of Adrian Gonzalez's clips on mlb.com. He's a beast who hits the ball with more ferocity than anyone on the Sox currently.

 

I really like what your saying here. It's a very reasonable view of things.

 

I know you like Felix too.So let me ask you this, Who would you rather have? Would rather get AG, or see a 3 team deal that lands Felix with AG going to Seattle? I'm not trying to get all " pipe dream", just who you would prefer.

[Dipre]

Take a look at what the ChiSox gave up for Peavy then consider that AGon isnt an injury liability AND he's a position player who's worth more than Peavy. Kelly and Westmoreland is a piddly package for an AGon type player. Hoyer is on a 3 yr deal with a one yr option. For his own salvation, he isnt going to want to center a trade around players that wont be debuting until his final yr of his contract. He's gonna want some now talent.

 

Think about it.

 

Young- check

Cheap- 11mil over the next 2 yrs- check

OBP- check

Power- check

Defense- check

Baggage- None

 

He's worth a TON. Get ready to back the truck up, and I guarantee Hoyer is gonna go for guys that will make Theo squirm. I think its a disadvantage for the sox. Because he knows who Theo values and who he doesnt. He knows who is good and who isnt based on not only external scouting sources, but his own internal sources. He knows which guys are changing their swings, their motions, their repertoires and may have had a down yr but its a good yr when you look at the overall progression. Thats the thing. You get sites like BA and guys like KLaw who pull scouting reports on players and then make up arbitrary lists. But they dont know the down and dirty on a player. Hoyer does.

 

The sky is blue. There is good in the world.

[BSN07]

The sky is blue. There is good in the world.

 

If the Yanks didn't have Tex, he would be right in the middle of things, saying how the Yankees can offer a better package, because they are closer to MLB ready then what the Sox could offer or something to that extent.

[Dipre]

If the Yanks didn't have Tex' date=' he would be right in the middle of things, saying how the Yankees can offer a better package, because they are closer to MLB ready then what the Sox could offer or something to that extent.[/quote']

 

That act is so tired and pathetic.

[BSN07]

That act is so tired and pathetic.

 

Who's mine or his?

[example1]

Take a look at what the ChiSox gave up for Peavy then consider that AGon isnt an injury liability AND he's a position player who's worth more than Peavy. Kelly and Westmoreland is a piddly package for an AGon type player. Hoyer is on a 3 yr deal with a one yr option. For his own salvation, he isnt going to want to center a trade around players that wont be debuting until his final yr of his contract. He's gonna want some now talent.

 

Think about it.

 

Why would he want "now" talent if that talent is inferior? Why would Hoyer think that the basis of his team woudl be build on guys who would start producing next year, before the rest of his moves have a chance to start contributing? Hoyer is smart enough to have a 3 year plan and to build on what the team will look like in a few years. I bet that he was hired for that reason, because he has more Red Sox longterm-vision in him than Yankees win-nowness.

 

Think about it.

 

Young- check

Cheap- 11mil over the next 2 yrs- check

OBP- check

Power- check

Defense- check

Baggage- None

 

He's worth a TON. Get ready to back the truck up, and I guarantee Hoyer is gonna go for guys that will make Theo squirm. I think its a disadvantage for the sox. Because he knows who Theo values and who he doesnt. He knows who is good and who isnt based on not only external scouting sources, but his own internal sources. He knows which guys are changing their swings, their motions, their repertoires and may have had a down yr but its a good yr when you look at the overall progression. Thats the thing. You get sites like BA and guys like KLaw who pull scouting reports on players and then make up arbitrary lists. But they dont know the down and dirty on a player. Hoyer does.

 

Theo will squirm if he has to give up Westmoreland and Kelly. I can assure you of that. If he gave up Westmoreland and Kelly and Bowden and Anderson he would squirm more. You undervalue some of these players and overvalue your own intellect.

 

We will see what happens, and I expect the haul for Gonzalez to be very high. At the same time, I don't think the Sox will part with Buchholz so they will be giving up their next best pieces: Westmoreland and/or Kelly.

[Dipre]

Who's mine or his?

 

His dude.

[Dipre]

Theo will squirm if he has to give up Westmoreland and Kelly. I can assure you of that. If he gave up Westmoreland and Kelly and Bowden and Anderson he would squirm more. You undervalue some of these players and overvalue your own intellect.

We will see what happens, and I expect the haul for Gonzalez to be very high. At the same time, I don't think the Sox will part with Buchholz so they will be giving up their next best pieces: Westmoreland and/or Kelly.

 

Kudos for explaining to him what a f***ing idiot he is but with some class.

[BSN07]

His dude.

 

Sorry I read it wrong, that's what I get for trying to read and write posts in between hands(playing poker).

[jacksonianmarch]

Why would he want "now" talent if that talent is inferior? Why would Hoyer think that the basis of his team woudl be build on guys who would start producing next year, before the rest of his moves have a chance to start contributing? Hoyer is smart enough to have a 3 year plan and to build on what the team will look like in a few years. I bet that he was hired for that reason, because he has more Red Sox longterm-vision in him than Yankees win-nowness.

 

Think about it.

 

 

 

Theo will squirm if he has to give up Westmoreland and Kelly. I can assure you of that. If he gave up Westmoreland and Kelly and Bowden and Anderson he would squirm more. You undervalue some of these players and overvalue your own intellect.

 

We will see what happens, and I expect the haul for Gonzalez to be very high. At the same time, I don't think the Sox will part with Buchholz so they will be giving up their next best pieces: Westmoreland and/or Kelly.

 

I am not undervaluing them example, I think you are overvaluing players who havent even established themselves at High A. Westmoreland just finished the short season league, and even though I think he has a bright future, his ETA is in about 3-4 yrs, which makes his trade value minimal to say the least. Kelly had 8 starts in High A. Neither of these guys will make meaningful impacts on the big club until at least 2012 or later.

 

There is a difference between being excited about a player and that player actually having trade value. And if I were a sox fan, I would be very excited about Westmoreland. But he hasnt even shown he can hit in the long season leagues for Christ sakes.

 

Hoyer is going to want some now talent. Buchholz may be the breaking point if he intent on getting him. Maybe Bowden and Anderson suffices for now talent and then Kelly and Westmoreland can put it over the top. Regardless, thats a ton of talent IMO. But the center of the trade will not be a 20 yr old kid who hasnt played above High A nor will it be a 19 yr old kid who hasnt played in the long season leagues

[jacksonianmarch]

Kudos for explaining to him what a f***ing idiot he is but with some class.

 

It is incredibly difficult to get through to people like you. I think example will understand what I am talking about, but I have a hard time thinking you ever will. All I can hope for is for you to actually get a job and not have talksox being your day in and day out meaningful activity

[jacksonianmarch]

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/10287694/Rosenthal:-Hudson-near-3-year-deal-with-Braves

 

Looks like Hudson is off the market

[Dipre]

It is incredibly difficult to get through to people like you. I think example will understand what I am talking about' date=' but I have a hard time thinking you ever will. All I can hope for is for you to actually get a job and not have talksox being your day in and day out meaningful activity[/quote']

 

Did you know i've been working independently for more than a month now?

 

And not emptying bedpans as a nurse at the local hospital, but hey, whatever makes you a living right?

 

Anywho, we're sick and tired of your ********.

 

When proven wrong (99% of the time) resort to IRL attacks. You don't know me, you f***ing dimwit, so go back to inserting catheters, shut your mouth, and know your role as the resident (pun intended) assclown.

[The_Destroyah]

assclown, lol, hadn't heard that one in awhile.

anyways please everyone stfu with personal attacks.

[Dipre]

assclown, lol, hadn't heard that one in awhile.

anyways please everyone stfu with personal attacks.

 

"Please everyone?"

 

Excuse me.

 

Since when did f***ing idiot translate to "You don't have a job, get a life?"

 

Tell the f***ing douchecock nurse to stop the personal attacks.

[Spudboy]

It is incredibly difficult to get through to people like you. I think example will understand what I am talking about' date=' but I have a hard time thinking you ever will. All I can hope for is for you to actually get a job and not have talksox being your day in and day out meaningful activity[/quote']

 

What exactly do you mean here Doc?

[jacksonianmarch]

I meant people like Dipre. Meant nothing racially or ethnically. Internet morons come in all shapes and colors

[Cocos Disciples]

Okay, I think we're done with this back and forth. Go watch the World Series, everyone.

[Dipre]

I meant people like Dipre. Meant nothing racially or ethnically. Internet morons come in all shapes and colors

 

The only moron here is you, bedpan emptier.

 

Not that that's a bad thing. It simply shows you didn't have the brainpower to get through med school. But we already knew that.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Count me among the amused and entertained here.

[example1]

I am not undervaluing them example' date=' I think you are overvaluing players who havent even established themselves at High A. Westmoreland just finished the short season league, and even though I think he has a bright future, his [b']ETA is in about 3-4 yrs, which makes his trade value minimal to say the least.[/b]

 

For Hoyer this trade would basically be a draft. He can look at the Red Sox roster and pick virtually any prospects that he wants.

 

Who would you ask for and in what order?

 

I think a lot of teams would ask for Westmoreland and Kelly among that group, and one of the two of them first. You think I'm overvaluing them because I think they would the first ones requested in a trade despite not having played at a very high level. I think that's absurd. You can think of prospects you wouldn't have moved, even when they were 20 years old and when they hadn't played at the highest levels yet.

 

Kelly had 8 starts in High A. Neither of these guys will make meaningful impacts on the big club until at least 2012 or later.

 

You are making two different arguments at different times:

 

1. He's at such a low level that he won't be relevant for a few years, though he is good.

2. He's too young for anyone to have any faith that he'll be good at all.

 

He didn't have 8 starts at High A because he was bad, he had them because the team is moving him through the levels just as they should. It doesn't mean he's going to be a bad player--it has no relevance to his actual value. He's progressing precisely according to plan for a 19 year old player with a $3m signing bonus.

 

Age 19 Seasons:

[table] player | Level | year | ERA | GS | IP | H | HR | BB | SO | WHIP | H/9 | HR/9 | BB/9 | K/9 | K/BB

Phil Hughes | A-A_adv| 2005 | 2.19 | 16 | 86.1 | 54 | 1 | 20 | 93 | 0.857 | 5.6 | 0.1 | 2.1 | 9.7 | 4.65

Casey Kelly | A-A_adv | 2009 | 2.08 | 17 | 95.0 | 65 | 4 | 16 | 74 | 0.853 | 6.2 | 0.4 | 1.5 | 7.0 | 4.63

[/table]

 

I would say those numbers are pretty similar. Hughes is one of the better pitching prospects in years. Kelly doesn't have to be one of the better pitching prospects in years to be a logical central piece in a deal, he just has to be potentially good.

 

 

There is a difference between being excited about a player and that player actually having trade value. And if I were a sox fan, I would be very excited about Westmoreland. But he hasnt even shown he can hit in the long season leagues for Christ sakes.

 

So he has no value? You know that's not true.

 

Hoyer is going to want some now talent. Buchholz may be the breaking point if he intent on getting him. Maybe Bowden and Anderson suffices for now talent and then Kelly and Westmoreland can put it over the top. Regardless, thats a ton of talent IMO. But the center of the trade will not be a 20 yr old kid who hasnt played above High A nor will it be a 19 yr old kid who hasnt played in the long season leagues

 

I disagree. To Hoyer, Westmoreland or Kelly would be the center of the deal, and Anderson and Bowden "suffice for now talent". Without Kelly or Westmoreland the deal wouldn't happen, and they can't be replaced with "most" 19 or 20 year old prospects. They are both singular talents who stand out among their peers. That's why they got millions of dollars from a thorough team like the Red Sox. Their numbers have supported that decision, as has the Sox history of drafting and developing players.

 

So no, the deal will not be "sold" as centered around one of those guys, but it will in actuality be centered around them, as they are the guys who it would be hardest for Theo to part with. I bet Bowden and Anderson would go really quickly.

[BSN07]

For Hoyer this trade would basically be a draft. He can look at the Red Sox roster and pick virtually any prospects that he wants.

 

Who would you ask for and in what order?

 

I think a lot of teams would ask for Westmoreland and Kelly among that group, and one of the two of them first. You think I'm overvaluing them because I think they would the first ones requested in a trade despite not having played at a very high level. I think that's absurd. You can think of prospects you wouldn't have moved, even when they were 20 years old and when they hadn't played at the highest levels yet.

 

 

 

You are making two different arguments at different times:

 

1. He's at such a low level that he won't be relevant for a few years, though he is good.

2. He's too young for anyone to have any faith that he'll be good at all.

 

He didn't have 8 starts at High A because he was bad, he had them because the team is moving him through the levels just as they should. It doesn't mean he's going to be a bad player--it has no relevance to his actual value. He's progressing precisely according to plan for a 19 year old player with a $3m signing bonus.

 

Age 19 Seasons:

[table] player | Level | year | ERA | GS | IP | H | HR | BB | SO | WHIP | H/9 | HR/9 | BB/9 | K/9 | K/BB

Phil Hughes | A-A_adv| 2005 | 2.19 | 16 | 86.1 | 54 | 1 | 20 | 93 | 0.857 | 5.6 | 0.1 | 2.1 | 9.7 | 4.65

Casey Kelly | A-A_adv | 2009 | 2.08 | 17 | 95.0 | 65 | 4 | 16 | 74 | 0.853 | 6.2 | 0.4 | 1.5 | 7.0 | 4.63

[/table]

 

I would say those numbers are pretty similar. Hughes is one of the better pitching prospects in years. Kelly doesn't have to be one of the better pitching prospects in years to be a logical central piece in a deal, he just has to be potentially good.

 

 

 

 

So he has no value? You know that's not true.

 

 

 

I disagree. To Hoyer, Westmoreland or Kelly would be the center of the deal, and Anderson and Bowden "suffice for now talent". Without Kelly or Westmoreland the deal wouldn't happen, and they can't be replaced with "most" 19 or 20 year old prospects. They are both singular talents who stand out among their peers. That's why they got millions of dollars from a thorough team like the Red Sox. Their numbers have supported that decision, as has the Sox history of drafting and developing players.

 

So no, the deal will not be "sold" as centered around one of those guys, but it will in actuality be centered around them, as they are the guys who it would be hardest for Theo to part with. I bet Bowden and Anderson would go really quickly.

 

I don't see SD having any interest at all in Anderson, with Kyle Blanks being their top prospect/Agon replacement at the moment.

 

But everything else I agree with you.

[Dipre]

I fail to see why this is even a discussion still.

 

SD's farm system and ML club are barren, this club is in a clear long-term rebuilding mode, and they're going to look for the prospects of the best quality they can get no matter the level.

 

The hypocrisy is astounding.

 

Were it the Yanks trying to trade for AGon, Jacko would have SD sending him to the Bronx for season tickets and a subscription to YES.

 

Jesus Christ.

[The_Destroyah]

I fail to see why this is even a discussion still.

 

SD's farm system and ML club are barren, this club is in a clear long-term rebuilding mode, and they're going to look for the prospects of the best quality they can get no matter the level.

 

The hypocrisy is astounding.

 

Were it the Yanks trying to trade for AGon, Jacko would have SD sending him to the Bronx for season tickets and a subscription to YES.

 

Jesus Christ.

 

and a New York City hotdog from Gom's greasy uncle's Hotdog stand.

[BSN07]

I fail to see why this is even a discussion still.

 

SD's farm system and ML club are barren, this club is in a clear long-term rebuilding mode, and they're going to look for the prospects of the best quality they can get no matter the level.

 

The hypocrisy is astounding.

 

Were it the Yanks trying to trade for AGon, Jacko would have SD sending him to the Bronx for season tickets and a subscription to YES.

 

Jesus Christ.

 

That and a pic of Kate Hudson having her way with Arod's brown eye... How could SD pass that up?

[Paradisecity]

That and a pic of Kate Hudson having her way with Arod's brown eye... How could SD pass that up?

 

That might actually have value if the market wasn't already flooded with scary disgusting A-Rod photos.

[BSN07]

That might actually have value if the market wasn't already flooded with scary disgusting A-Rod photos.

 

[ehaz]

Translation:

 

He sees him signing with the Yankees, so buy into the hype now.

 

I say pass. No thanks.

 

I wouldn't be so sure about him signing with the Yankees. He just had a meeting with the Red Sox, and apparently came away very impressed: "“Boston was one of the teams he was interested in from the start, and that certainly hasn’t changed,’’ said Chapman’s agent, Edwin Mejia. “It was a very good visit.’’" Also, for what it's worth his agent Mejia is a graduate of Boston Latin, UMass Amherst and Boston University law school. And don't forget the Red Sox recently signed Chapman's fellow countryman and former teammate, Jose Iglesias.